you might want to pm member mikelavigne, who owned a rockport for quite a while and has heard/owned most other bleeding edge tables and arms.
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Hi Dan, Two very different takes on vinyl. They are not close in any way that I hear. I prefer the pace, timing and clarity of the Rockport. There is a solidity that I do not hear with the Walker. This is not meant in any way as a slight on the Walker, it is just a different approach and to my ears, direct drive, properly implemented, cannot be touched by most belt drive systems I really like Lloyd and he works very hard at making his turntable sound great and I have heard the Walker sound magical, but the Rockport approach is much more elegant and simpler and that, to me, transfers sonically. Regards, Jonathan |
Hi everyone, very interesting topic! I have obtained a used ET2 with Bruces upgrade 2.5 bearing, but have yet to set it up. I am very interested in the discussion on the I-beam compliance. As far as I can tell, the arm on the Walker Proscenium turntable (which is of similar design to the ET2) has a direct couple counterweight. Since the Walker is being regarded as one of the best, I was thinking of modifying the ET2 in such manner. I wonder what are the pros and cons to the 2 different approaches. |
Dear Danhirsh: IMHO I think that a precise bis a bis comparison between these great TTs is something almost impossible to have because both use two different dedicated tonearms and we have to remember that the cartridge/tonearm relationship is so close that makes a unit where the quality performance level and differences resides mainly in this tonearm/cartridge relationship. This not means that the TT is not important or that it does not add its own signature because it did. For me to make a comparison a fair comparison could be only if both TT share the same tonearm. In this way we can really have and know the real contribution by each TT in the overall quality performance level. Anyway, the ones with experiences on both sides as Jtinn or M.Lavigne are very good and the only " approach " about. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hello, I have had the Sirius System lll in my room. The same Sirius that JTinn is discussing. As JTinn has told me, the Sirius, as it was setup by its previous owner, was not able to successfully navigate the inner groves. Therefore, I do not believe that JTinn has heard the Rockport as it was designed to present music that is recorded on vinyl. The Rockport Sirius System lll, is a system, a finely-tuned machine and as such, requires a careful focused understanding of how all of the constituent parts come together to make a whole. Tim Sheridan, the designer of the Sirius motor drive, was here last month. Eventhough the Rockport is out of production, there appears that there may up to an additional sixteen pristine Sirius System lll TTs that are patiently waiting to spin sometime in the distant future. I have heard Lloyd Walker's machine. It is an all out assault by the resident mad genius of our hobby; currently in production and universally loved by their owners...definitely a loyal fan group! No hidden secret sauce, just a well-designed machine and a transparent window to the source. ...and I do like string-driven machines; such as, the big Micro Seikis. |
Dear Unoear: Can I understand from your post that that Sirius owner was hearing not the real performance in the Sirius but only a " bad copy "? Is hard to imagine some one that invest on that great TT and that he as the Sirius manufacturer can't took in count that wrong set-up!?!?!???, but things happen. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hello, I can confirm Unoear's description. When I was his guest in late November 2011, we tried real hard getting the Sirius III to track a whole record side. It proofed impossible - due to the original stock tonearm wire. No matter what we tried - the tonearm wire is way too stiff and does heavily influence the tangential movement after about 2 inches into the record. And there were 3 seasoned audiophiles trying their luck real hard - all of them with intimate personal experience with several air-bearing tonearms. Cheers, D. |
Hello Raul, yes, it appears that your observation is correct. Hi Daniel, yes, we did really try. Daniel and myself were going to either rewire the tonearm on the Rockport or utilize the template that we had manufactured for a replacement FR-64s silver tonearm. The later was simply called blasphemy by Syntax, and former would have not been acceptable to the new custodian; a fine chap that has a small collection of Rockports and has a propensity for Stonebody cartridges. Mmakshak, IMHO, the directdrive unit with the Rockport is top of the class! When you refer to cheaper ones...are you thinking of the recapped/ newplinth SP-Mk3 and/or this other new one? They were both being offered for around $12.5k a few months ago. Cheers! |
Dear Unoear, Dertonarm, Do you mean the Rockport arm would skip track or has serious distortion towards the end of the LPs? I have been using the Rockport 6000 arm on their Capella II turntable for nearly 10 years now. While I cant say the wire has no effect on tracking, I have never had any problem with the arm tracking the whole record. Of course, I need to clean the spindle with alcohol occasionally. As such, it is quite unimaginable that it would happen to the Sirius III ! Cheers! |
Dear Unoear, I took a careful look at the photos of your tone arm, and here are a couple of suggestions: 1. I see that the wire are nearly completely covered by the black shrink wrap (or it may actually be a host, I am not sure as I dont have my 6000 arm right in front of me), and only a couple inches of the bare wire was showing. In my 6000 arm the shrink wrap only covers the wire an inch or so where it exits the guider at the back and before it enters the armtube holder, so there was mainly bare wire hanging all the way. I think it you could strip out the shrink wrap (or it can be pulled back if it is a host), there will be much less resistance. Curiously, I have seen a photo of Mikes Rockport, which seems to show a lot of bare wires hanging: http://pic8.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1297789006.jpg 2. In your photo, the black airhost was leaning on one side. If you can arrange it to hang like an n, then there will be much less resistance. There is actually a small nozzle where the airhost enter the armtube holder, and the airhost can be pulled free. So, you can do a little twisting on the airhost at the nozzle to make it hang like an n. The same applies to the wire, but it needs more coaxing! This is how it looks like in my system: http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f20/daiwok/Hi%20Fi/IMG_1823.jpg Hope these help. Cheers! |
What amazes me always in those discussions, is how many name a turntable "great design" and have absolutely no idea from its Performance (see here, or NVS, or Continuum and more). Let's face it, most of us (I am an exception) hear with their eyes. And when the price tag is in the upper region, well, then we have it. THE great design. And it is absolutely not necessary to insist, that for such a comparison each Turntable has to have the same Arm. A typical excuse from an "Audiophile" who does not know what is responsible for what. In a way, it is very good because it keeps that hobby alive, specially for those who want to spend big money and for those who do not have that money but dream of these "machines". This fact amazes me most all over the years. It is not difficult to hear imo, but most can't hear what is going on in front of them and that's fact. Nice toys (same for Continuum, Kuzma XL & more). Now I believe that some prefer a 800$ Technics SP-10 Turntable (with a 12k plinth to make it serious). Don't get me wrong, all is compensated by "reviews". Sometimes I think, the manufacturer writes them and |
Unoear, I'm afraid my experience is limited to some of the older Denon's, the Nakamichi centering turntable, the $400 Technics that you can still buy new, and some needle-drops of the Technics sp10 mk11. I cannot afford $12.5k. Since I'm speaking my mind, the way that Salvador speaks of Linn turntables, comes to mind with the direct-drives that I've heard. In the relentless quest of absolute drive(equivalent to Linn's simplification of music, i.e.playing the tune), it comes to mind that music might be simplified. My example is a needle drop that I heard comparing(I think it was)"Let if Be", by the Beatles. One version was, I think, a direct-drive, the other was a well-sorted Linn(maybe a Radikal?). I believe I heard this on Pink Fish media. |
What amazes me always in those discussions, is, how many name a turntable "great design" and have absolutely no idea from its Performance (see here, or NVS, or Continuum and more). Let's face it, most of us (I am an exception) hear with their eyes. And when the price tag is in the upper region, well, then we have it. THE great design. And it is absolutely not necessary to insist, that for such a comparison each Turntable has to have the same Arm. A typical excuse from an "Audiophile" who does not know what is responsible for what. In a way, it is very good because it keeps that hobby alive, specially for those who want to spend big money and for those who do not have that money but dream of these "machines". Fun counts. Or? |
In a way ... A cerainly not acceptable way, mostly Zombie like dead. Alive ... (for the market yes), but with such a rotten blood inside, that makes it nothing but a lost hope for the users and their illusory dreams. Means no progress and therefore no hope for the future if we continue to connive at. We have to resist. We owe this as a respect to our hobby and to our self. We must remind allways that the good sound is growing slowly after toilsomeness work and it can't just rise suddenly (just because we throw a fortune) from within the next boutique TT. For how long are we going to give food to the corrupt market monster? Stop to assume by the looks & price. At the end of the day we are alone with only this (THE great!) piece of shit that we have bought. Fun counts? For the market a big one. Maybe also for the decorator. Βut where are we in all of this fraud? Why we choose to accept the pioneer moron role? AMAZING indeed! Some of us we've allready pay for this, but as we tend to forget these days, our new world is motivated only after the premise of the profit growth. There is no room for reseach & development in our times. So, have we trained enough to distinguish the genuine from the fake? No we would never be able to predict the market's next surprise. Αll we can do is to listen & compare before we buy, but even in this field of listening, we must to learn "what is going on in front of us and what is responsible for what" as Syntax pointed. This is the foremost necessity and our only wheapon in this battle of faulse dreams and delusional auditions. |
Unoear: I never said any such thing. You are misquoting me and manipulating the truth as you have in this past as it suits you. I have heard the Rockport many, many times in many different configurations. I have even spent quite a bit of time listening to it at Andy Payor's house as well as Mike Lavigne's and I am intimately familiar with it. Many different cartridges were used and setup at different times by numerous people including Mike Lavigne himself, Steve Dobbins, Joel Durand, and Scott Sheaffer to name just a few. There was nothing wrong with the turntable when it was at Mike's and you were even there listnening to it before purchasing. You even packed up the table and arm with Mike. The only thing you did not pack was possibly the compressor and air hose. Are you saying you bought it knowing it did not track well after hearing it? Or, did it take someone else to tell you this at your house after you set up this very "finely-tuned machine"? I suggest you improperly setup the table / arm and you yourself are not hearing its true potential. If any of the users here on Audiogon take a look at your posts and threads, it will be clear to them that you have an agenda to discredit me and those who own my products or even those who speak positively of my products. Your posts, in regards to my products or my customers, show like a wolf in sheep's clothing and always attack in a very shrewd and sly manner and finish off as it is friendly banter. You have nothing to lose and therefore you keep coming. I have avoided any engagement with you because for me it is a losing battle and a complete waste of time since I am in the industry and therefore an easy target. I just thought it was time to clarify things and I sure hope you do not perpetuate this. Jonathan Tinn |
Hi JTinn, Nice to hear from you! Are you the same chap that is slamming the Walker TT in this thread? You do tend to discount others efforts for the appearance of your own benefit. Please see your comments that you posted above regarding the Walker TT ( you build the NVS turntable; a new and and untested by time turntable)...then there are all of those Magico comments. Maybe you missed my earlier post, Tim Sheridan was here in December checking out the Rockport and told me that it was setup properly. You may know of Tim, he is the designer of the motor controller and, if course, is intimately familiar with the Rockport. He gave it a good "bill of health" and fine-tuned the MDA. I know that you are a busy man and maybe you forgot the comments from the conversation that we had last June. You were selling the benefits and features of your new turntable and mentioned the issue regarding inner groves with linear trackers. Maybe I misunderstood your comment... Cheers! (a happy and pleseant comment!) |
The table was in a condition which was unable to navigate more than 3 tracks (and it never was able to do more without destroying the cantilever of a cartridge). When your technical understanding is so limited, then you should be lucky that you are able to survive from your sales. You are responsible to the deletion of the NVS thread, so please don't try to discredit others who have a bit of intelligence for given facts. |
Syntax said: The table was in a condition which was unable to navigate more than 3 tracks... First the disclosure, other than a happy user of the Rockport Capella II and the 6000 arm in Hong Kong, I have no connection with Andy Payor, Jonathan Tinn or Mike Lavigne. If what Syntax said is true, then I am absolutely sure this Sirius III, at least the arm, is not set up properly or it is somehow defected! While we can have difference preference on tables, and one could prefer XXX over the Rockport etc., it is hard to imagine a highly regarded table like the Sirius III cannot navigate more than 3 tracks?!!! The Sirius III was in production for many years before it was discontinued, how could it have this serious problem and kept on selling, especially at $75,000 if I remember correctly! As I mentioned in my earlier post, if Unoears Sirius III arm is set up like what he posted in another thread http://i44.tinypic.com/cj5s8.jpg then I am sure the wire arrangement is not what Rockport has intended. As a matter of fact, I have never seen wires arranged like that on any Rockport arms. Again, I am not claiming the wire does not affect the arms tracking at all, but I have had no problem with my 6000 arm for nearly 10 years, so it is unbelievable to me that the wire, if set up as Rockport has intended, has such an effect as to prevent the arm from navigating more than 3 tracks! |
Jonathan Tinn should be declaring his interest as a manufacturer when passing comment on turntable performance. Reading his profile and system it is clear he makes subjective comments on competing products performance without declaring his interest. By contrast J Carr when commenting on cartridges restricts himself to design aspects and does not tend to make comment on overall performance. My advice to you all is to ignore JTinn comments as it is biased and certainly I wouldn't take advice from one who designs turntables that cannot be transported without damaging the main bearing and goes on to present a faulty turntable as a state of the art product as he did with the NVS. |
my hope is that Unoear enjoys the Rockport completely. until a few days ago i was not aware of this mis-tracking problem. in that context, as the 8 year owner of that particular Rockport, i know that there are a few different issues which could potentially cause this mis-tracking that is mentioned. as i recall, i did cover most of these issues with Unoear when he visited me. i suppose that Andy Payor may know of other possible causes. (1) looking at the picture i'd guess that the wires are twisted compared to my memory and pictures. somehow when the arm wand was moved or installed an extra twist might have occured. this is the most obvious reason for the mis-tracking. (2) there might be some sort of contamination on the arm shaft. cleaning with acetone would resolve that. (3) the arm might not be level. leveling the plinth would solve that. (4) mositure in the compressor. if left on for more than 2 hours without stopping, the air lines will accumulate moisture. the mositure would get on the arm shaft. the air lines would need to be dryed out with compressed air. (5) the arm is too high and the cartridge actually does not have enough VTF on the inner grooves. (6) the nut on the end of the arm shaft might be loose. the arm could bind up. (7) dust build-up on the arm shaft. always move the arm back and forth once before using so any dust is moved aside. #2 thru #7 are unlikely based on the 'talent' that has observed the Rockport at Unoear's place; but possible. at various times i did observe each one of those conditions.....although all of those were in the first few years of ownership....the learning curve. since that time there has been no problems with this issue. i sincerely hope that this 'problem' can get resolved and Unoear can be fully happy with this great tt. |
Dover: Everyone here is biased. You are biased to the products you own as is everyone else. I am not talking about my product in any way. I am talking about two products with much different approaches and am simply answering the question based on my experience with each table. Nothing wrong with that. You do not know what you are talking about and you should research the word libel. Do you really want to continue this? |
Jtinn, As you have acknowledged we are all biased in some way or another. Context is important in trying to understand the views that people put forward. In your system you have made the following statement "The Wave Kinetics NVS Direct Drive Turntable is absolutely in a league of it's own. Having a great deal of experience with the likes of the Rockport Sirius III, Continuum, SME 30, Forsell Reference, Grand Prix Audio Monaco, VPI HRX, Nottingham Hyperspace, Basis Debut, Lodo Audio The Beat, Kuzma Stabi XL, Vyger Indian Signature, Walker Proscenium and many others, this turntable is truly unique. It is immediately noticeable. " I have been given to understand that you are the manufacturer of the NVS. If you are then that should be stated to give context around your statements on turntables. This does not mean what you say is true or not, it merely provides context for readers of your observations and posts. If you are not the manufacturer of the NVS, then I have been misinformed and would be happy to retract my comments. |
Yes, bias a part of the makeup of this audio hobby... I like the hueristic that can play out in an escalation of a confirmation bias. For example, how else could one explain loving a transducer so much that one would destroy and replace the innocent other...violently removing the Sheetrock covering of the container to ineffectively pay for the sins of a highly loved and promoted wired out-of-phase speaker. Audiophiles do find unusual ways of mimicking life; maybe, more so in the glorious northwest. |
Dear Unoear, I have no dog in this fight, but do I correctly understand the following? (1) You went to Mike's home and listened to the Sirius prior to purchase. (2) You evidently liked what you heard, because you then bought it from Mike. (3) You were present during the disassembly and packing of the Sirius at Mike's home. (4) You reassembled the Sirius in your own listening room, AND the reassembled unit was then blessed by a member of Rockport's original design team. (5) Now you and Dertonearm find that the Sirius "cannot track" more than 3 cuts from the outer edge of an LP before seriously mistracking. And you are saying what? The Sirius is an overpriced fraud? Someone deceived you in this process? Given that you can be credited with due diligence all along the way (assuming my assumptions above are correct), I would say that you have no one to blame but yourself. But I also tend to think or guess that the tracking issue you describe can be resolved. There is something missing from this story that is of key importance. Dear Syntax, You are too droll. So droll that I don't understand the true meaning of your posts on this subject, save that there are a lot of overpriced and underperforming audio products, of which I do not think the Sirius is one. |
I've never heard the Rockport, but I have heard the Walker and it was part of a system that sounded very convincing. So I have little experience with the two turntables discussed in this thread. However, I agree with Dover that Jtinn, or any representative of a competing brand, should disclose his interest when discussing or criticizing turntables in the analog forum that compete with his brand. Same for a speaker distributer or manufacturer who criticizes competing brands in speaker forums. Where is the disclaimer? It would help to put comments in perspective. |
Dear Dover: I can't see why you already made a " big deal " about who is Jtinn when you as almost all here in the thread knew who is him. It will be different if you was unaware that he is a manufacturer of TTs and suddenly some one disclose Jtinn and this was a big surprise to you. This not happen so, again, why that " big deal " to you or any one that already knows Jtinn? Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Lewm: I agree with you. In the other side M.lavigne put " things " on perspective with factors and advise when what Unoear experienced happen to fix it. The Rockport is a laboratory instrument and needs and ask for persons with the right know how to make the right set up. It is obvious that Unoear and friends that intented were inexperienced about. of course that today Unoear already learn about and this fact is good for him because now he will enjoy his Sorius. btw, I heard that Sirius tonearm three times and three times with out single trouble about tracking at any time and with three different cartridges. As you Thekong is right about. Unexperienced people were the ones that failed and not the Rockport. Other possibility could be that from the M.Lavigne place to Unoear's place somethinf was damaged on the tonearm but seems this was not happened because Unoear is enjoying it with no more " problem ". regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Well, in the end it is always the unexperienced user who has the money for an object others can't afford, but he is simply too stupid to use it properly. High End is full with such explanations (same with driving cars, playing Gold, Surfing and so on...). You always have choices, some use simple, vibrating MM Systems because they have no Phonostage which can do a decent job for cheaper MC's, some use expensive cables because only with these a huge soundstage is possible, others own 8000 records and listen maybe to 50...a Forum is always an exchange of experience, Ego, Tips, Marketing, Sales promotion, Religion, Opinion... I looked at Lavignes Systems page and wrote to a few of his visors who listened to his Rockport and asked a simple question: "Did you listen a complete Side from first to last track or only one or two?" The answers were all the same, none of them listened to a full side, the Demo was always one or two tracks and then something different was used... Made sense for me. I think, there are maybe specialists for everything in Mexico but unfortunately no one asks them. Internet can help but sometimes it can be a shot in the own foot also. The Walker is an interesting unit. Some replaced it with a old 800$ Technics Turntable and invested in Plinths and more...Audiophile rating has its own rules :-) |
Dear Syntax: Always exist stupid and ignorant people, this " privilege " belongs to everywhere including Germany. +++++ " my hope is that Unoear enjoys the Rockport completely. until a few days ago i was not aware of this mis-tracking.......... ..... at various times i did observe each one of those conditions.....although all of those were in the first few years of ownership....the learning curve. since that time there has been no problems with this issue. " +++++ that was what M.Lavigne posted. With those statements I understand and assume that after that " learning curve " his Sirius does not showed that problem. you posted: +++++++" I looked at Lavignes Systems page and wrote to a few of his visors who listened to his Rockport and asked a simple question: "Did you listen a complete Side from first to last track or only one or two?" The answers were all the same, none of them listened to a full side, the Demo was always one or two tracks and then something different was used... Made sense for me. " +++++ MADE SENSE TO ME : IMHO an explanation is in order because if not then that " sense to me " could means everything including that that Sirius was faulty and either ML already knew it and did not disclose it or he never was aware of that problem even that the mistracking existed. Unoear posted: +++++ " I have had the Sirius System lll in my room. The same Sirius that JTinn is discussing. As JTinn has told me, the Sirius, as it was setup by its previous owner, was not able to successfully navigate the inner groves. " ++++++ and he add that Tim Sheridan gives his blessing on the Unoear Sirius tonearm set up. We can assume Jtinn talked about this subject with M.Lavigne. Then IMHO some one of them is not saying the whole " true/history ". Dear gentlemans: whom of you can be precise/with no single doubt about and " disclose " this mixup?. Btw, good to know that you are an expert in that Sirius 3. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Unoear: +++++ "Other possibility could be that from the M.Lavigne place to Unoear's place somethinf was damaged on the tonearm but seems this was not happened because Unoear is enjoying it with no more " problem ". " +++++ is that true or only a misunderstood from my part? Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Maybe this will help...the Rockport is nice for visitors; it spent good quality time in my kitchen system. This turntable/arm combo is really happy with the Denon 103r cartridge that I bought for it; it looks great and hangs in there nicely...fun to help pass the time while cooking up a nice plate of pasta. When I am getting serious and wanting to spend time with the Lyra Olympos, I enjoy that this cartridge is really a nice delicious fit and enjoys riding a silver-wired Fidelity Research 66S. I am finding that this is the superior system match, especially when it is sitting atop a well-tuned big Micro Seiki machine...these synergies are known to alleviate the blues. |
Raul: You stated "Unoear posted: +++++ " I have had the Sirius System lll in my room. The same Sirius that JTinn is discussing. As JTinn has told me, the Sirius, as it was setup by its previous owner, was not able to successfully navigate the inner groves. " ++++++ and he add that Tim Sheridan gives his blessing on the Unoear Sirius tonearm set up. We can assume Jtinn talked about this subject with M.Lavigne." As I stated in my earlier post, what Unoear is saying is entirely not true and a complete lie. I never said anything of the sort. My suggestion to you is to just ignore what Unoear and Syntax post. They are not here with any good intentions. Best Regards, Jonathan |
11-18-11: Unoear I see in "Rockport Sirius III & Micro Seiki 8000 comparison" Rockport was in perfect condition. BUT in "Sirius and Walker" Rockport was not able to successfully navigate the inner groves. Obviously Giant killer come :-) |
Dear Jtinn: +++++ "Dear gentlemans: whom of you can be precise/with no single doubt about and " disclose " this mixup?. " ++++++ sorry to not re-read what you posted. Anyway, at least helped to confirm your post and for everyone now knows the real true about. Those german persons almost always posts with an agenda in hand and in this thread Unoear too. Pity and a shame of. Where belongs honesty? where some people left it? and I say this because more and more we see and read in this forum that kind of posts moved by a commercial and corrupted agenda. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
In the real world, I know that comparisons can be difficult but possible. In my opinion, with all other elements being equal in the audio chain for comparison purposes, it is the cartridge that makes the biggest sonic signature combined with the turntable and arm components resolving abilities. Let me amend that statement by saying that it is relative to the quality of both units being tested. I feel that the Rockport and Walker are of equal quality in terms of construction and designed philosophy to say this. Everything in this hobby has an audio signature no matter how good or bad it measures. There are degrees of course, and I feel that good measurement is fundamental to accuracy of recorded material but, as we all know, nothing is absolute. I know that if a cheap $80 Shure were on table 1 and a Benz LP (one of the finest I have ever heard) were on table 2; it really would not be fair, although I am convinced that both of these tables would exhibit, like the best gear, some recognizable information retrieval impressions despite it. To my ear, my decision making would have to be predicated on both cartridges being equal. Thank you all. D.H. |
