Speaker Placement and Toe-In

So many great responses thank you. My room has been treated extensively. My room is 27 x 17 x 8. Three of the walls have exterior concrete. All of the walls and ceiling were made with separate studding and with 1/2" drywall with insulation behind them.

I have large 20" diameter tube traps in the corners and 7 Stillpoint Aperture ll’s located at the center and on the walls along with other wall treatments. Also, I have acoustic ceiling tile that is glued and stapled to the drywall. The speakers are 55" out from the back wall to the back of the speakers and are 37" from the wall side to the side of the speaker.

The wall behind my seating position is about 8 feet away and has a rack that holds over 6000 cd’s.

I was always under the impression that speakers should be toed in to dial in the soundstage. Obviously and to my surprise, with my room, speakers, equipment that is not the case.

ozzy

+1 @holmz on saying a lot about the room. I started a similar a similar thread last month on this as well that some of you contributed to. 

@ozzy How wide is your room, how far apart are the speakers, and what’s your listening distance? The fact that you have the sopras set up with no toe in means they need to be close enough together to create a coherent center image while also reflecting beneficially off the walls to provide a wide soundstage. This is fairly difficult to achieve in many rooms using no toe in, but when possible, it is incredible. 

ideal speaker placement is room specific, speaker specific, non transferable i-p among users, as important is proper placement is for any specific user

With more or less omnidirectional loudspeakers toe-in does not matter much. You might change reflective patterns a little but that is all. With directional loudspeakers it is a totally different ball game. The idea is to cover the listening area with both channels and minimize reflections thus toe-in becomes very important for controlling room reflection. These are speakers like horns and dipoles of one sort or another. Even with room treatment, you will never get the image out of an omnidirectional speaker to match that of a speaker with controlled directionality.

and I know this sounds counter intuitive, but I toed-in both just slightly, and, wala, it worked. Wider stage.

@bkeske - yep, that is counter intuitive… but listening to it, and liking it, is hard to argue. Sometimes it is weird and magical how it just all of a sudden seems to snap good.

Young fellow (work mate) had his speakers playing and I asked if he liked them.
He said that the bass was a bit low.
I asked if I could move the speakers, and I shoved them back to about 15” from the wall and toed them in 1/2 way.
He said, “wow.” And wanted to do more adjusting.
I told him he could spend most of the day with a roll of tape, and taking notes… and we had to man the BBQ for the lady folk.
He asked how will he know when they are right. I shrugged my shoulders and told him, when which ever way you move them gets worst, then we assume that they must be right… we both had a larf, and retired to the BBQ tongs.

Needless to add, my Quad 57s are toed in to a 1/16th of an inch to each ear!

When I experiment with toe in.....the soundstage is flat when they point directly at my listening position....as I move them out, the depth increases until I hear a hole in the middle....I went too far.  (Vandersteen speakers)

@holmz 

The fact that you like no toe in, to me says more about your room, than about your speakers.

Bingo. My Treo’s have minor toe-in (had very little). But, something was bothering me yesterday, I didn’t feel I was getting a wide enough stage, and I know this sounds counter intuitive, but I toed-in both just slightly, and, wala, it worked. Wider stage.

No doubt, I chalk this up to my room more than the speakers.

What I found is that I prefer no Toe-In. That is, I prefer the speakers straight out into the room.

If your room was reflective, then you might like toe in.

The fact that you like no toe in, to me says more about your room, than about your speakers.

My (different speakers) are toed in, but the speakers and the room, are both different than yours.

There is no easy way to get to this point, without just moving and listening… but you got there.

Do you have a link for the air bladder wedge?

My Spendors like straight ahead too. 

Dali doesn't recommend any toe in and so far I'd have to agree.

yeay. :)  Many speakers are designed for just such placement.