my original question has not been answered:
has anyone participated in a "blind" test comparing a solid state amp to a tube amp and been unable to discern the difference between them , say 7 out of 10 times ? |
i have a tube amp which is somewhat unreliable--the vtl deluxe 120s. i was thinking about the possibly replacing it with a ss amp.
i have auditioned and owned some and have not enjoyed the upper mid range and lower trblr of these amps.
i posed the question to find out if anyone actually compared the two types and found a ss amp that was very close in sound to the tube amp they owned at the time.
so far my short list includes a 125 1999 production plinius and an x series pass amp--the latter being on the expensive side, whiloe the former is owned by someone in my audio club.
i believe the plinius is class a, which is not ecologically friendly.
thank you for your feedback and i realize that this topic has been discusssed before but perhaps in a different way. |
i am using quad esls and a magnepan 1.6.
the problem , i have stated is that most sss amps produce a treble response which sounds fatiguing at volumes exceding 85 db.
of course, the magnepan's base is optimized with some ss amps, but the quasi ribbon tweeter gets unlistenable when exceeding volume in the mid 80's. |
when i use my vtl amp on the magggies the treble and upper mids are well behaved. so, i conclude that it may be clipping issues or the solid state transistoritis in the treble when mated with panels, when playing loud, for me over 85 db is loud. |
as i have said, a decent ss amp--200 watts or more elicits bass frequenecies that are remarkable.
i haven't tried many ss amps, but i have treid a 300 watt class a--phenomenal bass, called the Jaton, i have tried roger sanders ss amp (i don't remember what version), and i have tried two "classs D" amps, the raptors, and another whose name escapes me.
years ago, i visited woodbridge stereo and hear the 3.5s with a pass pre and amp. i did not like what i heard. again, i don't remember the model number of the pass gear, nor the digital source.
i have not heard a panel speaker with sold state that does not have unplesantness in the treble.
a friend has an old plinius and someone suggested the levenson 23 or 23.5. i am also interested in hearing an edge amp.
tube amps are more gentle when they clip. perhaps the non-tube amps i have heard exhibited some odd order harmonic distortion which was unpleasant at spls exceeeding 80 + db.
i am open to other suggestions. i woyuld prefer a slight decrement in treble frequencies starting at 10k. yes, its coloration, and i think most designers would not deliberately incorporate such a frequency response in their designs. i am open to ideas , provided the treble reponse is rather well behaved.
i don't remember being impreseed with ss amps and panel speakers at shows or at friensds' stereo systems, but i am getting a bit annoyed at the efforts required to maintain optimal performance of tube amps so i would love to find a ss amp as a replacement.
many have said that there is no ss amp that is audibly undetectable from the sound of a tube amp.
then again, some of the current tube amps are not the most pleasant in the treble . |
as i have stated before, my favorite amp is the conrad johnson mv 125. i am convinced that there does not exists a solid state amp that comes close to the cj.
i don't own the cj. i own a pair of vtl deluxe 120s.
based upon the comments so far , i am confident that i will not find a solid state amp which sounds like the vtls. that is , i would expect that in a blind test, i think i could identify the difference between my vtls and any ss amp.
thus, all i can do is listen to some more ss amps until i throw my hands in the air and give up.
i suspect i should look for class a amps for likely candidates.
incidentally, i once owned a pass aleph 0 and was using it with a pair of quad 63s.
i did not like the treble response and sold the amp. |
hi mapman:
the issue of discerning the difference between a tube amp and a ss amp, ceteris paribus, is of great interest to me.
if i can be foooled or cannot tell the difference between a ss or tube amp as party of a stereo system, why have the tube amp.
ralph: i thinki the issue is planar vs cones , not impedance.
it may be harder to tell the difference between amps using cones, than panels, regardless of a con designs impedance curve.
in my case , a planar owner, i think it is easy to tell the difference between ss and tube amp. electrostats and ribbons do not have the same impedance curve, yet they are -panels.
i have heard rowland and avalon sound very pleasant , when combined, but i have yet to hear a panel speaker with a class d or ss amp drive an electrostat or ribbon, or planar magnetic exhibit a well beheaved upper midrange, treble response.
i realize it is preference and i expect that finding a ss amp that will be livable is almost impossible. i have no illusions, but will not give up the quest, as yet. |
i will repeat, i am not looking for tube-like per se, but rather to be unable to detect the difference between a ss and tube amp, driving a pair of planar speakers.
i might be able to find a ss amp which exhibits tube like characteristics, yet it may also exhibit ss aspects. that is not my goal.
i'll give a crude analogy.
suppose i have an apple. i like to find another fruit that tastes like an apple that is not an apple.
from what i have read so far it is virtually impossible. |
minod, you present some lucid arguments but you neglect to discusss the central concern of this thread, nameley the posssibility that in a given stereo system, a tube and solid state amp produce a "sound", which makes it almost impossible to detect the difference between them ? |
hi magfan:
you make an interesting point regarding differences in sound between "the best of the best" ss and tube amps. i agree with you, but i suspect that such differences will probably be detectable in most cases.
i think it would be interesting for a designer to try to duplicate what bob carver did years ago, when he "fooled" a panel of stereophile's "golden-ears", when he designed a ss amp that could not be distinguished from a cj tube amp by that panel ?
obviously, a particular tube amp would be selected as a bench mark and a ss amp would be designed to sound like the hypothetical tube amp.
can anyone do what bob carver did, again ? |
mapman:
i heard avalon ascent and eclipse sound quite good with rowland and audio research ss amps. i've also heard them sound great with tubes.
in my opinion, the issue of ss vs tubes is more critical when the speaker is an electrostatic, ribbon, or planar magnetic.
i have heard vandersteen 2s sound "good" with ss and tube amps.
there are probably other acoustic suspension designs that can perform well with amps of either type.
i have not heard a panel sound as well with a ss amp as with a good tube amp.
i am trying to go cheap and am considering the khartago (odyssey) and vincent hybrid 331. i would like to audition them before buying, if possible.
since both are under $1000, i might take a chance. |
a hybrid amp--having a tube input stage and ss output stage which is both a tube and solid state amp, has a chance to sound very close to a pure ss or tube amp, by virtue of the ability to alter tube types, may be the answer.
having the versatility of varying tube manufacture could create a more tube like or ss like sound, perhaps creating a sound that is so close to either a pure tube or ss amp, that differences are barely detectable.
mapman, regarding your last point, there was a sss designer, a college professor who designed a ss amp with greater amounts of 2nd and 4th order harmonic distortion, mimicking the sound of a tube amp by creating the pscho acoustic affect of dempahzing treble response. i heard it several years ago at ces. when i can remember the brand name, i will divulge it.
i wrote about this amp, in my review of the ces show at that time.
my point is that like carver, a manufacturer who understands both tube and solid state design and performance could incorporate in a ss amp those features which could create the type of amp i am looking for.
i don't think designers deliberately wish to incorporate coloration, so i will agree that ss and tube amps, will reveal differences , as you have stated which will be recognizable.
personally, i may be willing to accept a solid state amp which can sound pleasant in the treble, yet incorporate greater extension and resolution, so long as it doesn't drive me out of the room. this condition is very subjective.
i would like to keep cost as low as possible and as i indicated would like to audition the odysssey khartago and vincent 331, which is a hybrid amp.
i compliment you on your reasonableness and realistic perspective regarding this issue.
its so basic in audio, that i suspect there is no definitive answer, rather one which one can generate confidence and principles to guide ones personal selection of a particular amp.
i have learned to give up some of my unrealistic desires regarding sound and adopt a more flexible approach.such an approach will allow me to expand my willingness to consider products which i would have not considered years ago.
my stereo system no longer evinces a dark and syrupy sound which i espoused in the past. i have learned to accept a certain level of detail, so long as frequency response is truly balanced. |
