From logical stand point the most expensive , factory amplified home speakers can't exceed ~20k USD. But music is emotional thing , that's why we cant understand and agree each others :)
Speakers and amplifiers show audiophiles are confused.
An audiophile buys a pair of speakers for $50K or $100K then asks what amps make them sound best. That’s about as smart as marrying a girl without knowing her personality. What are the specs that will insure your expensive new speakers and amps will work optimality with each other? There’s got to be an app for that, well no there isn’t because there are too many variables and companies don’t present their specs in a standard ways. Why is it that speaker and amplifier manufactures don’t recommend specific amps for their speakers? Beyond power, impedance, and making your own crossovers how do you choose amplifiers to get all the potential out of your speakers?
95 responses Add your response
@dedobot Music is emotional but can you think of any other hobby that so much money is spent on guesses. At least in gambling you might get a payoff. Manufactured are simply taking advantage of audiophiles, could be that the super cheep audio equipment coming in from China may change the culture between manufacturer and buyers. |
Manufactured are simply taking advantage of audiophiles No, you are not a victim. You jumped into this hobby and figured your pro chops would transfer quickly, they didn't. No one took advantage of you (accept maybe that killer speaker salesman who sold you passive speakers, which you already knew weren't as good as actives). Don't slime the industry because you didn't know there was a learning curve. BTW, look forward to hearing your adventures when you get back from Axpona. |
spending a zillion dollars means better equipment. Because once the audiophile handed the money over, s/he is attached to the idea that the money equaled sound quality. It's in the contract. In many ways, it's like a painting. The more expansive it is, the more valuable it is to its owner. Perception-wise, that is. |
Because once the audiophile handed the money over, s/he is attached to the idea that the money equaled sound quality. I haven't noticed that on this forum, most members seem to advocate auditioning equipment using 30-60 day return policies. I do agree that people have biases re: equipment (tube vs solid state, etc). I have also noticed a passion among the DIY crowd to upgrade vintage or inexpensive gear. |
@grislybutter That's exactly what I'm saying, no one would buy a Lamborghini without knowing how the engine worked in the car, audiophiles buy the engine after they buy the car and cross their fingers how it will drive. I have a very nice sports car an AMG GT C Roadster it is a masterpiece of design. I've spent much more money on my sound system than that car and I'm expected to buy amps that are to be married with the speakers with no corresponding stats that will ensure the speakers and amps work together with the best performance, crazy. @kota1 I did find a mistake when my electrician installed an extra power circuit for my listening room. I never thought professionals would make a mistake like that so I never thought to double check their work. My Paradigm 9hs have much more bass now, yes the powered low end sections work as they should. The strange thing was that my PS audio power regenerators (2x P20s) use the ground in which they are given and that was the problem so the phase of the power was incorrect with ½ of my amplifiers and there was voltage between the ground and neutral that were plugged into my new power circuit, never assume people know what they are doing I guess is the moral of that story. I'm really excited to listen to 200+ systems at AXPONA in the next few days I'll let you know which ones are the most impressive. |
@donavabdear , this reeks of insecurity. Any car buff knows exactly to the bolt what he is buying. Most of the people who buy expensive sports cars could care less. They are not buying a car, they are buying cloths. Any self respecting sports car buff buys a 911. The same holds true of Luxury Audio. Those buying it have no idea what they are listening to. They are buying jewelry. If they knew what they were listening to they would never spend that kind of money on silliness like chassis that are 2 inches thick. Any HiFi buff worth his or her salt knows exactly what they are doing and has no problem matching amps to speakers. If you do not know what you are doing, love music and know what you are listening to, find someone who does know what they are doing, who is not in the position of selling you ANYTHING. Never buy anything from a human that is trying to sell you on anything. Humans are far too dangerous for that. Know what you want first then get the best price you can. |
@mijostyn Perfect then, what is the objective formula to choose an amplifier that will work in getting the most potential out of a speaker? You call me insecure, nope I have nothing to prove to anyone. Let's hear it. |
Never buy anything from a human that is trying to sell you on anything. Humans are far too dangerous for that. Know what you want first then get the best price you can. DON’T watch TV, DON’T turn on the internet, DON’T read anything with ads, and have someone sort all of you mail for junk before looking at it. This is ridiculous, "If we asked people what they want they would have said faster horses" Henry Ford As for sales people, I don’t own any Apple products but could listen to Steve Jobs pitch them to me and be captivated. Steve introducing the iPhone in 2007: |
@grislybutter LOL I've had a few very nice conversations with 911 owners that will follow me into a grocery store and comment on my car. Great people who love performance and great design. |
@kota1 unless AXPONA changes my mind I'm going to get the HiFi Rise to go with my new PS Audio DAC mk2. I've never bought a piece of audio equipment of any kind because of a salesmen. Can't wait to see how my system stacks up to the ones at AXPONA. |
Sounds like fun, remember to check out the Carver room and Bryston, hopefully Bryston will be demoing their active speakers. I bought my first pair of decent speakers thanks to a good salesman who steered me to a brand from the UK I had never heard of, Mission. I still have a warm spot for that brand. I like competent sale people because they know their gear and generally save me time, even over the phone (audioadvisor, crutchfield, etc). |
@grislybutter I think great cars and great audio have a lot in common. It is interesting that a car will get you from a to b and a sound system will let you hear the music but we pay for the the magic in the design. I know I've driven my AMG-GTc more than the designer just like audiophiles will take an audio system further than the mix engineer.
|
@donavabdear very true. In the late 90s I became an avid user of a software and had to meet with the developers and architects often. They couldn't believe how much I got out of it and how much I knew - more than them, which seemed impossible. I had workflows they never imagined and I used bugs as features that they then grabbed and implemented as features. Never underestimate the power the the inquiring mind :) |
@kota1, buy the time Henry started making cars there was already a blooming race car industry and hand made cars for the wealthy. What people would have said was "cheaper cars so we can have fun also." Henry was a vicious antisemite and a hitler supporter. If Ford was the last car on earth I would resort to riding my bike. I do not watch TV or read adds. Marketing is nothing but the art of lying. Only Biden is better at it. @donavabdear, the 911 comment was tongue in cheek coming from a 911 junkie . You know darn well you have your AMG because it drives better than most cars and I shall assume you also love driving. I just drove an AMG E 63 Wagon. JEEZE what a wagon. Poor Lewis though. Stuck with a sh-tty car. Life in F1. Hopefully, he does not switch teams. That is what killed Senna. The art of choosing an amplifier is first, understand the characteristics of the speakers you have chosen, always first. You are not going to put a SET under speakers with an efficiency of 84 dB/Watt/Meter. I went down the ESL road in 1979 and know what has always worked best, very large class A designs. I won't look at anything else. Read reviews and get a feel for the amps in contention. Look at what the majority of the users of your speakers like. I won't trust any one person's advice. Look at the largest population you can. For some people cost has to be a factor. They are limited to what they can or will afford. A system's primary signature is the speakers and the room they are in, not the amplifier. You have to factor in your preferences. Some people have to have a tube amp. Some people like me are prone to turning the knob all the way up. We need a bigger amp. Listen and look. You do not have to have ears to see if an amp is well constructed. Chances are you will not be able to hear the amp on your speakers, but if they do a good job on the type of speaker you have you will be OK. Lastly, be willing to make mistakes. I have made plenty. I call them learning experiences. @grislybutter , I have my eye on the MC 20 Cielo. Beautiful thing. The 911 is special because you can drive it every day. You can put a weeks worth of groceries in the back. You can put your bicycles and skies on top. You can drive the all wheel drive versions in the winter time without worrying about swapping ends. I do mine. It is not IMHO a thing of beauty. The newer ones are way too sophisticated. A 911 is supposed to be on the rustic side, like a GT3 with a manual tranny. The MC 20 Ceilo is a thing of beauty. You don't even have to drive it, Just looking at it will do. @secretguy, no comment.
|
so until about 15 years ago I was not a 911 fan. I thought the design was bland. But it grew on me, while I am still not crazy about it but I get it. It's lines are smooth as butter, clean and efficient. And then I drove one and I understood why it's so popular. It's not complicated like most Italian cars, reliable and still fun. The Cielo is beautiful. I am a big Biturbo fan and of its descendants in the 90s. I like the unassuming look and the wild ride, when all your passengers are screaming and reaching for your neck, but they are too busy holding onto the edge of their seat.... |
As a manufacturer and repair company we get to hear more than our share of equipment. Specs don't really work and can be used as a guide but that won't guarantee success. We recently repaired a SET amp 28wpc that drove the heck out of a pair of vandersteen sevens at 83db. So like already mentioned above trial and error baby!
|
So I'm about to register for AXPONA, I came here for only one reason to listen. Now everyone is saying you can't judge the system because of the bad acoustics of the listening rooms. @kota1 can find anything on the internet I don't need information or stats. The rooms cost $4k to rent so why not bring some acoustic material, no one expects perfection but if I can't listen why come here? |
I would venture to say that every system out there where the owner thinks he has matched the components perfectly, there is a similarly priced piece that said owner would like even more. So has he really matched them perfectly? Of course he has , until he finds something he likes more. The answer to this question is , in my opinion, you audition if you can, buy and resell if you can’t , until you’re happy, rightly or wrongly, with what you’ve come up with. The idea that there exists , the ability to make an app for this process, or that anyone can tell with certainty what anyone else should have, is bordering on preposterous. |
Screw what "everyone" says, the experience will give you a bar, not perfection. You also will have the ability to tap into knowledge of other people at the show, the vendors, and the dealers. Not everyone will have a bad room, not to worry. You will also find word of mouth spreads quickly to what rooms are "must see". Take a look at this review of last years show: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/my-best-of-axpona-demonstration-list/ |
donavabdear, this is the second thread I've noticed where you tell audiophiles how confused they are. I don't question your experience in professional circles, but this is a hobby. Audiophiles do audio for pleasure. The proper way to do the hobby is the way which provides the greatest pleasure to the individual audiophile. Just because many of us do not do audio your way does not mean we are confused or that we are doing it wrong. Lighten up, man. Let us have our fun as we choose. |
@kingharold Ya know I think you're right, I do need to lighten up. I really got the wrong ideas about audiophiles I now think it's not about the search for the bet sound it simply a hobby like you said, there are so many obviously silly things audiophiles do but I'm now realizing that's ok. Today I asked a super duper expensive cable company how their cables make a difference when the power gets to the house then out of the wall socket via a small connection with an Edison plug then connected to an amp then to a fuse then PC tracers or internal cables that aren't near as good as the cable you're selling? He said I have no idea I'm an engineer (for the company) doesn't seem possible to me. We laughed and I said thanks for the honesty. I guess that was an audiophile moment. Thanks for being kind @kingharold |
@kingharold Also here at AXPONA it is clear there is a world of BS that the marketeers feed to the people, some of the most expensive systems sounded horrible and it wasn't the rooms they were huge and sounded fine. There were million dollar systems that were so bad I wondered if they were a joke, really. One smaller system obviously had something wrong with it at about 2k it was probably 18db to hot clearly a problem. I mentioned it to one of the people who worked there and he said he knew but that's how the boss wanted it, so strange. There are companies taking advantage of audiophiles but I'm not going to gripe about it anymore because I'm turning over a new leaf. (I hope) |
some of the most expensive systems sounded horrible and some of the less expensive systems can sound great. That is the thing I like about this hobby, the "hacks" where you can leverage your investment. Sitting on my porch yesterday with just an $800 pair of deftech active speakers (the W7) which are basically 8 inch cubes and having them sound HUGE because of the tri-polar design offering accurate sound that’s widely dispersed, in the worst conditions, a porch surrounded by picture windows is just fun. The speaker has an intelligent design that allows it to sound much more expensive in a terrible room, even streaming spotify. That just makes my day:
|
@donavabdear I have been to AXPONA a few times, and I heard some expensive Focal speakers that sounded terrible the first time and very good the second time I heard them, so there are a number of factors that can cause this, not just the room or the equipment, but sometimes the people setting it up. |
@kota1 so I spoke to Dave an engineer from Bryson unfortunately they didn't have their powered systems here so we talked about powered speakers and active crossovers he fully agreed that's how high end systems should be designed. He interestedly said their system was more expensive to build and design the said the crossovers were $4k and many people thought that was to much, I got the impression that he didn't have high hopes for the future. He knew how it should go just as you and I would agree but that philosophy doesn't seem to be so popular now. I also spake to Bill who makes "Add Power" for quite a while, sorry my friend he is playing on the outskirts of science, maybe his device works but it's not for the reason he gave me, he was a very nice guy. |
Sounds like a good time, I understand Dave’s issue, there is always a dynamic between engineering and sales. Glad to hear he agrees that active is the best way to go. I would love to get a Bryston matched system of the Active Mini T’s and the Bryston SP4 processor which eliminates the need for the Bax-1 digital crossover. The video I saw of the Cabasse room was amazing, a small pair of active speakers that sounded HUGE and clear and less than $3K for everything. Glad you got to connect with Bill, I guess the outskirts must work for me, YMMV. I don’t see Nordost as a company that could be bamboozled and they bought Bill's last company, QRT. They must like the outskirts too: https://novo.press/nordost-qrt-power-products-review-part-1-of-3-qx-power-purifiers-qx4/ |
My favorite speakers at AXPONA were the Wilson Alexia v at $67K the Wilson Alexx Vs sounded best but are more than twice the price. The Magico's were great and the Sonus Faber Aida's were disappointing. Bryston and Carver didn't have their own rooms they were parts of other manufactures so they weren't really featured. As I said the most surprising speakers were called Title that were powered by Bryston amps, also the JBL speakers were great, I was walking buy and remembered the sound from studios I heard 30 years ago in the studios and so I walked in and sure enough it was JBL speakers they were made just like old ones were, but at about 1/8th the price.
|
@donavabdear wrote:
Makes you wonder, in the greater scheme of things, why people would quibble about a @4k expense for an active crossover; likely the least expensive component of the bunch, and one that - as an actively configured setup - is wholly indispensable, absolutely vital to and at the heart of what determines the sound. So, what’s the alternative - being happy about the revealed $4k price of a Duelund-equipped passive crossover instead (I’m sure many would choose to brag about that rather than take issue with it)? It’s like complaining about a component, the all-important speaker processor not least, because it doesn’t hold any gadget value (or otherwise escapes understanding of its mere function), while in reality it’s the one component that co-shares in shaping the whole of the sound in a place in the audio chain much more suitable compared to the output side of the amp. In all fairness I believe an active crossover could be even cheaper while maintaining sound quality here, but that’s hardly the general incentive behind the whining of DSP pricing. It’s missing the bigger picture, that’s what it is.
Bryston shouldn’t bow to the anti-trend of active, but rather go all-in and show them why active needs more attention. Coming down to it though one can’t blame the manufacturer for being pessimistic about the future of this approach, when the response that meets them is one of overall indifference. |
@phusis obviously you are an above average audiophile. I came back from AXPONA amazed at the BS that was knee deep. The engineers were legit but the sales people (with a few great exceptions) were generally all making the mistake that the speakers were somehow in charge or could fix the studio mix. Strangest thing, it was funny that I was with an engineer who had mixed and owned studios for 50 years last week and he had the opposite view his first thought was "you never fix it in the mix" meaning the sound is made in the recording not the mix and it would be absurd to think the speakers had anything to do with the sound of the recording. From a professional perspective the end user sound system is simply a looking glass into the studio, this may be why there are so few musician and audio engineer audiophiles. Your arguments are exactly right and it astounds me that more people don't understand what you are saying and what Bryson is trying to do. Fighting a religion is never very rewarding. |
I was walking buy and remembered the sound from studios I heard 30 years ago in the studios and so I walked in and sure enough it was JBL speakers they were made just like old ones were, but at about 1/8th the price. I like it! I have JBL’s in the man cave, the Studio 2 series and I wouldn’t change it out for anything, no matter how much $$$. Do you remember what series you listened to? They have a line of "classic"/retro speakers and a new active model just came out. You can find JBL’s at discounts frequently. The Studio 5 series were designed by Greg Timbers based on compression drivers. The Studio 2 series was the first series to use the trickle down tech from the M2 flagship. If I were shopping for towers I would take the 590’s in a snap, such a great price at half off: https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STUDIO+590.html
and the 550P sub, just ridiculous. I feel like buying two of them and upgrading my room to 4 subs just in principle at this price: https://www.jbl.com/home-audio/SUB+550P.html?cgid=home-audio
|
Hi @kota1 The speakers were the L100s they had another pair in the room that were a little smaller but both sounded great and had that compression driver tone that only JBL has it was great! After listening to literally hundreds of speakers you get a very clear average even among the uber expensive speakers the JBLs were a breath of fresh air, sounding different may not be so good but the sound of those was wonderful and didn’t have that horrible nasal sound that to small of a midrange driver gives, JBL has always been cutting edge in research and acoustics it showed. You know I went to the show to listen to the Sonus Faber Aidas and they were set up with the best of everything probably the 2nd most expensive setup of the show at about 1.3M the next door over was the Wilsons Alexx V and the Wilson Alexia V, the Alexia V had tube amps and they sounded the best the Alexx Vs had more sheer ripping low end but the Alexa Vs at half the price were more musical. Amazing how much difference amps make teemed up with the right speaker. |
I know there are more expensive speakers but when you have something you like so much like JBL it would be a lateral move, not really an upgrade. The L100 are about $2000 a pair and I have seen them on sale for less. I know my 230’s are amp sensitive as they REALLY open up when fed quality power. If I were going to get a new pair I would want these active speakers that are based on their studio monitors. I know you can spend a lot more money but I just don’t feel the need to when you can get all this for $2200, Remember, you can run them wired or wireless and its more than speakers, its a system: https://www.audioadvice.com/jbl-4305p-powered-bookshelf-speakers-pair |
@kota1 Yes there were some beautiful MC901 amps being shown off with beautiful equipment and B and W 801 speakers in a big room, it was horrible. The B and W 801s were so harsh compared to everything else it was off the charts, you really get a very strong sense of what to expect when listening to a first class systems one after the other this one was an abomination, I'm sure it was because of the speakers not the amps, the low end and midrange of the 801s sounded great the high frequency was a dentist drill. I think the amp did a great job in creating punch with the SS circuitry and then transitioning to the mid and HF. In another room the hybrid McIntosh amps did very well with the small new Golden Ear speakers they sounded great and really filled the room in a surprising way, I've never listened to Golden Ear speakers before but it was clear these speakers came from a lot of trickle down technology, the Macintosh amps did very well. The best amps at the show to me were very clear, huge class A, I'm sure there were some great new class D amps (that are the future) but it is a big risk for a manufacture to use an unproven amp in such an important event.
|
