So how many people are using subwoofers


with full range floorstanders? I need just a little more bass weight out of my system and have vascilated between REL subwoofer or upgrading my amp from Conrad Johnson MF-2200 to an MF-2500. 60-70% of the music doesn't need a sub,but that other 30% keeps me off balance. Is the amp upgrade going to give me more bass weight (along with other benefits) or should I just go for the sub? I think I know the answer but would like to hear other opinions.
existing system=
CJ PFR pre
CJ MF-2200 amp
Theta Miles cdp
Silverline Sonata speakers
Homegrown silver lace ic's
MIT-2 bi-wire
128x128artemus_5
Look into the Audiokinesis SWARM subwoofer system.  Four passive subs that you ASYMMETRICALLY distribute around the room with a 1000W amplifier to drive them.  No single sub, (even Vandersteen or REL), can compete with this system, if set up right, and its relatively inexpensive - about $2500.00 for the whole deal.  

Also see Robert Greene's review in TAS from last summer.  He said it was the BEST bass he has ever heard, (and he's heard it all).  I am using it in a Vandersteen 5.1 set-up and I can vouch for REG's observations.  It KILLS my single V2W.

to add to the excellent subs already mentioned here (Rythmik, SVS, Audiokinesis, etc) i will also suggest Seaton Sound.  i recently added a seaton submersive f2 and am EXTREMELY impressed with it's performance for music (for movies, a distant second consideration for me, it's staggeringly good).  for reference, i've also owned subs from JL Audio, Vandersteen and SVS and prefer the seaton sub to all others.
The Swarm system just seems cool and inexpensive…if I wasn't happy with my RELs I'd seriously consider those things. It's true that a lot of music doesn't get to sub territory, but I like the ambient aspect of the sub adding that airy reality to the mix a much as the direct bass reproduction...systems need that to seem more like natural sound.
I like the REL a lot, but you should also look at the Hsu brand - I use a couple for cinema use only and they meld well and are quite tunable, depending on which model you get.  I do use them for music play back with organ - my main speakers are 3db down at 20 Hz while the Hsu go down to 16 Hz (what you need to reproduce a 32' organ stop, which you feel rather than hear)
I agree Wolf.  I wonder how many have not purchased them because they are not priced high enough.  I paid about that for my one SW-12, used.
dc, you say,
"I can vouch for REG's observations.  It KILLS my single V2W"
What is your context?  Did you hear REG's set-up, or have you tried them in your own system? I haven't heard much from owners but I am curious.  
I am a big fan of having sub woofers.  Having said that, I find that it takes a lot of patience to get them "dialed in" to the room and the side speakers.

A few months ago I upgraded from a pair of two-way monitors to a pair of three-way floor standing speakers whose specs indicate bass as low as 37hz.  It took a while, but when I got the floor standers in just the right spot, they sound great, but don't really produce that last octave of bass.

I ordered a pair of JL Audio F113V2 sub woofers, really great subs, but they brought out all sorts of problems with the room.  I have installed six bass traps, and have two more on order, and am on my way getting the boominess out of the room, but it's been a struggle.

My former system was in a much smaller living room, took some time to get the sub dialed in, but once I did, it put a wide grin on my face!

For me, I really enjoy having that last octave of the musical spectrum, so it's been worth the investment of time, patience and money.
I agree wholeheartedly when Bob Reynolds says:
" Utilizing a sub, any sub, is all about the setup".

I'm now on my fourth or fifth setup with subs and in all cases it's taken a while to get them properly "integrated" in the system.

A few months ago I added a pair of JL Audio subs to a new setup, which was really "dialed in" to the room before the subs arrived.  Long-story-short, the room had a lot of "ringing" at low frequencies, but 10 bass traps later, using the Room EQ Wizard software and a calibration microphone, got the "ringing" under control and the subs really well "integrated".

One of my buddies says that "the best sub doesn't sound like it's working"...until you unplug it and find that last octave or so of low bass really works best with a sub.

One last thing, if you can swing a pair of subs, there is something more "visceral" having them, hearing and feeling the bass coming from one side of the sound stage or another (or both).

Good luck!  I hope you have success integrating sub(s) into your system, if you do, you'll have a wide smile on your face!
Wow! I just stumbled across this. I'm amazed that this thread was picked up after such a long period. If you look, my original post was made 03-21-2002 6:59pm . That's 14 years ago.

Not complaining. But my system has come a long way sincee then. Yet some components remain. I did buy a Rel Storm 3 sometime after I made the initial post. Its done very well. But I just installed hardwood floor and am considering replacing the Rel or adding another to go with it. However, I'm not sure another brand or even another Rel would match up well unless it was another Storm 3. So I've looked at the HSU, The Rythmik, The SVS and the Golden Ear among others. Nontheless, I appreciate the new posts. I'll look them over. Thanks

arte

BTW system is listed if you are interested. Picys need update though. 
My RELs only match in the sense that they are from the same manufacturing period, and since they're in different acoustic surroundings in  my listening space it seems not to matter that they're designed differently ("Q" series front firing 10" 150 watts vs. down firing 8" 100 watts). They sound very similar as far as comparing these subs can reveal, and maybe it's actually better they're dissimilar…in any case they work splendidly.
best article I've seen discussing this....

August 3, 2008 


http://ultrafi.com/why-everybody-needs-a-good-subwoofer/

…And Why a Really Good Subwoofer is so Hard to Find

Audiophiles and music lovers are missing out on one of the most dramatic improvements they can make to their audio system: Powered Subwoofers. 

Most audiophiles won’t even use the word “subwoofer” in public, let alone plug one in to their precious systems. There is a kind of snobbery that exists in the world of high-end audio aimed primarily at receivers, car audio, home theater and especially subwoofers. As a matter of fact, subwoofers are responsible for many people disliking both car audio and home theater, since it is the subwoofer in both of those situations that tends to call attention to the system and cause many of the problems.

The truth of the matter is that subwoofers have fully earned their bad reputation. They usually suck. Most of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck. 

We have all had our fair share of bad subwoofer experiences, whether it’s from a nearby car thumping so loud that it appears to be bouncing up off the road, or a home theater with such overblown bass that it causes you to feel nauseous half-way through the movie. You would think that high-end audio manufacturers would be above all of that, but you would be wrong. In many cases, their subwoofers are almost as bad as the mass-market models because they too, are trying to capitalize on the home theater trend that is sweeping the land.

You see, it’s very difficult and expensive to build a good subwoofer. One reason is that a sub has to move a tremendous amount of air, which places big demands on the driver (or drivers). Moving lots of air requires a lot of power and that means an amp with a huge power supply, which can cost huge money. 

Finally, in trying to move all of this air, the driver (or drivers) which operate in an enclosure, create tremendous pressure inside of the box itself. The cabinet walls must be able to handle this pressure without flexing or resonating. Building such a box involves heavy damping and bracing which gets very expensive. When you consider these requirements, you quickly realize that it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $1000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $500 and $900. Manufacturers do this because their marketing research has shown them that that is what people want to spend on a sub, never mind the fact that what people want to spend and what it takes to get the job done right may be two different things. The result is that even most high-end manufacturers are putting out poorly constructed subwoofers that just don’t sound very good.

I don’t want to give you the impression that anyone who really wants to can build a good subwoofer so long as they are willing to throw enough money at the problem, because that really isn’t true either. There are some pretty expensive and well-constructed subwoofers out there that you would never want to plug into your music system because they would most certainly make the sound worse. 

Why? Because of their crossovers. 

A crossover is inserted into your signal path in order to remove the lowest frequencies (the deep bass) from your main speakers so that they no longer have to do all of the dirty work. The deep bass will instead be dealt with by the subwoofer. 

The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwoofer to your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up. That, my friends, is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass. 

They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls. 

And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier. 


The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits. And the crossover that comes with almost every subwoofer on the market will cause more damage to your signal than can be overcome by these benefits. That is the main reason that audiophiles refuse to consider adding subwoofers, even very expensive ones with well built cabinets.

Enter the Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subwoofer. This is the only subwoofer that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal. 

So how does Vandersteen do it? 

Simply. In fact his crossover scheme is so ingeniously simple that it’s a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way. I’ll spare you an in-depth description and just say that the only thing you end up inserting into your system is a couple of high quality capacitors. That’s it, nothing more! 

No additional wires or gadgets enter your signal path. Hell, you don’t even have to disconnect the wire between your amp and speakers to add this subwoofer. The model 2Wq sub uses the same basic crossover scheme as the $15,000 flagship Model 5As. As a matter of fact, you can even run the specially designed Model 5A crossovers (M5-HP) with the 2Wq if you want the most transparent sound imaginable.

So what about the other reason to add a subwoofer to your system: for more powerful and extended bass? I don’t care how big your main speakers are, they’re no match for a good subwoofer in the bass. 

A really good subwoofer can run rings around the best floorstanding speakers when it comes to bass extension, power and control because it is designed to be good at that and nothing but that, whereas main speakers have to be good at higher frequencies as well. Ideally, you want two subwoofers so that you have true stereo separation down deep into the bass. Stereo subs can also help to lessen room interaction problems by providing two discrete sources of bass information. Remember, if you can’t afford to buy two subwoofers at once, you can always add the second one later. Adding a pair of 300 watt powered subwoofers is exactly like adding a pair of 300 watt monoblock amplifiers to your system and upgrading to a pair of better main speakers at the same time. The beauty is that you don’t have to replace your main power amp or speakers to do it.

But there is a problem here as well. 

Everything comes at a price, and the price you pay with most subwoofers is that when you add them and their built-in amplifiers to your system, they don’t tend to blend or integrate well with the sound of your power amp and speakers. This is especially true if you own a tube amp, because the character of your amp is nothing like the character of the big solid-state amp that is built into most subwoofers. 

The result is that your system sounds split in half. You can hear where one part of the system leaves off (namely your amp and speakers) and where the other part takes over (the sub and its amp). This is a HUGE problem for audiophiles who aren’t willing to destroy their system’s coherence for additional power and bass extension. 

Fortunately, Vandersteen has the perfect solution for this problem that is, again, so simple, I wonder why nobody else thought of it first. His solution is to build a very powerful 300 watt amplifier that strictly provides the huge current needed to drive the subwoofer. You can think of this amplifier as only half of an amplifier; or just the power portion of an amplifier. The release of this power is controlled by the signal that is provided by your power amp. Vandersteen’s amplifier needs a voltage to modulate its current output, and what better place to get that voltage than from your main power amp? This way, your power amplifier is directly responsible for the sonic character of the deep bass coming from the subwoofer because it provides the necessary voltage signal. This voltage signal contains the unique and characteristic sound of your main power amplifier and insures that that character is maintained in the sound of the subwoofer itself. The beauty of it is that your amplifier is only providing a voltage reference and no actual current, so it is not taxed with the burden of “driving” the subwoofer in any way. As a matter of fact, your amplifier doesn’t even know that the sub is connected to it. The 2Wq’s potential is almost unlimited given that it will ratchet up its performance as you improve your power amp. Remember that you always want your subwoofer to sound just like your power amp. No better, no worse. NO DIFFERENT!

After having spent time with the amazing Vandersteen Model 5A loudspeakers with their 400-watt powered, metal cone subwoofers, we were reminded of the sound we had with the awesome Audio Research Reference 600 mono power amps. With the Ref 600s there was a sense of effortlessness, openness and unrestricted dynamic freedom that we have only otherwise heard with live unamplified music. 

Listening to those monstrously powerful amps made us realize that all other systems sound compressed by comparison. Only when we heard the new Vandersteen Model 5As with their hugely powerful built-in subwoofers, did we again have a strikingly similar sonic experience. The reason is that the Model 5As provide a total of 800 high-quality watts, to which you have to remember to add the power of the amp we were using, the ARC VT-100, at 200 watts. 

This means we were listening to about 1000 total watts of amplifier power – not far from the 1200 total watts provided by the Ref 600s. With the Vandersteen subwoofer crossover and amplifier, you are able to get those hundreds of subwoofer watts to blend seamlessly and even take on the character of the ARC VT-100. It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs. 

So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close. 

You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers. 

Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen. 

It is for all of the above reasons that there is only one subwoofer in existence capable of integrating seamlessly into a high-end music system, allowing you to reap all of the benefits of having a subwoofer, with none of the drawbacks. 

And the Vandersteen 2Wq is the one. And just in case you think I am a biased source, our correspondent Blaine Peck (who, for all you know is also a biased source) recently wrote the following, with no discussion between us about the topic prior to his sending us his comments. 

Whether reproducing the plucked string of an acoustic bass or the sound of an analog synthesizer, the Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofer is a seamless extension of any system. Nothing else need be added! With its internal 300-watt power amplifier, it is the perfect compliment to any sound system. Designed to take on the characteristics of your main stereo amplifier, the amp in the 2Wq will not sound foreign in your system. Also, through an extension of the Vandersteen design philosophy, a unique gradually sloping crossover system is implemented so you simply do not know where your main speakers stop and the 2Wq begins.

Now that your main speaker/amplifier combination need not concern themselves with those power demanding low frequencies, they are freed up to work in a more comfortable range. Yes, now what is coming from your main speakers will sound better than ever.

The 2Wq is not just another subwoofer. It consists of three 8″ floor-facing drivers, each with a massive motor. So why not a more typical single 12″ or 15″ design? Well frankly, the mass of a larger driver will not allow it to respond as quickly as the Vandersteen 8″ drivers to today’s demanding recordings. The 2Wq’s 8″ drivers are designed to handle the content but be “fleet of foot” at the same time. Concerned about where to put them? You need not worry. With the control of both its respective level and the “q” (how loose or tight the low end is) you have the flexibility to place them in a location that fits your living environment and not sacrifice performance. The simple beauty of this product will soon become an addition to your room.

So whether on orchestral music, hard rock or something in between, the Vandersteen 2Wq will exceed your expectations.



I agree with Wolfe that real sub-20Hz subs add venue ambience and imaging and space cues that aren’t there without them. A few years ago I had a modest subscription to the Seattle Symphony for a few seasons, and I remember noticing that the concert hall sort of "crackled" with energy even before the music started.

Ever since that experience I have been reaching the theory/conclusion that when shopping for new speakers you should start with the subwoofer(s). And if you’re looking for the "absolute sound" you’ll *never* achieve it without serious subs that can define the space.

Properly chosen subwoofers will determine how well you can energize your listening space (helping determine how much contribution you need from the L-R stereo pair), and just how much infrasonic atmosphere you want to add to the experience.

Here is an excerpt of Jacob Heilbrunn’s contribution to a review of a pair of JL Gotham subs ($24K/pair, now $30K for V2):

"Turn the two subs off and it sounds as though the mains shrank in size and volume – even on a Bach solo guitar piece. Weird? Definitely. But impossible to refute. There is apparently information in the subsonic region that fills out the sound of a concert hall. Once you’ve heard it, you can’t go back."


– Jacob Heilbrunn, TONEAudio

No one would think, as one’s basking in the sound of a pair of high-end minimonitors reproducing solo classical guitar, that he’d want (or need) a sub. But there it is.

Tip for integrating subs to mains: I have a pair of modest little 8" subs (Mirage MM8s, out of business, out of production). They don’t reproduce that sub-24Hz venue energy, but they flesh out the 35-50Hz region of my Maggie 1.7s. Fortunately they have a great set of controls--volume, continuous phase knob from 0-270 deg., and crossover point from 50Hz (wish it was 40) up to 150 and from there, open-ended.

For awhile I was noticing a persistent hump around 100 Hz which was annoying. Normally I’d think it was a box or port resonance, but these are maggies and I figured it might be a crossover (betwen subs & Maggies) issue that was exciting a room resonance.

I put on my mono copy of Sgt. Pepper’s and cued up "A Little Help From My Friends." My reasoning was that it would be easier to dial in dual subwoofers with a mono signal, and it would be easier to address the crossover point with Paul’s very melodic bassline in this number that dances back and forth across the 50Hz crossover point.

While playing the music, I turned one sub off while I adjusted the knobs on the other. It turned out the phase control was the issue. I have the subs sitting about 2’ behind the panels with the main sub diaphragm facing the wall to augment volume and extension. When I turned the phase dial from 0deg. to about 160 deg. out of phase, the hump disappeared. I turned it off and tried the same with the other sub, and voila! That sub popped into proper focus (and the hum disappeared) at the exact same setting, -160 deg.

Since that very quick episode I have enjoyed totally integrated subs’n’panels on every kind of music I throw at them.

You might say I got better sub integration with "A Little Help From My Friends" even though nobody came over to my house.