Sbayne,
Thanks for your input.
Mike |
Sbayne,
Thanks for your input.
Mike |
Tomcy6 - I didn't mean to turn this thread into a digital v. analog debate (been there done that) but I respect your opinion and can agree digital now a days is very good. Now back to the HAP-Z1ES.......... |
Sbayne, That's funny. The days of a modest turntable "blowing digital out of the water" are now past. You may prefer the turntable, and you have every right to your preference, but that's just a bias on your part. That's just my humble opinion. |
Mistratil - the Remastering Engine in no way hurt the sound of ripped redbook CD playback. In almost all cases it made the soundstage wider and more natural sounding. Yes, it does make all sources sound much like its DSD recording. If you don't like the Remastering Engine then turn it off. Will you like it in your system? I don't know - "sound quality" is very subjective. There are many people who think digital surpassed analog playback years ago. I'm not in that camp. If you want some type of bottom line regarding "sound quality" and whether you should buy the HAP-Z1ES here it is: If you don't have an analog system then don't buy the HAP-Z1ES, put the $2K in something like a Pro-Ject RM-9.2 with Sumiko EVO III: sit-back, relax and realize its blowing the HAP-Z1ES out of the water when it comes to "sound quality." |
Can you give me a description of the improvement in sound quality in playing redbook CDs converted to DSD on your HPA-Z1ES vs. other players without conversion.
Mike |
Just read the Absolute Sound review when the new issue arrived the other day. They finished the review stating that "If you plan to spend more than $2000.00 on any digital front end, whether it be an audio computer, CD player, DAC, network player, or any other front end that uses digital files as a source, and you don't audition a HAP-Z1ES, you are failing to consider what may well be "the" benchmark digital product of 2014".
I'm seriously considering purchasing this unit, but am trying to overcome concerns about it having no digital output, eliminating the ability to use it with a newer DAC years down the line. However, there simply isn't anything else out there close to this is price, or value.
It has also been commented on that Sony may actually be either losing money, or, at least greatly minimizing normal mark ups on these units to first, get the DSD technology selling, and secondly, by planning on this working out the same as their PS3 and 4 strategy, where they essentially give the hardware away, but make massive profits on games/software, for years afterwards. Since they will be making available virtually their entire music catalog in DSD, this may well do that for them. |
Can you give me a description of the improvement in sound quality in playing redbook CDs converted to DSD on your HPA-Z1ES vs. other players without conversion.
Mike |
I'm not as expert on these issues as you guys. So I have a simple, bottom-line question for Sbayne:
If a typical audiophile A/Bs a typical contemporary classical music CD on (a) an Olive and (b) the HAP-Z1ES with DSD remastering, will the HAP-Z1ES sound significantly better?
Will the remastered version almost as good as Hi-Res?
Mike |
I'm not as expert on these issues as you guys. So I have a simple, bottom-line question for Sbayne:
If a typical audiophile A/Bs a typical contemporary classical music CD on (a) an Olive and (b) the HAP-Z1ES with DSD remastering, will the HAP-Z1ES sound significantly better?
Will the remastered version almost as good as Hi-Res?
Mike |
I'm not as expert on these issues as you guys. So I have a simple, bottom-line question for Sbayne:
If a typical audiophile A/Bs a typical contemporary classical music CD on (a) an Olive and (b) the HAP-Z1ES with DSD remastering, will the HAP-Z1ES sound significantly better?
Will the remastered version almost as good as Hi-Res?
Mike |
If you want professional reviews The Absolute Sound and What-Hi Fi? have already published some. The output stage is almost the same as the XA-5400ES so there will be plenty of tweakers out there I'm sure. |
Hi Sbayne,
You said:
"At times I prefer the remastered version to the DSD version and other times I do not."
Are these DSD versions pure DSD recording, re-mastered or re-mixed(???)?
May be this will tell why.
Thank you! |
Kclone, my thoughts exactly. I'm going to wait for reviews, but the main thing for me will be if Dan Wright offers a mod on this unit. That in my estimation would make this a no brainer, but it could cut into sales on his new DAC, so he may pass on this one. I'll be following this closely, but I won't be an early buyer. |
Interesting product. A lot of questions about functionality, and it seems very good in that regard. However, what about sound quality? Is it just another sub 2 grand DAC of which there are many on the market or is it something special? |
The soundstage is more relaxed and much larger with the DSD remastering engaged. There is a more natural decay to the notes and the leading edge of the note is properly rendered. If you have ever compared a good quality, properly set-up analog system to most digital sources you know exactly what I'm trying to say. As to Sony' software, all I can say its very simple and effective. It took a long time to load all my music (direct LAN cable is recommended) but once loaded it was properly organized by genre, artist, album, and track. Gracenote is the online database used and its generally accurate. You can also create playlists so you can organize them manually by composer if you wish but I don't see any direct user control over how music is searched or cataloged. |
While it is in another league price-wise, it is my opinion that anyone considering the Sony machine needs to seriously look at the Lumin. |
Ooops, I meant to type DSD remastering not DMS remastering. |
Sbayne, congrats on your purchase and thanks for sharing your impressions thus far. Can you be any more specific about the differences in sound quality that you are perceiving with 16bit, 44.1 kHz files when DMS remastering is turned on versus off?
Also, what do you think of Sony's software? I am particularly interested in the initial process for transferring files from one's computer to the Sony and whether the user has any control over how the Sony organizes the transferred files for search purposes. For example, if I wanted to select classical tracks for playback based on composer name rather than album name would I be able to do that? |
Just wanted to share my thoughts on my newest acquisition: the Sony HAP-Z1ES music server. As many of you have said the remastering engine is why you pay 1k more than its little brother the HAP-S1/B which doesn't have the remastering option (or the larger hard drive). The build quality is at a much high level as well. I recently had all my SACDs ripped many of which I also have ripped at 16bit, 44.1 kHz and on vinyl. So I was able to compare the DSD version against the 44.1 kHz DSD remastered and the analog version. First, let me say........ vinyl is still king. Nothing beats a mechanical, analog playback system. Digital just don't sound as natural. But (and its a BIG but) the Sony HAP-Z1ES shows digital reproduction is getting very, very good! It isn't the DSD signals I am most impressed with but the DSD remastered signals!! At times I prefer the remastered version to the DSD version and other times I do not. The point is your 16 bit, 44.1 kHz ripped CDs have a new lease on life! Sony went "all-in" with this technology and it has paid-off. |
The fact that the Z1 can't access a NAS over the network but requires the Music Transfer software to keep you music files sync'ed onto its hard drive is a deal killer for me. I don't want to have music files scattered all over my network, that's why I bought a NAS with RAID and backup. In this way, the Marantz is a better solution for me. |
I think the DSD remastering engine is just an upsampler that upsamples any signal coming in up to DSD rates, if it's turned on.
I read the whathifi review and like everything else I've read about these products there's not much detail. I haven't seen any comparisons between the 2 dacs anywhere.
TAS is going to have an article on it in the March issue and Kal is doing a review for Stereophile, which will probably take a little while longer to get into print.
I think we'll just have to wait a few more months to find out if this is the long awaited low cost, high sound quality, easy to use music server we've been waiting for for many years now. |
The S1 and the Z1 are for different people. The S1 has a built in power amp and more features but does not have the ES tweakiness (therefore better sound via line out). The Z1 is for those audiophiles that have a serious system and already have a great amp and or preamp/amp combo. The build quality of the Z1 is much better. Two serious transformers....dual mono 32 bit DACs, better output stages, better and more regulators, parts, etc. (all just for the DAC....not sharing power with an amp). You can see pics of the inside on the internet.
Imagine a company selling a $1000 integrated amp and then also has a $2000 preamp and a $2000 power amp.....You would hope the $4000 separates would sound better. This is what Sony is offering. They have a $2000 integrated amp that is the companion to the Z1.
Since there is room in the Z1 for mods then a modded Z1 could be really seriously great. Again, a different price point and different users. |
Having just read a review of the Z1 at whathifi.com I am confused once again. Being otherwise a fountain of little useful information, I did learn from this review that the Z1's DSD remastering engine can be turned on and off (a surprise to me) which suggests that my previous characterization essentially equating the DSD remastering engine with the Z1's DAC is misleading. So now I am wondering if the S1 and Z1 might, in fact, have the same DAC even though it is apparently only the Z1 that has the so-called DSD remastering engine. Thoughts anyone? |
To put it another way, even though the Z1 can't be used as a standalone DAC, the DAC that's in the Z1 is presumably a much better DAC than the DAC that's in the S1. |
As near as I can tell from the published specs, the feature that looks to be the most responsible for the price difference is Sony's proprietary "DSD remastering engine" (i.e., DAC) which the Z1 has and the S1 does not. Presumably this means that were one to play the same non-DSD file through both devices the sound quality would be noticeably better through the Z1 than through the S1 assuming otherwise identical systems. At least that's my take on it. |
What is bizarre is the the Sony HAP S1 at $1000 (as opposed to the Z1ES at $2000) has a whole range of inputs: coax, optical, line, ethernet and includes a 40 W amp section or can be used as a DAC with a Line Out. The only benefit of the Z1 is a 1TB HD vs 500GB in the S1 and balanced outputs. Furthermore the codecs seem identical in both. Why would anyone purchase the Z1 at twice the price?? |
Duh, it seems I was having another one of my brain farts. Thanks Mitch/Kal for the clarification. |
.
It's easy, just go to the Sony website and see photos of the rear of the unit yourself. No inputs.
There is no mention of it being able to function as a DAC for an external transport or other sources.
. |
Mitch4t is correct. You cannot use it "just" as a DAC although it contains one. |
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GZ3827, I think he means that the unit has an internal DAC of course, but no DAC function for external sources, like a cd player or for streaming music sources like Rhapsody or Pandora from a computer or a squeezebox.
. |
Kr4, in an earlier post you wrote "it's not a dac or a renderer." The DAC part of that statement confuses me a bit. When starting with digital source material (in this case, computer files no less) I thought there always had to be a DAC somewhere in the equation for sound to emerge from a loudspeaker at the other end. Is that not true?
My confusion also comes from statements on Music Direct's website that read "The Sony HAP-Z1ES is a true professional reference DAC" and "This digital to analog converter effectively reduces ..." and "This ideal D/A conversion system combines ..." Are these marketing statements inaccurate?
If you have the opportunity in your review, I am hoping you can clear up this confusion because as it is the answer to the question of whether the HAP-Z1ES does or does not contain a DAC is about as clear as mud. |
01-26-14: Mr_bill wrote
Kal,
You should review the Sony Hap Z1ES.
I am doing so. |
I see now that the hard drive replacement question I raised above does appear to be answered in the "Quick Reference Guide" that's posted on Sony's website, which states: "Do not replace or add hard disk drives on the unit." So much for user serviceability.
But fear not! Additional language on page 7 of the Guide infers -- albeit with incredibly roundabout language -- that hard drive repair and replacement can be handled through Sony. On the other hand, however, absolutely no information is provided as to who one would contact to make any such arrangement. In fact, warranty information about the HAP-Z1ES of any kind whatsoever seems to be totally 'missing in action' from the product's page on Sony's website.
I don't know about anyone else, but I find such omissions as these a little troubling particularly given this humdinger that also appears in the Quick Reference Guide: "Due to the nature of the hard disk drive, we do not recommend you store data on the hard disk drive for a long period." How's that for a disclaimer! Kind of reminds me of the drug ads on TV that tell you if you take this drug your arms are gonna fall off and then you'll go blind. |
Kal,
You should review the Sony Hap Z1ES. |
You will need to use a tablet or smartphone to make playlists. |
Rg58, thanks for your impressions so far. Looking forward to your further observations particularly since I also have B&W speakers (804 Diamond with Musical Fidelity). On another forum I did read a somewhat negative comment about the transfer software because apparently only 100 folders can be transferred at a time. My concern about the software has more to do with how easy it will be to find specific albums once the transfer is complete, particularly classical albums. I'm not sure but I suspect there's no way to search based on composer which would be a limitation for anyone with a lot of classical music. Another aspect of the software that interests me is if there are any hassles involved in creating playlists. And one hardware question I have is whether or not the harddrive can be replaced by the user should it fail or would this require shipping the player off to a service center. |
This model is now at a number of dealers. I listened to it here in San Antonio and was quite impressed. I also brought 2 IPADS (1st & 3rd Gen), 1 laptop and 1 android device to the audition. I wanted to test the software and see if it would work well on all of those devices since the screen on the server is so small. I must report that ALL devices worked very well and the interface was much better and smoother than my Olive 4 music server. No problem moving files from the laptop and such. Based on my listening experience (all McIntosh system with B&W 802D speakers) I ordered the server. Expect it in a few days and will let you know what I find out as I use it at home. |
I have just ordered the CAPS v3 Carbon from Small Green Computers, so see Kr4's comments above (12-31-13).
IMO - This "concept" product(s) is worth checking out. For the most part, it's plug-n-play to build it yourself, or just get it built like me, for a fraction more of the DIY price. If you have any "tinkerer" in you, it may be worth taking a look. |
The thing that I find most compelling about the CES report is not that the player made a positive impression on JA (after all, what doesn't make a positive impression on JA?) but rather that Sony chose for its room at CES to use this $2,000 player in conjunction with $27,000 speakers and Pass Labs amplification! |
Looks like this little 'un made quite an impression on JA at the CES.
Link :-
www.stereophile.com |
I totally understand the frustration of dealing with computers, but I guess I've gotten used to it. It really doesn't bother me that the Sony does not eliminate the need for a computer. What concerns me is the Sony's software about which very little has been published. I'm really looking forward to the yet-to-come reviews, and I hope reviewers will devote as much attention to software features as to hardware and sound quality. |
I agree with Acurus. I have an older laptop running XP and every other time I turn it on there are MS updates or antivirus updates, etc., and don't even get me started on Acrobat or iTunes. I've done some downloads from HDTracks using MediaMonkey to play and the whole process is just a hassle. I would need a new computer to get more into downloading music and since I'm interested in DSD, this Sony player is looking like a (near) one box solution to me. |
Just checked Sony's website again. Now they are saying "In stock estimated ship date 1-16-2014." Hmmm ... I guess either a whole potful of orders evaporated overnight or else Sony has found a way to push out 6 weeks of production in just 24 hours. Maybe they're building these things with 3D printers! |
Just checked Sony's website. Regarding the HAP-Z1ES which was supposed to be available starting Jan 2, the Sony site no longer claims "In stock" as it did for the first few days of January. It now reads "In stock estimated ship date 02-27-2014." How's that for an oxymoron?
I guess the good news is that at least we now know that it's not just the government that screws up product launches. Private enterprise is perfectly capable of its own miscalculations. |
Acurus,
In my previous post I outlined my connections with my Marantz. I neglected to say that the router that I use is not normally connected to the internet. The only time that I connect it is when ripping new music. Thus, it is a closed and isolated LAN. I use the Plug Player $5 app. I have no maintenance and no ads just music. I have another NAS that I keep off site that is a copy of the one I use. It is a very simple system with minimal hardware and software. No muss no fuss. |
"It is windows based, constantly is updating the OS and is hampered by all the regular windows problems"
May I ask what issue you are having other than the updates? I have a Windows 8.1 system in my office running on SSD's and it runs flawlessly. I shut it down every night and it boots up in about 10-15 seconds. I do not put it to sleep.
It is not a very powerful machine nor is it very quiet but JRiver 18 works every time without a hitch. |
Yeah, I hear you guys. Unfortunately I have all that stuff. PC with a 1TB drive, 10TB media NAS as a backup, Jriver etc. it all sucks and is a PITA. Thanks for clarifying my JRiver is software, all this time I thought that was my PC. With that being said my sound is beyond reproach, it just sucks looking at a JRiver ad every time I boot up bc they have new releases seems like every month. I hate having to buy playback software every time they upgrade. A NAS is still hamstrung by maintenance and troubleshooting, not the panacea some say. ASIO drivers, exotic sound cards, custom digital DIN to XLR connectors, and on and on. Not to mention windows updates, reboots, warnings etc.
Just looking forward to the future where I am not hamstrung by all this crap. The Sony seems like a step in the right direction. The marantz does not. Sorry, just my opinion. |
JRiver is not a computer. JRiver is a software application. Rather than say that the Marantz requires a computer to run, I think it would be more accurate to say that the Marantz needs to be connected to some other device (for example, Network Attached Storage) that stores and/or streams the digital music files that the Marantz is designed to play. Playback can be controlled with the Marantz remote app for iOS or Android devices. Computer-based software like JRiver is not necessarily required.
PS. I wrote in an earlier post that I didn't think the Marantz supports gapless playback. I was wrong. It does support gapless playback with WAV or FLAC files. |
All the Marantz needs is an external NAS connected to a router which also connects to the Marantz. All ethernet connections. Use an Ipad with PlugPlayer app for Ipad, rip your music to the network connected Nas using a computer connected to the ethernet and you are good to go. Once you have ripped your cd's, the computer is out of the picture. So, if you have a computer, an Ipad, $150 NAS, $5 app, and 2 ethernet cables are all you need. It is really quite simple. |
