Goatwuss,
When you compared the Basis and PS Audio GCPH, did you run the same loading on the cartidge for both preamps? I know the GCPH has a number of loading options, and the sound can change dramatically depending on the cartridge. What loading did you use when comparing the two and what cartridge? |
Coincident Statement Phono Stage. Astonishing!
From an ex-owner of Aesthetix, Manley, K&K and Walker reference phono stages, to name a few. |
Dear Andromeda,
I had the Nagra but only for a short while. Maybe I sold too early but I had the impression it didn't reach to my Kondos (M 7) and my Lamm. This was before I improved the Lamm. Of course you need to wait until all new parts and caps are running smooth but I was a bit dissapointed with the tiny Nagra's SUTs and to my knowledge they also changed something on the design later on. |
Hi Andromeda, Lamm posted on audiomarkt is my one. Will sell it for an upgrade to the Omnigon. Mods let it sound cleaner and more detailed. |
Thuchan, heradot , thanks for the input , there is actually a modded LAMM for sale now on audiomarkt.
Have you any idea what makes it different from the nagra ?
I like speed , dynamics and clean sound.
I will defenitely go also up in the london range , a ref later this year as |
I agree with the earlier callouts on the Herron phono stages. I owned the VTPH-1mc+ and thought it was awesome. With a Benz low output moving coil, it performed better in my system that a Fosgate Signature that I had and then sold (Fosgate was awesome...LF/HF extension, aesthetics, etc. but I think my output was too low to fully realize it's abilities). I then upgraded to the VTPH-2. Even better -- larger (deeper, taller, wider) sound stage, more transparent, and equally quiet (no tube rush whatsover). Add to this that Keith Herron is superbly committed to his products and customers to a heroic level, and the Herron gear gets my vote. |
Thuchan is right. Lamm is quite hard to beat after doing some small modifications end spending a fine matched quad WE's 417A. Rgds, Marco |
The Lamm will become an extraordinary MM & MC phono stage if you do some small changes, especially on the tubes, caps, connector plugs and SUTs. If you are using the MM input with a London Reference it is just great but also with matching external SUTs this will be a benchmark phono stage, sometimes underrated and possibly not equipped with the best possible ingredients by the manufacturer. |
another vote for the Whest Audio PS.30RDT Special Edition and what I now own which is their MC REF V MK4. Excellent all discrete Class-A no BS stage which sounds unlike any SS state I compared it to. gain and load from the factory can be changed on request before shipping. |
Another vote for the TRON Seven.
Top class sounding tube phono stage with real quality build and bespoke components. Built to order and so you can specify MC gain, cartridge loading etc. |
I actually want to skip the sut s .
Im becoming quite fond of the London moving iron i have , i think thats the future not mc s .
If i buy a zanden 1200 i have to use the step up even if i dont need the gain.
So i can conclude that the kondo mm , lamm mm and maybe the zanden (1000) mm are good choices and others probably .
I now have the nagra via mm out , i dont know what exactly i will gain switching to another mm stage.
I have a good gut feeling about the zanden 1000 though as i m quit fond of their model 3000.
The lamm will be by far the cheapest choice. |
A lot of tube units are basically tube MM stages with a SUT used to provide the higher gain needed for LOMC. Exceptions, like the Aesthetix Io, have a whole lot of tubes to provide more the extra gain through active stages.
I like tube stages with SUT, provided that the transformer is really good. The Kondo is a good example. I think the SUT in the Audionote (uk) units are really terrific too. One can actually buy their transformers separately, though the top model is extremely pricey. I heard a custom-made stage using their best transformer and it is amazing. |
I took home an ASR Mini Basis Exclusive to compare to my PS Audio GCPH. I wasn't planning on making a change at all, but it sounded night & day so much better that I bought one.
Compared to the ASR, the PS audio sounded thin and compressed. If you're looking for a stage in the $2-4k range I'd suggest checking it out. Very open sound and rich without being too euphonic.
I also compared to the phono in my Supratek Syrah - and though this was a closer comparison, the ASR was still more open, rich and dynamic. This stage really brought my vinyl playback up a few notches in enjoyment for me. |
And a 1100 series , which is the mono version but thats not what im in for at the moment |
Andromedaaudio,
you`re right. with the normal model you only have the chance to bypass by change the circuit around the SUTs which should be possible, at least for one channel.
If you wanna use a SUT go for the Kondo or the Lamm - both are brilliant in connection with SUTs. |
I have a question for the high $$$ phono amp specialists .
Does the zanden model 1200 have a way not using the step up transformers .
As i can read on the zanden site is that the 1200 has a low gain 56 dB and and a high gain 68 dB mc phono out
Can you bay pass the step up for only mm tube section gain ?.
They also sell a model 1000 phono amp which has 33 dB of gain , i suppose that consists of a tube amplification (MI/MM ) section only , but the site is not clear about that .
greetz h j |
11flat6- you see it on my page. best ingredients, short signal way. I can show you more images, also of the interior when you send me an e-mail.
If you really want to go for it I can bring you in contact with the producer. |
Larryi: yr description of the Lyra phonostage is spot on.
Thuchan: i'll most likely add at least 1 more phonostage, but the Uniswitch you've mentioned does sound very interesting. would you happen to hv a link? |
11flat - you can solve your output limitation by using a purely silver wired switcher like the Uniswitch, in this case you may connect three tonearms with your Lyra-C. |
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1 1flat6,
I have only briefly heard the Lyra phonostage and I thought it was terrific--VERY dynamic and lively, and at the same time, harmonically dense and rich (something that is almost never achieved, particularly with solid state). It is too bad that RoHS regulations have made it impossible for Lyra Connoisseur to get the parts to continue to manufacture that item.
Perhaps your second phonostage should be something that offers differing equalization options, like the Zanden, since you are exploring ways to listen to a range of vintage pressings. The Boulder offers different equalization options as well as a host of other features and adjustment options (I don't like the sound of the Boulder at all, but, that is a matter of personal taste).
As for tube-based options, I own, and like very much, the Viva Fono. The downside, for experimentation, is that it offers no adjustability. I have changed loading, but to do so, I opened it up to change the resistor wired across the input jack (primary side loading of the input step up transformer). The Viva is not cheap, but then again, you are looking at some pretty pricey items. |
hi Soundlistening,
thk you for yr detailed reply. i currently use a Lyra Connoisseur 4-2P SE. fantastic phono stage but only has 1 input, & therefore rather troublesome to switch cables every time i switch tonearms.
it's interesting that you mentioned "pressing eras". i'm trying a little experiment whereby a diff cartridge/tonearm is set up & optimized for a diff pressing era. it would seem logical (perhaps borderline obsessive?) to extend this reasoning thru to the phono stage, & hence my interest in a 2nd phono stage.
this 2nd phono stage will primarily be used with my "late mono" (SME 3012/R + Ortofon Mono SPU CG25 DI mk.2) & "early stereo" (F.Research FR-66s + FR-7f) setups, & any experience/feedback you might hv with either of these combinations paired with Kondo M7 Phono, Lamm LP2, &/or Zanden 1200 would be of great interest to me.
btw, i do own a Kondo Ongaku & a wide range of NOS tubes (incl. GE 5 star w/triple mica, & Tungsol 5687 input tubes you've mentioned). all tubes sound different, but i generally agree Kondo's stock input tubes are pretty good (NOS rectifier & output tubes can however bring significant improvements across the board - at least in the context of Ongaku & Gakuon). but i think this is digressing fm the phono stage discussion... |
I really like the sound and convenience of my PS Audio GCPH. My prior reference was a McCormack Phono Drive. Otherwise I have used various phono inputs on preamps, Cambridge p640, parasound ph100, nad and project phono preamps and Bellari VP530. |
I just had the opportunity to audition the Ypsilon step up transformer and phono stage in comparison to the balanced version of the Einstein phono stage. As good as the Einsrein is, the Ypsilon was in a different class, lovely tonality, excellent depth and dynamics. |
Soundlistening,
I can support your findings, even without SUT the Kondo phono stage delivers a wonderful sound. I tried it with the London Reference in a FR-66s - gosh, what a feeling! |
11flat6,
The Kondo had standard tubes. Depending on when they are built these can be EH (Gold pins) or even JJ ones....crazy and makes you wonder if all the hype on NOS tubes is real??? Anyway I have played with Kondo preamps, like Ongaku, Gakuon, Kegon and the likes..best results I ever got are with balanced and matched tubes from a decent source. Have used GE 5 stars 6072's, Tungsols;;;;and whilst good they do not deliver quite as good as good tubes that are matched an balanced. Kondos come with matched and balanced.
Cartridges ranged from Sony XL55pro to FR7's, Ortofon A90, Kondo IO, EMT 15's...so quite a range.
SUT used were FR, Kondo and Ortofon in varied not alaways prefectly matched but sill in any of the configurations the Kondo killed the others. The kondo seemed so fast, musical and just plain balanced.
The needles were digging into post 70's pressings. This may be a matter to consider if you are going for a second phono. What era records to you offer your ears? I do consider that the EMT 139st is a true gem with its options, mono/stereo, curves...when using EMT carts, made to match. But this is for older recordings/pressings pre 70's.
Kondo or even EMT is serious money. I have the M77 premap and must admit that if Kondo do one thing well it is their phono. Have the 927 with original but serviced (by Dusch) 13çst phono this is also silly good and plain simple stuff.
I guess it comes down to your focus in records and music. One of my very good audio friends is deep into more recent recordings, my pressings will not shine as well on his decks and that truth holds the other way round.
TG |
Threshold Fet-10PC and maybe the Precision Fidelity C/7A Revised; Boulder Phono |
Friend lent it to me its the best i have heard!! |
Ebm
Did you just get one. I am thinking of adding the Tron Seven Ultimate as second phono to go with my Syren. |
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I have 45 hours on my new ARC PH-8. This is a must audition piece if you're considering a phono in this price range. Fantastic! |
I heard the following system yesterday: Herron VTPH-2, Herron VTSP-3a, Herron M-1, Herron speakers, VPI Classic 2 and AT-OC9MLII.
I have heard nothing better, nothing that even approaches this set-up. Not even close.
I can't say that the VTPH-2 made all the difference, but it was an integral part of the system. I was shocked with what it did with only an AT-OC9.
Keith Herron isn't at CES or T.H.E.Show this year due to an injury. Too bad others don't get to share this listening experience. |
My new Whest Audio MC REF V MK4. By far the very best stage I have had the pleasure of having in my system - and believe me I have had a lot!
The unit is dynamic, detailed, has space and freaky reality and is utterly MUSICAL! and also works amazingly with the Ortofon A90, a match made in heaven.
4 thumbs up for the Whest. |
hi Soundlistening,
was wondering if you could elaborate on yr phono stage shootout?! what cartridge did you use, & in what ways was Kondo M7 Phono superior over the others? did the M7 contain stock tubes?
i'm considering getting a 2nd phono stage. 2 of the units you've mentioned are on my shortlist. appreciate any insight. thks in advance. |
Over one week end with a good fiend we compared the Zanden, Boulder, Kondo, Lamm phono-stages. The clear winner was the Kondo for all the 6 ears that attended this very exceptional session. I would also add the EMT139stb with its PS unit firm Van Vliet in NL. I know this phono fitted to an EMT 927; very good indeed with the possibility to switch mono/stereo and also curve selection; NARTB, DIN, RIAA and plat.
So Kondo and EMT 139stb |
The Threshold Fet 10 PC gets my vote. This is one outstanding Phono Pre. |
Precision Fidelity C7/A Revised: Passive line stage with phono. This instrument pretty much stays out of the way. |
I must say I am really digging my Audio Note Kits phono pre decked out with all the options. Same circuit as the M3, I believe. It's everything you'd want in a tube phono pre. And only about $1200 new.
Building your own stuff is a great way to get off the gear-trading merry-go, since you don't want to sell it, generally. Upgrade it, maybe. |
Vintage PS Audio PSIII
i have one and it's pretty fantastic. from about 1979 or so. actually never had any of the more modern or expensive Phono Pre's...
if they are half as good as this i'd be surprised. i watch for these and there have been several on eBay lately. i actually lost (or partially lost) an auction for one along with the matching Linear Control Center Pre Amp last year... |
Lewm,
The Klyne was excellent back then but now has easily surpassed by the much cheaper Einstein. The ASR has a barely acceptable above the average performance, equal of the best of the TEADs also they doesn't worth the asking price.
The Krell KPE+PSU is simply unlistenable.
Most of the tube units that I've heard have some problems with detail perhaps the printed circuit boards gives some parasitic capacitance so, I would suggest a point to point wiring inside. Keep in mind that tube rolling is a must for tuning about body & weight so, maybe to focus for max detail in the stock tubed units. |
I have heard the AMR a number of times and it would seem to me Downunder's story is a perfect illustration of dealers (or indeed representatives at shows) not always taking the necessary care to show the gear at its best. In fairness to dealers, it is of course not really possible to build perfect systems around every single component they have in their product range. Especially the observation that the PH-77 was "more mechanical", is a smoking gun, though (no AMR gear sounds mechanical or at least it shouldn't).
The first time, I heard the PH-77 was in a system with a Montegiro Legno table (don't recall the cart), AM-77 amp, Marten Coltrane Momento and Jorma cable loom and it sounded, well, "merely" very good. The most recent session was a system with Dr. Feickert Woodpecker with Lyra cart, AMR-77, Kiso HB1 monitors and selected cabling built by ... Thomas Fast, and that is precisely where the difference lies! Thomas is one of those people that will go any length to ensure the gear he presents can go to the "beauty contest". Matter of fact, Downunder's description of the ARC's virtues will then fit perfectly to the AMR.
Moral of the story: our own system will be decisive in the end.
Btw: in a much more affordable price bracket (EUR 2k), I hope to hear the B.M.C. Phono MCCI soon, supposed to be a dramatic overachiever. Anyone heard it yet?
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Has anyone here heard the Airtight ATE-2005 phono stage ?? |
Gents, take my thoughts on the AMR with a grain of salt, as it still sounded good. I heard it in the store with unfamilar equipment(horns), however unfortunately you cannot hear everything at home.
I did compare the AMR directly with the Air tight phono and Leben phono. the Air tight was more natural and 3d sounding. The AMR for such an expensive tube unit, was a little more mechanical in the upper frequencies vs the Air Tight
The AMR does have infinite flexibilty, so it should be able to be tweaked to sound better. However, I was really interested in the AMR and it just did not do it for me to investigate further.
Clearly if one can listen to the AMR at home, that is better.
The ARC ref2 OTOH was really good and sounded "musically right". Only thing lacking for me was a slight tonal weight in the bass - however the unit I listened to at home only had 150-200 hours on it. supposed to get more weight at 300-400 hours.
cheers |
The AMR was designed and in part executed by Thorsten Loesch, a guru of tube DIY people. It has many highly desirable build features not found in most commercial products, e.g., a choke-loaded power supply, true dual mono, etc. Also it has that amazing adjustability for playback compensation, and for cap and resistor loading. I take your opinion seriously, Downunder. Too bad the AMR did not fare better in your opinion. But do you think the difference you heard might have been due to auditioning the AMR in an unfamiliar system, compared to your home system? |
I have heard the AMR in a great shop and the ARC ref2 at home for a week.
IMO, the ARC ref2 is easily the better and the more musical sounding player. It really is superb, a really transparent and refined set of upper fruencies coupled with the best placement of instruments and effects that floats in a 3d soundstage I have ever heard. |
Thanks, guys. I am sure that both the ARC and the AMR are wonderful, based on a slew of favorable comments, but they are goddawful expensive, not within my budget for a secondary phono stage. I am trying to stay at or under $2500; way under that amount would be better. |
Lewm, another machine that does what you are looking for is the AMR PH-77: 23 equalisation curves, 8 gain levels between 30dB and 72dB, 64 load options (here is the specs sheet: AMR PH-77). And it sounds heavenly. |
I have a lot of early to mid-50s jazz LPs (including the sublime Ella and Louis recordings) that are not cut to RIAA specs, so adjustable compensation is very appealing as well. Lately I've been using the ARC Ref Phono 2 with the MP-1. It is v quiet and lets you switch it between RIAA, Decca and Columbia curves. Definitely worth a listen if you can get a loaner. |
Fcrowder made the very good point that only a very few of us are qualified to say that this or that phono stage is "best", because most of us have a very limited listening experience with a wide variety of the "best" phono stages. This hasn't prevented subsequent posters from making absolutist claims. That's OK by me; it shows real enthusiasm and delight. And some guys have owned an impressive number of different top notch phono stages, so their opinion carries some weight, As for me, I would need to hear more different phono stages in a controlled environment before making such a claim, though I remain a devotee of the Atma-sphere MP1.
One issue for me is the question of the fundamental difference in sound (if there is such) between solid state and tube phono stages. I have yet to be blown away by a solid state phono, but I certainly have an open mind on the subject. I should, because I have not heard Connoisseur, Boulder, MBL, ASR, Pass, Essential Audio, Klyne, etc. I own a solid state Ayre P5Xe, which is very nice but a bit lacking in the ability to convey the excitement of music, as compared to the MP1. I have heard that tweaking the Ayre can boost its performance considerably. One guy I met at RMAF built an external PS for his. On the subject of Klyne, there has not been much mention of it in this thread. Is this because it seems to have been discontinued? Is Klyne still making new units or just repairing and occasionally upgrading their old ones? My new found interest in vintage phono cartridges makes me yearn for a unit with externally adjustable loading both for capacitance and resistance. I have a lot of early to mid-50s jazz LPs (including the sublime Ella and Louis recordings) that are not cut to RIAA specs, so adjustable compensation is very appealing as well. Has anyone heard the Krell (please forgive me) KPA? It sports variable bass and treble roll-off. Was also looking at Yamaha C2A and Accuphase C200X, very vintage pieces that have these features too. |
Very happy with my new Fosgate phono stage. Its got maybe 30 hours or so on it, not overly romantic or soft tube sound but sure not sterile either with nice body to instruments and voices, exellent timbre, excellent soundstage and imaging.But my main criteria is I ENJOY hearing MUSIC through it! The chain is TW Akustic Raven One with Ortofon 12 inch arm and Dynavector 20xl cart and Synergistic Research Tricon Analog tonearm cable, going to the Fosgate, then on to a Joule Electra LA-150 Mk2 via Purist Audio Venustas IC's, and out to the Belles 350A amp. Speakers are Unity Audio Signature 3 wired with Acoustic Zen Shotgun bi-wire cables.--Mrmitch |
