has anyone compared a tube amp to a solid state amp and discovered that the diffference sonically between them was undetectable. ? if so what was the tube amp and what was the solid state amp ?
the reason for the question is the basic issue of the ability to distinguish a tube amp from a solid state amp.
this is especially interesting if the components were in production during the 90's , 80's or 70's.
if the components are in current production the probability of such aan occurrence might increasea.
why own a tube amp if there exists a solid state amp that sounds indistinguishable from it ?
I'm not a probe guy. i spent about 30 years making both ICs and discrete. I am most familiar with probe parametrics as they apply to my area of specialty.
As for probers, I know they weren't HP. The last ones I remember were some kind of european 4 station from one central computer/data gatherer. Individual histograms of each wafer were stored for later analysis...patterns of failure and such. I avoided probe....looked too much like work. I am much more comfortable with diffusion / implant / metalization and was very good at metrology. Nanometrics equipement, surface profile stuff and elipsometer along with various 4pt probe and specialty tools.
Capacitive turnon / turnoff delay.....that seems to be the issue..... However, In a device with VERY thin gate ox......How much capactance are we actually talking about?
I never even heard the test guys talk about this.....
Atmo:: When I have a mosfet device under test, what parameter am I looking for? Under what conditions will I be able to measure this parameter?
The 'capacitive' element of a mosfet would be 2 conductors, separated by an insulator. Now, the drain, source and gate will all have resistence associated with them and the gate oxide, usually pretty thin.....on the order of angstroms, is capacitive but how much? in the nano farads, for sure. Their doesn't appear to be much capacitance between source and drain since they are both just differently doped regions of the substrate, except in International Rectifier HexFet devices.....(of which Carver was a big fan) Even the devices I'm used to building, in which the drain is on the bottom of the device have no capacitive elements, again, except the gate oxide.
just curious...........Instead of magfan, you can call me FabGuy.
MrT, there may be another way to do this. The Quad has a low impedance at high frequencies and a lot of transistor amps will tend to make more power due to that, part of the reason why they sound bright on the ESLs and with less bass impact than most tube amps.
OTOH, your Maggies have a flat impedance curve, but also need some power, but delivered into a 4 ohm load. With any SS amp made, the more current you demand of the amp, the more you get non-linearities caused by capacitive elements in the junctions of the output devices. IOW even though they may drive 4 ohms just fine, most transistor amps will sound better on 8 or 16 all other things being equal.
So there is a single solution that might be worth pursuing, the ZERO. If you use a transistor amp, this may take away some of the glare, although you will also loose power. But with a tube amp it may not only have the amp sounding more relaxed, but may give you greater power (although only slightly so) as well.
Some of the driving issues with tubes and Maggies are actually the speaker cables. The ZERO will allow the cable and the amp to see 16 ohms, and then a very short set of cables can be used on the 4 ohms side, allowing you to keep your cable losses to a minimum.
"Choose the one you like and be happy." Well, that makes perfect sense. Unfortunately when a compulsive necessity to have "the best" turns into obsession, we don't always make sense and then next thing you know the music is secondary to the equipment and the merry-go-round keeps spinning.....
"Nothing ever gets resolved in these discussions, and the circularity of the discussion continues ad infinitum."
You're right Tvad, but what I have difficulty understanding is why you're right. Objective fact: Tubes are not solid state and vice verse. They are different and they sound different.
This whole thing brings diet cola to mind. In the beginning, the whole thing with diet was about approximating the taste of the original cola with sugar. Ad campaigns frequently claimed that the results of taste tests concluded that a new version of diet was indistinguishable from the original. But a funny thing happened over time, diet cola began to stand on it's own two feet and many people chose to prefer it to the original. Diet advocates didn't feel that they had to justify their choice by saying that diet tastes like the original cola, they just said they preferred it. Now, if you walk down the pop isle you'll notice each major brand has several varieties of cola - different strokes for different folks. What I never hear in any lunchroom is an argument over which cola tastes better or that a certain diet tastes like the original. It doesn't. Who cares. Solid state isn't tubes and therefore doesn't sound like tubes. Choose the one you like and be happy. What's there to argue about?
I've heard both very good tube systems and very good SS systems sound great. They're just coming to grips with the solution from two different angles. The better ones do tend to sound the same despite their different starting points.
Its only our limited exposure to all the implementations out there that gives rise to this debate.
I have to agree with Phaelon and Tvad that to meet what I find to be tube virtues, it is essential that they be in the amp, upstream tubes with SS amps is simply not the same thing, that took a long time to figure out, especially given what seems to a fairly long run recomendation of combing tubes in the pre with SS amp - a best of both worlds argument - that simply never worked that why for me. Which is not to say which is better, that might very well be a matter that can only be decided by personal preference after listening for yourself, but IF you want what is best from "tubes", I think there is no way around them being in your amps.
the bottom line for me is that the last few hi fi shows I went to I never really liked any room that was powered with solid state amplifiers.
I would deliberatly NOT find out what was being used before listening but when I left the room I would ask - so as not to bias my opinion.
the solid state stuff sounds too flat and lifeless, the flat 2D images are stuck around the speakers, in comparison tubes have a big image and soundspace that seems full of life.
I suppose it depends on how much distintive tube sound you relish. Probably true SS will never emulate the distinctive sound of some tube amps if that is what you want. The thing you have going though is the premise if you buy into it that some good tube and SS amps tend to sound more similar and less "tubey", which is the basis for my suggestions.
My intention here is not to start an argument but I feel a need to address the comment that tube sound can be achieved with a solid state amplifier preceded by tube components. I've read that same thing frequently on these threads and I think it's an important enough issue, particularly to those who are considering a change from solid state to tubes, to expand on that idea. The difference between the tube and solid state camps are very similar to the differences between Democrats and Republicans. Just because one adopts a party does not mean he walks lock-step with everyone else in that party, or shares the same values. To my ears, solid state circuitry cannot be made to sound like tubes by inserting tubes higher up the chain. Tubes can have a different appeal to different people. IME, there are those qualities shared by both tubes and solid state that vary by degree e.g., warmth, soundstage, transparency, definition,etc. If you prefer tubes to solid state because you feel that they are superior concerning some of these shared qualities, you can achieve a more tubelike sound, to you, by inserting tubes anywhere along the chain. If however, you are attracted to those tube virtues not shared by solid state, virtues that I have never been able to satisfactorily articulate, but none the less are very real to me, the yearnings of your audio soul will remain unsatisfied by a solid state amplifier regardless of how many tubes you insert upstream.
Interesting interview with MBL. If you go down in the interview you can get MBL's take on tubes and still further down on vinyl playback. They do not believe that tubes or vinyl provide the most consistent playback.
I actually like it better opposite. I did not originally. I was always told tubes in the preamp and solid state amp. Good solid state preamps are much quieter than tubes and render more inner detail, at least in my case. I cannot find good tubes quiet enough for a preamp, especially in the phono section. You still get the benefits of tubes in this setup Tubes in amp/solid state pre. You also get a more natural bass IMO. There are good tube preamp designs, but where do I get the quiet tubes?
Yes, tube in the pre-amp and/or source along with good SS amp is a practical approach. That is where I have landed. I use the tube pre-amp and IcePower Class D amp with SS dac and phono. I have a similar tube dac also but that is not needed and used in my second system to give it just a dash of tubishness in an otherwise all SS setup as well. I have heard some veryy good tube amp setups, but have achieved a comparable sound with minimal # of tubes and associated pains, so I can recommend my systems as decent models for achieving tube amp-like sound without a tube amp.
A few months ago I heard my Plinius SA-100 mkIII paired with some older Maggie 3A's, and even the SET lovers who were in attendance commented on how liquid and musical this combo was, although the Maggies certainly could have used more power if we wanted to achieve more substantial volume. Also it's important to note that there WERE tubes in the chain to make this listening session much sweeter, which included a Loesch & Weisner preamp and a Lector CDP with NOS Brimar tubes.
The difference between 'old' Maggies and 'new' is the difference between pole piece forward and mylar forward. The old way, IMO was better. My original MG-1s had a character and feel about them not equaled by my 1.6s, until I did a rotate-in-place.
Anyone having 'brightness' or treble problems with Magnepan should try a simple rotate in place test, give 'em a few minutes and adjust to preference. Maybe even give it a day or more.
When I did the rotate thing, the change was so startling that I knew they'd stay that way. Had more of the character of the MG-1 without the heat of the 1.6 as well as a fuller center image and simply a wider 'listenable' seating area.
Cost? just a few minutes and the electricity you were going to use anyway, to listen to that new album.
mrtennis older jeff roland models 6,8t or 9t might work for you;my model 6 monoblocks perform quite well on my soundlab m2's;the original owner of the m2's was driving them with model 9t monoblocks.It might be the sound you are striving for.
the bel canto ref 1000m monoblocks i am running might be worth a try. very non fatigu ing, even running triangle monitors which can be more towards the hot and analytic side of things, way more than maggies when i had them.
as i have said, a decent ss amp--200 watts or more elicits bass frequenecies that are remarkable.
i haven't tried many ss amps, but i have treid a 300 watt class a--phenomenal bass, called the Jaton, i have tried roger sanders ss amp (i don't remember what version), and i have tried two "classs D" amps, the raptors, and another whose name escapes me.
years ago, i visited woodbridge stereo and hear the 3.5s with a pass pre and amp. i did not like what i heard. again, i don't remember the model number of the pass gear, nor the digital source.
i have not heard a panel speaker with sold state that does not have unplesantness in the treble.
a friend has an old plinius and someone suggested the levenson 23 or 23.5. i am also interested in hearing an edge amp.
tube amps are more gentle when they clip. perhaps the non-tube amps i have heard exhibited some odd order harmonic distortion which was unpleasant at spls exceeeding 80 + db.
i am open to other suggestions. i woyuld prefer a slight decrement in treble frequencies starting at 10k. yes, its coloration, and i think most designers would not deliberately incorporate such a frequency response in their designs. i am open to ideas , provided the treble reponse is rather well behaved.
i don't remember being impreseed with ss amps and panel speakers at shows or at friensds' stereo systems, but i am getting a bit annoyed at the efforts required to maintain optimal performance of tube amps so i would love to find a ss amp as a replacement.
many have said that there is no ss amp that is audibly undetectable from the sound of a tube amp.
then again, some of the current tube amps are not the most pleasant in the treble .
What SS amp specifically produces the treble issues?
I'm seeing that tube amps and maggies are not a bad combo these days, especially with a sub thrown in the mix if desired. My favorite dealer runs this combo these days in his top system room. Maggies are not inherently "muscle" speakers in regards to the low end, not requiring high damping or high current to be driven well from my experience (though they do need SS power to go loud), so I think more moderate powered tube amps can do them well.
I wish I still had my old Mg1Cs. I'd like to hear how they sound off my current Bel Canto Icepower amps. I ran them off a Carver m4.0t (a 360w/ch Ss amp voiced to sound like carver's Silver Seven tube amps) very nicely for years. No top-end fatigue there. The more you listened, the more you wanted to listen, as it should be with Maggies (no fatigue). Maybe that answers the question about SS amps sounding like tube amps, at least in regards to the top end and no fatigue, at least with older Maggies? I did prefer the maggies running with a separate powered sub however in order to get a more muscular low end. My current OHM 5s replaced the Maggies (no sub needed with these).
I think you are hearing the way the impedance of the speakers is acting when being driven by tube amplification vs solid state power;it just so happens you are hearing it in the treble frequency range;its all part of matching the proper amps with the speakers in my opinion.
when i use my vtl amp on the magggies the treble and upper mids are well behaved. so, i conclude that it may be clipping issues or the solid state transistoritis in the treble when mated with panels, when playing loud, for me over 85 db is loud.
MrTennis, As a long time Magnepan guy, part of your issue with the 1.6s may be more setup than the speaker itself. At one point I was tweaking the toe every couple days. Bad image here or too bright or whatever. Finally, in reading around, I found out that Magnepan SWAPPED SIDES on me in the mid-90s. Yep, you are probably listening to the mylar side, with the connection plate and fuse in BACK where you can't see it. You may even have the tweeters out. I think that's what the 'book' calls for. My MG-1s were mylar back and it never occurred to me that Magnepan changed that......My 1.6s now remind me of my old speakers, but MORE in every way....if that makes sense? Well, ForGet It. Just rotate your panels IN PLACE. Put the pole piece facing you, the listener and the tweeters 'in'. My brightness disappeared due to my now crossing the speakers axis behind my sitting position. I couldn't do this before without some funny (not funny, really) image artifacts or even a 'hole' in the center. Now, I have a much better image, no comb effects, smoother HF response, the resistors which I had on the table threatening to install are now put away and the sweet spot is MUCH wider.
I was going to tell an inside story about the Manley TNT when this thread started as a another tube/SS debate but that was not the OP's intent. Not supposed to know that anyhow.
Don't know if the tube amps I've known have been rolled off on upper frequencies or the better SS amps have been too "hot" but I tend toward the former. Consider that the higher frequency harshness that you're sensing may not be frequency related as much as time related, as if that helps. Different animal, different habitat.
As far as the Plinius, it does have the switch to run in A/B when not used or for casual listening. The "laid-back" soundstage might be a big adjustment from vintage tubes or, for that matter, vintage SS. Guaranteed it's a better match for the 1.6's than the old VTL 120.
hifisoundguy all the problems except tubes also occur in solid state gear as well;the tube issue is easily resolved by buying from sellers whom other members recommend or ones with stellar credability.The popping noise that comes and goes is one that I circumvent by testing my tubes on a b&k 747 tester on a regular basis;how do you test your ice modules,mosfets,or bipolar transistors;can be tough to desolder from a multilayer circuit board.I don't think a tube degrades quickly unless maybe it is a infant mortality related;which can also, happen to solid state due to ESD or even high humidity causing leakage;leading to breakdown and failure as well.
Hifisoundguy you really believe tube audio will fall to class D amps? Why do you think this I am just wondering;You mention tube problems and tube owners don't want to talk about;all I can say is device or tube failure occurs on both products and I don't think there is a huge % that leans toward tubes;when you own tubes I have learned that it is not a major or audio ending event;what happens when a output transistor or output module fails its part of the hobby;no big surprise in my opinion. I have audio valve challanger 180 mono's and jeff roland model 6 monoblocks and think both products do their job extremely well but I just think in my system the tubes have a slight edge in overall system performance. Mrtennis when you have tubes on these speakers does that treble response occur?
Tvad, tube gear has reliability issues..bad solder joints, tubes that only last for a short time and sometimes you buy brand new tubes that are already bad, capacitors blowing out and loud poping noises that come and go at any time. Also tubes degrades very quickly (((sound wise)))
Nobody wants to talk about the problems you have with tube gear but thats all right because class D in the future will over-take tube gear with better sound...its only a matter of time !..
I have NEVER bought speakers based on a solid state demo. I was unaware of this to a point, so it had nothing to do with being biased towards tubes, in fact, it is what sold be 100% on tubes and trying to get it right with SS, imho, is a waste of time- just get into the music and don't worry. It cracks me up when someone is debating between 2 or 3 SS amps that are basically the same when they could have better sound for less money with a tube amp.
While listening to some Avalon speakers at a dealership, I looked to the side of the room to see which tube amp was supplying the power and was surprised to see that he was using a Belles amp. That's the only time I've been close to being surprised so far.
Agree with Magfan and Mapman 100%. Choose the speaker you love, that will (ought to) guide you to the best amp for you, SS or tubes. Be careful of equipment reviews or opionions outside of system context, it makes all the difference.
Key point regarding amp match to speakers by Magfan.
For example, in my case, my system and amps are geared towards optimizing performance with the OHM Walsh speakers.
I might be more receptive to tube amps if I were gunning to optimize other speakers that are more tube friendly.
Optimizing the amp to best drive the speakers is a way more important consideration than picking ss versus tube in my opinion. That and matching speakers to teh room may be the two most important things to get right when building a system in order to best assure top notch performance.
As a corollary, if tube sound is what you seek, then start with a good tube amp and then find the right speakers that can be run optimally from that.
There may be others, but Merlin is one high end speaker maker that cleverly provides optional tweaks to their speakers that enable optimal matching of tube amps as well as SS to the same speaker (their RC network tweak, which is apparently geared to provide a better impedance load for tube amps to drive in addition to other things). It would be cool if OHM did something similar, but I do not think tube amp affectionados make up a significant enough part of their customer base to bother.
In general, I believe speakers that do not have widely varying impedance curves at various frequencies should work well with either tubes or SS, but tubes may have the overall edge here still in regards to overall tonal balance in general in that I do not think most SS amps these days are voiced for this scenario in that most speakers do not fall into this category. Many modern speaker designs do not meet this criteria and many manufacturers do not provide a lot of info regarding their speakers compatibility with tubes versus SS. They just want to sell their speakers to anyone who might like them and not make things too complicated or restrictive.
Bottom line: Top notch results can be had with either technology if the amp is matched by design to optimally drive the speakers. A great amp can sound lousy running the wrong speakers and vice versa.
Good / Bad designs of both exist. It may not be easy to compare, though since speakers won't be best electrical match for both at the same time.
Best SS designs tolerate some reactive loads better than tubes.
So, if you compare 'best-to-best', you may end up with a tube amp and a certain type of speaker...maybe a single driver, while if you audition a SS amp, you'll find a better speaker.
So, If you're thinking of using a reference pair of speakers to just go thru amps until you find the 'best', forgetit.
Comparing 'best', again, it may BE impossible to tell the difference between tubes and SS in many cases and when using synergistic components. Should that be a surprise?
I feel tubes are getting more SS, but in a good way. The days of coloured midrange and rolled off base and treble, are becoming less common, in tube amps. They still though, for me, have that magical speed, transparency, tonal richness, I find hard to find in SS.
Where are the differences? I am sure as Mapman says, one reason is the benign clipping you get with tube amps. I am sure a SS aficionada will say SS amps do'nt need to clip as they are more powerful at a given price point.
The other reason, I believe, is that tube amps tend to have fewer components in the signal pathway. I know there are exceptions, Pass Labs Aleph series for example. I think thats one reason my Aleph 3 sounded tube like.
The nearest a tube sound I reached in SS, was the Aleph 3 and the Lavardin IT. Nothing else has come close.
"I have auditioned and owned some and have not enjoyed the upper mid range and lower treble of [SS] amps."
I think it's very hard to get away from that once you've heard this in SS.
I was on the hunt for almost ten years trying to find a SS amp that I could live with--and hopefully afford. Long story short: my last SS amp was a Plinius, and now I own an Atma-Sphere OTL. There is always a trade-off of one inconvenience for another, and the one that you can live with is the one that remains between the speakers.
I guess this question will be asked forever. In my experience tubes and SS do sound different. But, I have had tube amps that sound close to SS and SS that sounds close to tubes. Having said that, I have never owned a SS amp that can give the 3D imaging of a tube amp. I have never owned any ultra expensive equipment thou. Maybe there is some SS out there that do.
When I got started in this hobby in 1957it was all tubes, plus mono to boot. As far as I am concerned I will never return to tubes, 20 years with putting up with the constant need for biasing, have a sock drawer full of replacement tubes, plus the cost of the tubes. Back then tubes were cheap and U.S. made , not now. Tubes made in some third world country of dubious value, no thanks. When Nelson Pass finally got SS right in 1977, I couldn't wait to bail out of tubes and I did and never looked back. But thats me and I know that a great many of you just love them little glow bottles, more power to you, as for me never again.
I go into shops now with the newer tube gear and I can't even listen to it now, soft and mushy, just as I knew from years ago, not much has changed but the price of course, gad what some of the tube gear costs now is insane. Plus the re-tube costs a year or so later, that will get you bleeding from the ears in no time.
My best advice accept SS for what it does and does not do and the same holds true for tube gear. There is no holy grail here pick the one that your ears and wallet can live and get on with the music. In the final analysis it is about the music and not so much the gear.
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