Some tables have soul and some not

Frogman:

This thread is as much about audio as your 'Best Single-Malt Scotch', but I am sure a lot of perople responded to your thread and enjoyed the give and take. Since I don't drink, should I boycott your threads?

Marakanetz
was not directed at you, and you missed my point.

Rok2id,
My grandparents didn't have to read the book, if you believe that books are lying!
Their brothers, sisters, siblings, sons and daughters burried alive can blast their spiritual screams right from the debris of Dachau, Oswencim, Aushwitz blended to cacophony with music of Wagner and I can hear it...

"I certainly don't expect the above mentioned to give a rat's ass about what I think"

At least you go that part right.

"I will not participate ever again in a thread initiated by them. I encourage all to do the same."

What if I say pretty please?

Just curious, exactly what did you find 'offensive'? Just a historical discussion.

I suppose it would be easier to simply ignore the rantings of Inna, Rok2id, and Nandric. After all this kind of indulgent and offensive diatribe is usually rooted in a need for attention. But alas, I confess to personal weakness at not being able to ignore this kind of bs. I like and value this forum, and frankly am amazed that it's censors allow this thread to go on.

While I realize that some will think me sanctimonious, and I certainly don't expect the above mentioned to give a rat's ass about what I think, I would like to go on the record by saying that I will not participate ever again in a thread initiated by them. I encourage all to do the same.

Hey Bill, you warned me.

This is what happens when SOME people reads a book.

Right.
Anyone here likes women?
Now I am thinking what kind of turntable I would want to have that woman on. Definitely direct drive, no bloody belts. Should be very very stable. Any suggestions? And of course that table should have soul, oh yeah.
I suggest we leave Germany alone. It may be difficult for Thuchan to participate.

Dear Inna, While logic try to simplify there are some logical notions which can explain our 'loose way' of speaking. 'the French', 'the Dutch', etc impy 'all French', 'all Dutch', etc. All, everybody, some, etc. are called quantifiers. However quantifiers are not names with refering function. This should be obvious from this statement which everyone can understand: 'some (one) has stolen my car'. The problem for the car owner is obvious:
'some (one)' is not a name. The quantifiers are treated with so called 'satisfaction conditions'. The 'some' or as it is also called 'éxistential quantifier' is true if there is at least one object (person, entity) which satisfy
given condition. If John Gordon has stolen Rik's car then
we know who sastify the condition: has stolen Rik's car.
The 'all' quantor will, I am sure, disapoint our Rambo Rik. The statment, say, 'all French are liers' will be not true if there is one single Frenchman who is not a lier. Ie
'all' means that each and every object included in the class or set must satisfy the given condition. I am sorry for this intermezo but this make it possible for you to mention some French who were in the resistance movement in France. Ie not all French were Hitlers collaborators. BTW the quantor 'some' needs at least one person to be true but
allows of course many more than just one. To be precise one
will need the help of the so called numerical quntifiers.
Say , exactly 3033 French persons were resistance members.

Regards,

Nandric:

"'the Nazis deed not murder the Jews and the Gypsis'. They murdered the most of them to my knowledge. "

I was just saying, that to say the Jews and Gyssies were murdered by Europeans is MORE accurate. I think blaming everything on hitler and the nazis lets a lot of people off the hook.

There is no evidence that the germans forced anyone to collaborate with them. In fact many politicians in Holland, belgium, France, scandinavia and the eastern european countries did everything they could to gain the favor of the nazis and to be recognized as friends and partners in the fight to 'defend' europe. Remember in 1940-41, the germans looked like winners. So this influenced the way people responded. Esp the french. They wanted to be 'somebody' in a german dominated europe. And the common people saw the muder of the Jews as an easy way to steal their stuff. Esp in eastern europe.

We in the USA, see the war as, germans = bad, everyone else, = good. But a lot of people in Europe saw the war as a fight against 'godless' Communist Russia.

There are some really great documentaries now showing on American TV about the Nazi collaborators in Europe. Also a very interesting one called 'Jews that fought for Hitler.' So the whole thing is complicated and facinating.

BTW, no german soldier was ever punished for refusing to commit murder. And a number of them did refuse.

Also, they were more partisans and resistance fighters in Europe, than there were people. :)

Thanks for the historical insight into the balkans.

Good evening, gentlemen.
This is my way to honour those French who cannot hear it for themselves. Let us do it for them and celebrate life.

http://youtu.be/N09VEKI30GQ

To add to what Nandric said, there was a very strong resistance movement in France. We should remember those people.

Rambo Rik, Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia were part of Austrian empire till 1918. After the I WW Bosnia become part of Serbia while Slovenia and Croatia become part
of new Yugoslavia as kingdom of Serbian , Croatian and
Slovenian. The state Yugoslavia was ,say, contructed from
those 3 nations. What are the Bosnians? Well there is a muslim part from the Turks who were left behind, Serbians who become muslim, Ortodox Serbians and Croatians. Bosnia
was never an separate state.
During the II WW there were Hitlers collaborators everywhere as you put it. I know about France (Vishi regime ?), Holland and Yugoslavia much more than about other countries but assume that his method was the same in
all by Germans occupied countries. For many people there was no other choice then to collaborate in order to survive. Hitler was not used to ask anyone if he would be
so kind to collaborate. The Dutch fight against German was
about 6 days... The most Jews were delivered to the Germans so to speak. But thy , the Dutch , apologized to the Izraeli for this fact. They are aware to have be wrong. But I disagree with your statement: 'the Nazis deed not murder the Jews and the Gypsis'. They murdered the most of them to my knowledge. But you may mean 'indirectly' while puting it as 'directly'.
In Yugoslavia however the Jews had the chance to fight with partisans against the Germans. All those mountains of which Inna is so fond were the right precondition to fight in a partisan way. However in Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia
there were also pro Hitler military organizations so in some sense everyone was fitghing agains everyone else the Germans included. Very confusing to fight this way.Ie 'the
enemy' was everywhere.

Dear Inna, 'Very dark territory' indeed. Regarding the former Yugoslavia. All former republics of Yugoslavia want to become member of the E. Union. In this Union however there are no borders. When I travel to Germany I don't need any personal document. The war in Yugoslavia was about the borders. When those 'Slavic brothers' become member of the E. Union they will all realize how stupid they were. Not to mention immense loss of lifes and properties which can't be compensated in any way.

Regards,

Rok2id, after some of your posts I definitely need a drink.
Scotch, shaken not sturred.

"Last, a comment on consistency. To condemn the acts of tyrants such as Hitler and Stalin in one paragraph and then suggest in another there should be similar actions taken against the populations of France, Holland and Bosnia can not be taken seriously as this fails that crucial test. Whiskey, Foxtrot, Tango indeed."

I don't think I condemmed either Herr Hitler or Comrade Stalin. I just mentioned them. And my words about France and Holland were just to point out that they fought with the Nazis for most of the war. And they fought a lot harder with the Nazis than they did against them. These are just facts known to all that study history. I did not use the word Bosnia at all. That area is so confusing I am not sure where or what is Bosnia. I do know that during the world war, in ALL of occupied europe, the Nazis had willing helpers, without whom the holocaust could not have taken place. In other words the Nazis / Germans did not murder the Jews and Gypsies, EUROPEANS murdered them. And I have never heard one word of regret from ANY European to this day. And it's Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. You wrote it in correctly. :)

Timeltel, I think you are taking us into very dark territory. Playing with "Colt" and "AK-47" is one thing but what you suggest we discuss is totally different. It is also a very complicated subject. We would have to go deep into history too. And be very very reserved and mutually respectful despite potentially big disagreements.
I don't mind, what do the others think?

Regards, Inna: As this is an open forum and with your forbearance. This once-fun thread has taken a most interesting turn in that so many well educated and apparently successful individuals cannot establish a consensus. Would there be a unanimous outcry if a "belt drive" regime mandated the destruction of DD turntables because "they had no soul"?

"Man resists harm--- with the intention, not of harming, but of removing the harm done." The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas.

In October 1991 Radovan Karadžić expressed his view about future of Bosnia and Bosnian Muslims: "In just a couple of days, Sarajevo will be gone and there will be five hundred thousand dead, in one month Muslims will be annihilated in Bosnia and Herzegovina". In 1996, the referred to "gendercide" took place and for ten years a systematic elimination of muslim citizens continued.

In a statement to the United Nations Dr Haris Silajdžić, as head of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Delegation to the United Nations, 63rd Session of the General Assembly, said that "According to the ICRC data, 200,000 people were killed, 12,000 of them children, up to 50,000 women were raped, and 2.2 million were forced to flee their homes. This was a veritable genocide and sociocide".

Agape denotes the ardent use of one's reasoning and knowledge to intelligently and comprehensively understand for a corresponding higher intelligent purpose. In view of the following ten years of continued atrocities and the vacillation of the U.N.:

Expresses the sense of the [House of Representatives]/[Senate] that: (2005)
(1) the thousands of innocent people executed at Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina in July 1995, along with all individuals who were victimized during the conflict and genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1992 to 1995, should be remembered and honored;
(2) the Serbian policies of aggression and ethnic cleansing meet the terms defining genocide;
(3) foreign nationals, including U.S. citizens, who have risked, and in some cases lost, their lives in Bosnia and Herzegovina should be remembered and honored;
(4) the United Nations (U.N.) and its member states should accept their share of responsibility for allowing the Srebrenica massacre and genocide to occur, and seek to ensure that this does not happen in future crises;
(5) it is in the U.S. national interest that the responsible individuals should be held accountable for their actions;
(6) persons indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) should be apprehended and transferred to The Hague without further delay, and countries should meet their obligations to cooperate with the ICTY; and
(7) the United States should support the independence and territorial integrity of Bosnia and Herzegovina and peace and stability in southeastern Europe.
—CRS Summary

Napoleanic strategies are no longer practical, "boots on the ground" is now a policing action. Unmanned armed vehicles, long-range precision guided weapons and a emphasis on strategic rather than tactical targets have supplanted the ranks of opposing armies. Firing into enemy lines at point-blank range was made senseless in the 1860's with the invention of the Gatling gun. The horrors of trench warfare and the tactical strategies resulting in the destruction of Dresden will, hopefully, never be repeated.

The second Gulf War, more of the same. The elimination of the population of entire towns by such as "Chemical Ali" cannot be condoned, anyone who resents the application of overwhelming force against those who perpetrate such criminal acts need to examine their world-view. That there are innocents who will also suffer is more than just regrettable but still inescapable. Thomas Jefferson stated that it is better that a hundred criminals go unpunished than that one innocent man is convicted, but where to draw the line---1000 criminals? 10,000? 1,000,000? The American "conscience" is not unscarred but there are those who feel the need to correct such injustices so strongly that Americans volunteer daily to put their lives on the line to do so. Hopefully (Thuchan), the situation in Syria, where a hundred or more demonstrators are murdered daily will be internally resolved.

Last, a comment on consistency. To condemn the acts of tyrants such as Hitler and Stalin in one paragraph and then suggest in another there should be similar actions taken against the populations of France, Holland and Bosnia can not be taken seriously as this fails that crucial test. Whiskey, Foxtrot, Tango indeed.

Marshal McLuan's "Global Village" has arrived.

Peace,

Geoch, thank you very much.
I made a mistake by asking you to translate her words.
Now I want that woman even more. What am I supposed to do about it? Stupid, that was very stupid of me.

Nandric, you are too uptight, this distorts your perception of what I say. "wild people from mountains" was more of a compliment than otherwise. If I had wanted to say what you thought I might've said, I would've said "barbarians". I didn't say anything of the kind.
I myself am pretty wild too.
He cannot leave his Colt at home because you said that you could, which means would, get AK-47 in Bosnia for $150.

At one time this thread was entertaining.

But as often happens the politics and quasi intellectuals have turned it into cow manure.

Twocan play this game.

Are you feeling me sparky?

Dear Inna :
[The best are those who still have not come]

"It's not to be late to come again
I know the love and is enough.
It's not my shouting
but I have solitude for sky.
The best are those who still have not come
after hiding in the tomorrow that I dreamed.
Τhat more will come my eyes do not worry
arrives in your own face to see when I wake up.
It's not the heart afraid - trembles
but with you learned so beating.
Ιt is the tear which is not waiting
and up to appear slowly flowing."

(Charis Alexiou)

Dear Inna, I may reconsider my invitation because of the
'wild people from the mountains'. I am from the mountains
but not wild I will hope. I am civilizided in Holland where I got my Law degree ( Civil law btw).
Rambo Rok you are also welcome but live your Colt at home.
Otherwise you will be arrested at airport of Amsterdam by
your entry.

Nandric, thank you. Often "wild people from the mountains" have gentle soul and hospitality.
Rok2id, you should not force the invitation, this decision is up to the host. As is the timing of it. Not exactly a modern American approach, I know.

"The biggest "crap" is for someone who doesn't really participate to jump in"

Are you serious? I thought the whole idea of discussing the 'soul' of turntables was a joke. Please excuse me. I had no idea you folks were serious. I thought this was something akin to the 'Cables' forum. Please continue.

"Dear Inna, You as well as Marakanetz are welcome in Holland."

What about me? Am I being dissed?

Dear Inna, You as well as Marakanetz are welcome in Holland.
Alas the story about Djilas is real. After he published his
book about 'Conversations with Stalin' he was removed from
his high position in the party. He was sentenced two times
for his writing. So the first prisoner got 10 years during
the 'power time' of Djilas and second during his decline.Djilas him self got a total of 20 years.

Regards,

I ran into this Greek song and liked it:
http://youtu.be/oy9OxlVdUwA

Geoch, what is she saying? There is sensuality in her voice.
I think, I should follow my own advice to Marakanetz and move to the Netherlands - I definitely prefer this to militarism and destruction.

This is a forum for audiophiles to discuss various subjects related to them.
The biggest "crap" is for someone who doesn't really participate to jump in, call others names , and quickly jump out before giving himself a chance to get engaged in the discussion too.
Yeah, that was a good joke, Nandric.

Inna,
I had started a thread about what are the best TTs. Of course best is relative and may mean something different to different people. I have watched that some guys really love their baby. It might be not the most musical or really highly praised TT by the critics but there is something special regarding their TTs they will never say good by to these tables.

If you develop such a personal relation to a "simple tool" and we would ask those aficionados about their preference I am quite sure they would come back and tell us their TT has a kind of personality or soul. No I am not on drugs...

I am rather keen in learning which TTs definitely have NO soul?
Who can help me?

best @ fun only

Dear Nandric,
may I translate. I think Rok2id means he prefers Tango or Foxtrott after having had a Whiskey...

the Dijlas joke is good! and this was very real I can assume.

best @ fun only

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot !!!!

Rambo Rik, To which 'mess' are you refering? What is 'a battle of wits with unarmed people'? We are fighting with, say, words but I can easely get some Kalashnikov in Bosnia for $150. Ie to belong to the 'ármed people'. Are you suggesting that you are unarmed? If so what kind of military are you? I thought that 'armed people in a battle'
should be your prefered battle territory .
Dear Thuchan, During my time in communist Yugoslavia any discussion needed to satisfy the 'party line'. The problem was : nobody had any idea what 'party line' means so there
was a huge number of 'political prisoners'. This story is for Inna who seems to be familiar with Yugo history.
Three political prisoners have the following discussion.
A to B: 'why are you here?'
B: 'I was againist Djilas and got 10 years'.
B to A: 'and you?'
A: 'I was pro Djilas and got 15 years'.
A and B to C: 'and you?'
C: 'I am Djilas and I got 20 years'.

( Djilas was one of the most important party members)

Regards,

Tpreaves,
may I ask you also a simple question:

what is your contribution to this thread's topic so far?

Tpreaves,
the only unrailed guy are you. It is about such people always keeping their mental barriers very narrow to feel comfortable. You don't need reading our discussion.

these are the ones calling for cencorship. How i love this. I thought we have left those times behind us.

This whole mess is a good example of what happens when you engage in a battle of wits with unarmed people.

There is nothing wrong with my post, I asked a simple question that only requires a simple answer. This is not a forum for discussing political agendas and the like. As I posted before,I guess the moderators are too busy censuring any negative comments about the "new and improved" format to notice. My apologies to the OP for furthur derailing the original thread even though he has chosen to engage in the shenanigans. Good day to all.

Tpreaves, There are some logical problems with your post.
What has the 'new and imroved' format to do with the 'soul'
of any TT? My comment on the 'new format': My God how is
such a mess possible? No way to find my own 'my page' nor
the category 'auction'. I have some 'jewels' of MM carts to
sell while I have no idea what to ask for. The mentioned 'mess'is btw more important than any (other) thread at present. In this sense your 'deviation' from the
thread content is very relevant. Ie 'some deviations' from
the subject matter shoud never be totally excluded.

Regards,

How does all this crap some of you guys are spewing relate to turntables (with or without soul)? I guess the moderators are too busy censuring any negative comments about the "new and improved" format to notice.

Dear Nandric,
okay the discussion was a bit hard and sometimes simplified and of course a bit provoking - but this is the most interesting thread since a long time.
It shows that we are able to discuss relevant matters of our life and not always avoiding topics of religion, nations, societies etc. I got the feeling all around people are educated to swallow, not expressing what they think and feel. it is getting a bit boring dealing all the time with superficial arguments rather than with reality. I liked Marakanetz statement and exuse for abusing him as a place marker for some topics. Of  course we don't have to agree in the end and it is your right defending your mother countries as it is Geoch's to retreat.
Inna moderates in a very good and intelligent way - which is not easy with such tough cookies...like we are, or?

best & fun only

Dear Inna, You and my friend Thuchan, not to mention my Greek brother, are the reasons to come back. But I do intend to avoid this thread if possible. Ie if nobody
insults my two mother countries.

Regards,

Dear Nandric,

I didn't say anything bad about your second motherland "The Netherlands", I just said maybe in the case of Marakanetz he has more freedom in the US. I meant if you look at regulations, financial burdens and so on we are facing in the EU.
I know that among Europeans a US bashing is very popular, or at least a bashing against power. You know best having travelled a lot and having seen many cultures that a working society needs some regulations - we in Germany are world champion in this subject - and maybe in the Netherlands they had the less regulations in Europe. Sweden has changed a lot and I guess in the Netherlands too. Maybe we cling to old images of the 90ies.

best & fun only

Well, lobotomy aside, I can not think how we have fall at less than zero point. Is it by our habit to turn our back to what is going on and the reasoning behind these collaborations? Such a simplified explanation betrays an unconscious & percutaneous perception of the most important things that influence our life. I certainly don't want to unintentionally insult anyone here so, please excuse my withdrawal of this board.

Here is some art diplomacy. Let's honour our friends in far away land our way.
Nandric, welcome back. Relax, no-one is going to threaten Holland, everyone needs at least one Red Light country. But if need arises I will protect the Netherlands with all my audiophile madness too and will spare no cartridges, records and cables to beat the f... out of those shitheads who might have a stupidity to interfere with that gay march you mentioned.
Long live..whatever wants to live!
The music I promised:
http://youtu.be/wvbuR-i9NlM

Dear Thuchan, Why do you want to keep Marakanetz out of
Holland ? For a person with a Ph.D it is improper to tell
such a lie about my second mother country. With Sweden Holland is considered to be the most social country in the world. You should know that I will defend Holland with my
Serbian 'fighting spirit'.
Marakanetz, It is very easy to check for your self. Visit
Holland, preferable during the gay parade. Ie the best illustration of freedom in Holland.

Regards,

agree Inna it is a lot talking about military but also about political and military strategy with two aims, keep peace on earth and keep the US dominance. What we learned from history is that in most cases US dominance wasn't the worst - at least in Europe. There are other examples which didn't work out well.

As the US governments's strategy switches to Asia, most dominantly to China - maybe also trying avoiding the same misleading assessments the Rousevelt administration did at the evening of the Pacific War - we will face a new world order in the next years besides of the Arabian Theater: Asia & China & the United States. We should prepare ourselves in Europe that our role will be not only small but more or less a kind of second row diplomatic one.

best & fun only

Oh hell, you people just can't stop talking about military. All right. Since a war in Europe is nearly impossible, it should be taken somewhere else, correct?
Let the gods of war speak and scream. Iraq is coming to the end, who is next? And don't tell me no-one. Those imbiciles up there will figure something out. But if they touch Iran we should all pray. Anyone has an idea what they are capable of if they get offended. This would be the ultimate f..... nightmare, believe you me.

NATO is important because it put the USA, France, Germany and the UK in the same military alliance. This made it almost impossible to have another european war.

How about this?
A man comes to see a psychiatrist.
- Doctor, I must be lesbian!
- Why do you say it?
- There are so many nice boys but I still very much prefer girls!

Dear Geoch,

"two of the most critical achievments was the European Union & Nato"

I do understand European Union in your case but why Nato?
"All we need is love" doesn't work all the times. Remember Chamberlain.
Or imagine bringing 1000 hippies (not Marakanetz) at one place. What do you think happens after 100 days...

agree that Marakanetz will not survive in the Netherlands but maybe in Marakesch :-)

best & fun only

No, I am not going to beam up when we finally arrived at the subject of women, in a very roundabout way.
Thuchan, I salute your exotic taste. Oriental people have an enigma.
Geoch, you are more than right about weed, it is in fact a way to close one's mind.