Speaker size and soundstage

In The Absolute Sound Issue 317Jonathan Valin wrote a book review. On page 25 he recalled experiencing Magnaplanar I-U loudspeakers with Audio Research amplification. The year was 1973-1974. He said the system sounded just like the grand piano in the same room. I had a similar experience at the University of Missouri in the living room of a Physicist there in the same time frame. I suppose having a system sound like a grand piano in the same room does not mean the system is perfect in all ways, but that memory stuck with me as well. My Magnepan 1.7i speakers sometimes sound real on rare recordings but cannot compare with that memory. They also needed two subwoofers to be acceptable. Frank

Mahgister......Man you are a tool !

Go Mahgister! I am impressed.

I am; "Ignorant, arrogant, indiscriminate, egotistical, boring, grey and stupid." I don't think you missed a thing. 

I have no idea why you would expend so much energy on an idiot like me. Seems like a waste of time. 

In the end Mahgister all one has is experience. Whether or not that experience is applicable to others is for them to decide. I stand firmly behind everything I said. If someone can show me I made a mistake I will be more than happy to apologize.  

Go Mahgister! I am impressed.

You are right about the use of the adjective "stupid".... It is too much and i apologize...


BUT

Why do you claim something about MOAB speakers you dont own yourself?

Why do you claim that ALL people listening to a sound out of their speakers and not only between them are in a collective illusion or ignorant?

Why do you claim acoustical falsehood and proclaim them truth : absorbing waves at first reflection point cannot be a universal rule, it is related to each room and speakers relation....The use of reflective panel can be also a tool at these points.... It is related to the precise timing of waves in a specific room and the duration of reverberation time...

Why do you think electronical equalization is a solution, when it is at MOST a tool ?

My post was a reaction to these 4 points in your post....

This is ignorance and very boring arrogance putting many people testimonies in the same deception  bag.....( if you read cautiously my post "egotistical" was not directed against you ) I call your arrogance "boring"....

I cannot apologize for this adjective....

I have listened to Moabs and examined the enclosure construction with a woofer removed not to mention the design issues are obvious to look at.
IMHO it is a speaker designed t do one thing and one thing only, make as much money as possible. They certainly did not image well when I heard them and I do not think you can get them beyond what I would call standard imaging.

Next, I think your description of what I said is a bit harsh.
 Unless the recording engineer resorts to studio hocus pocus all instruments and voices are recorded within the confines of two channels. If the engineer mixes an instrument hard left (nothing to the right) that instrument will appear to come directly from the left speaker. It is impossible under normal circumstances for an engineer to mix an instrument beyond the confines of the two channels. The only way that an instrument can appear to come from outside those boundaries is if enough early reflected sound comes back to the listening position from outside those boundaries moving the image to the outside. So by definition you have acoustic interference and distortion of the signal. Ideally that should not happen. It is a problem that needs to be fixed.  This is different than ambience extending outside the boundaries of the speaker, the sensation of being in a large venue or room other than the one you are in. That information is low level and the late reflections in the room send it back with even more delay simulating a room that is even larger. So, your soundstage extends into the larger venue and you feel as if you are right there in front of the stage. Very cool when it happens. But, instruments do not come from beyond the speakers. If they do you have an acoustic problem as nothing else in my experience will do that except maybe a vivid imagination.
I prefer terms that actually describe what is happening. Saying a turntable has good pace to me is ..rather ridiculous. The pace and/or time is determined by the musicians. It is part of the art of music and determines the feeling of the song or music. Nothing in the audio chain is responsible for this unless it is malfunctioning. A turntable or speaker can be dynamic. I know exactly what that term means. Sometimes it is difficult to describe what you are hearing which to me means you have to be even more careful in the way you describe it. 

Peace and love  

The only way that an instrument can appear to come from outside those boundaries is if enough early reflected sound comes back to the listening position from outside those boundaries moving the image to the outside. So by definition you have acoustic interference and distortion of the signal.

You miss the fact that the recording engineer placing his different TYPES of mic at different location INTERPRET the acoustical settings of the recording hall or room and TRANSLATE them in a specific atmosphere...

This atmosphere is RECREATED with plus or minus success in the acoustical settings of the listener room...

Then well controlled a listener room can recreate this atmosphere with an impression of spatiality encompassing the room itsef in some case....



The timing controls of reflections and their ratio early/late coming from not only the side but from the back and front is ONE of my KEY factor to control my imaging/soundstage and source width/ envelopment factors... The other KEY factor is diffusion/absorption balance with the Helmhotz resonators not only with passive material treatment....

What you call an acoustic "distortion", when controlled, is what i called a piano or an orchestra sound OUT of my speakers laterally or/ and in the front/back dimension in my room....It is related also for sure to the way the recording engineer make his acoustical choices ....But the sound ,save in bad recording, is  never  ONLY between the speakers....



Read this abstract second paragraph attentively:

2aAAS. A new physical measure for psychological evaluation of a soundfield: Front/back energy ratio as a measurefor
envelopment.M. Morimoto (Environmental Acoust.Lab.,Facultyof Eng.,KobeUniv., Rokko,Nada,Kobe,657Japan)and
K. Iida (Kobe Univ., Kobe,657 JapanandMatsushitaCommun.IndustrialCo., Ltd., Japan)
Broadeningis oneof the importantcharacteristics for the psychological evaluationof a soundfield.Severalinvestigations
indicatedthatbroadeningwascomprisedoftwoelemental senses, i.e.,auditorysourcewidth(spaciousness) andenvelopment [M.
Morimoto et al., Proc. 13th ICA, Belgrade2, 215-218 (1989); J. AcoustSoc.Jpn.46, 449-457 (1990); and Hidaka et al., J.
Acoust.Soc.Am. 92, 2469 (A) (1992)].


«They inferred that the degree of interaural cross correlation of late reflections correlated
with envelopment. This paper, however, shows the results of psychological experiments that envelopment is affected by the energy
ratio of reflections coming from the front of the listener to those coming from the back of the listener,even if the degree of
interaural cross correlation of the late reflections are equal.Namely,envelopment grows as the energyof the reflection coming
from the back of the listener increases. This result suggests the need to measure the ratio which has never been measure...»


Peace and love !

Electronics and detail matter but It’s mostly about the room acoustics and how the speakers use it relative to the listener. The sound radiation pattern and dispersion being a big factor.

All you need to do to prove the room and acoustics is the key is set your system up outside and see how big your soundstage is there regardless of recording.

Since the audio comes out of the speakers, many seem to think they control everything. This speaker forum has gotten downright comical; nobody is considering what fifty eleven dozen other things have to do with the audio?

Since the audio comes out of the speakers, many seem to think they control everything

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Some of us here do believe Spaekers reign as The Kings in our system,. Power = power. 
cd player = DAC
Phone gets a tad edge vs CDP, Not much. 
Speakers rule
 The Crown Jewels

I have a  4 inch clone on the Lowther/Fostex design. 
Its ok, nothing great, at a  miserable 91db. I us it for low mids-low highs,  
Although a  tiny 4 inch cone, this lil driver puts out huge massive soundstage that will blow you away in near field/small room acoustics. .
 = Size does not matter, 
db sensitivity is all that matters, 
db sens is the Holy Grail in speaker design. 
This lil fullrange will match the masssive 300 lb Wilson speakers in midrange soundstage. 
Size is not materail, Efficiency is all that matters. In mids/highs, Bass is different. 

In general the bigger the speakers the bigger the soundstage.  There are a few exceptions just like everything else in life.  

One of these is not like the others:

"The soundstage starts a few feet behind the speakers, and extends well out into the room, seemingly surrounding you. I've never (in a true two speaker setup) felt so enveloped by the music as I was last night."

"The imaging was so good that I felt like the vocalist was performing right in front of me and that I could reach out and touch them."

"so far above any system I had heard ...because of the detailed soundstage."

"They certainly did not image well when I heard them and I do not think you can get them beyond what I would call standard imaging."

Wonder why?

Mahgister, I did not miss that fact at all. I went out of my way to explain it.
The mastering engineer can mix any sound/instrument recorded in only three ways all the volume in the right speaker, all the volume in the left speaker then anywhere in between. Unless he resorts to staggering phase and other tricks the sound is going to come from the right speaker, the left speaker and anywhere in between. If an instrument images outside of the stereo pair it might sound cool but there is an acoustical problem with the room. This is the only way that can happen under normal circumstances. Forget about how the recording was made although it is nice to get the acoustic ques of the venue into the recording it is because of their low levels that reflections can compete with them and make it seem as if you are in that venue but the high level of the instruments themselves should always come at or between the speakers. There is no other way to mix them without tricks. This is not IMHO Magister is a matter of fact. 

Well, I’m no expert, but can only report what I recently heard. I listened to three levels of Focals: Aria, Kanta, and Sopra at a dealer with all the same electronics.

While there are other differences of course in design, they all are from the same manufacturer, and all step up incrementally in size.

All very good speakers, but without question the sound stage increased by big steps. For me at least, there is a threshold for speakers where they disappear and I am just immersed in the music. So far in my limited experience, the bigger the speakers, the more they “disappear”. Interesting, on my second visit to the listing room, the Sopras were so much smaller than I had remembered because they through such a massive enveloping sound that in mind they had to be huge, but weren’t. 
When I returned home, I listened to my Electons. They completely fill the room like the Kanta, are less detailed and smoother, and a bit darker. Mind you I have a hybrid amp and my vintage tubes are definitely smoothing the sound. 
As an aside I recently added a x10 Paradigm sub to my Electrons and it really improved the overall depth of the music and my engagement.

andy21,365 posts06-16-2021 6:46pmIn general the bigger the speakers the bigger the soundstage.

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Cavat
The bigger the speaker = more likely to be LOUDER vs a 4 inch FR in midarnge, but certainly more likely to have distortion, fatigue.
WE are not after huge massive wide soundstage via high db/loudness.
Not at all. We are all after the delicate nuances hidden within all music and produced ona  level that  sparkles with fidelity/clarity. 
This can only be achieved via high quality full range.
Due to its super sensitivity. 
All speakers under say 92db may produce a  huge loud sound stage, but most assuredly will lack the fidelity we all demand. 
Big speakers, heavy speakers have never impressed me. Back then, nor now. 

The mastering engineer can mix any sound/instrument recorded in only three ways all the volume in the right speaker, all the volume in the left speaker then anywhere in between. Unless he resorts to staggering phase and other tricks the sound is going to come from the right speaker, the left speaker and anywhere in between. If an instrument images outside of the stereo pair it might sound cool but there is an acoustical problem with the room. This is the only way that can happen under normal circumstances. Forget about how the recording was made although it is nice to get the acoustic ques of the venue into the recording it is because of their low levels that reflections can compete with them and make it seem as if you are in that venue but the high level of the instruments themselves should always come at or between the speakers. There is no other way to mix them without tricks. This is not IMHO Magister is a matter of fact.

You describe here the recording process forgetting that it is not a description of the acoustic experience you just did...

I listen to the "Gabrielli" album from Empire brass ensemble for example...

The sound comes from the external right and external left OUT of the speakers simultaneously with a very good deep front/back imaging...

I listen to many album and many present a deeper front/back imaging sometimes filling the room and between me and the speaker.... I am among the players and not sometimes in front of them at distance...

In general more than half of my albums make me forget the location of my speakers because the piano for exemple may sound in my room with a chord distibution from front near me,to back behind the speakers....i am near the piano able to touch the instrument....

Example: Moravec Chopin Nocturnes or Feltsman Bach Well tempered Klavier...Try these 2 and if the piano dont fill the room few inches from you , your system is boring and not acoustically very impressive... Sorry...
Buy these  2  albums very well recorded and if the sound dont fill your room your acoustic control is bad ....Simple....

Must I called it a sound between the speakers because you think that it is the norm? The sound is AROUND or coming way out of the space between the speakers and sometimes the 2 at the same times it is relative to the mic location in the initial event... ....


You forget that acoustic is NEVER perfectly seized by the recording process but the recreation of the 3-d atmosphere of the initial recording is most of the times possible IF we control the room....It is not magic it is science....

BEFORE my acoustic controls were in place the sound was always between the speakers, never outside them by the right or left and never near me, and never with a great front/back distribution in space....

After with the SAME components the situation were completely different...

Then acoustic controls explain it most of the phenomena ( with vibrations control for some degree)

In front of or behind the speakers is fine although in my experience the instruments and stage tend to be behind the speakers but this is volume sensitive and will vary depending on the type of speaker you have.
If you like the experience you have with instruments imagining outside of the speakers then don't change anything. But, it is an aberration of acoustics and not a product of the reproduction process in 2 channels.
I suppose you can get this in a 5.1 system but I wouldn't know as I have never taken them seriously. It is really only useful for theater. Getting two speakers to work in unison is more than enough.  

@fstary,

"I suppose having a system sound like a grand piano in the same room does not mean the system is perfect in all ways, but that memory stuck with me as well."



As it should.

Most (ok virtually all) of the systems that I've heard had no chance of even getting close to start with.

Other genres of music can place serious demands upon your loudspeakers but few make their shortcomings as obvious as piano can.

For some speakers it's a risk not worth taking, as I once found out when one of midrange drivers began to make some strange noises when playing back some Glenn Gould.

No jokes please.

^^^ The "strange noise" probably came from Glenn Gould himself :-)

redwoodaudio274 posts06-05-2021 8:39pmOverall size of the soundstage, specificity/precision of the soundstage, dimensionality of the soundstage, scale of the soundstage are, in my experience, distinct and dependent on multiple variables including electronics, isolation, noise, room, speakers, etc.  The only one I’ve found to correlate with size of the speakers/drivers is soundstage scale (eg. musicians and instruments sounding larger or smaller).


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WEll yes, my system ina  room 2x's the size i have , 10x12 8 ft ceiling, would most likely grant the soundtage air to breathe, more open *larger stage*. 
Which is why I listen very near field and preamp vol never more than 9 oclock.
So yeah, like the only other way to grant larger sound stahe either small, mid or  extra large size rooms is via the best option, Yeah you know its comming, thats all I talk about these days is <<Sensitivity> 
You just KNEW it was  a comming.
Every time I notched up the sens values on the full range, (tried 4 cheap chinese FR's) each offered a  different soundstage size.
The lower the distortion = the sweeter the soundstage = more open.
Right now i am using the DavidLouis 4 incher as low mids= low highs. Its not bad, = you get what you pay for. 
= You are not going to get Voxativ quality ina  chinese clone at $200/pair, Not going to happen.
Livable? 
eh, maybe, I mean fatigue free for the most part. Sure beats all the other chinese FR and the Seas Millennium tweeter at $700/pair, thats for sure.
Its was a  a nice lil  experiementation in testing dif FR , I have no plans to ck out other chinese made FR, 
I'm going after the 
*Real Deal*
No not AER, out my budget, as the Thor upgrades  broke my budget at $1400.
The other *Real Deal*
Won;'t mention lab, as *best kept secret* til time comes when I upload  a  YT vid for you guys. 
It will be a  3 way.
Seas W18E001/dual+
Mystery driver+
Magnovox 1963 tweeter horn,
 which may be the best tweeter ever invented. = New is not alwasy better. 
If the mystery speaker performs highs with minimal roll off, I'll take out my fav Magnovox (pulled from Richard Gray's stash room collected over the past decades)  as being un-needed. 
Bottom line = higher you sgo up the sens scale = larger will be soundstage  in whatever size room you have.
Now why is this?
I know the answer only by experiementing with different sens speakers past few months. 
Everyone should buya  cheap FR chinese speaker and test in their system. DavidLouis has many options. Then you can list it on ebay at a  40% reduction. At least now you can compare to what you have. 
Now you can determine which FR on the high end you  can afford. 

corelli689 posts06-05-2021 8:30amSpeaker size has a lot to do with bass response

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I mean if you are running 12 or 15 inch woofers well then of course you will get rock solid bass, But I expect upper bass is not very musical, 
So witha  single SEas Graphene Excel W22 in a  24x24x12 inch cabinet you can get all the musical bass you need, close to sub bass effect. 
So true and not true about size cab makes all the difference.