I still am using the original Tungsol 6550. The treasure just do not sound as good as the tung sols, at least in my system. once in a while i put the treasures in, but always come back to the tungsols |
I will never ever tube my VAC Phi 300 with any Psvane product again. After months of assurances from Rachel in Grant Fidelity importers that their new 'higher plate voltage tubes' would work fine for me, they blew up my amp from a lint short. And their CV-181's lasted maybe 7 months. Buyer beware.
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Hi all
I'm new to the site but wanted to comment on this thread as I am using both the shuguangs and ps vanes in my system. The system comprises of a valve cd player into a valve pre amp/headphone amp into the direct feed on a mastersound 845 intergrated amp into a pair of spendor classic sp3/2r2 speakers. inter connects are all chord indigo speaker cable is kimber and all power cords are russ andrews. Headphones are seinnheiser hd 800 and audio technica ath w-5000. I split my time about 50/50 between headphone and full system listening
As mentioned above I have been using a pair of shuguang black bottle treasure cv -181s as the power out put tubes in my Icon Audio CDX 1 cd player. My headphone/pre amp is the quad PA -One which I also re tubed with Shuguang treasure cv - 181s. I experienced much the same regarding burn in as others on this thread. I have just purchased a pair ps vane cv 181s which are in the process of burning in on the cd player at the minute. Initial thoughts on the ps vanes are they are in the same ball park sound quality wise and are displaying the same characteristics the shuguangs did whilst they were burning. Having read reviews and comments on the ps vane before purchasing them they take about 300 hundred hours before they really start to sing. I will do some serious comparisons between the two sets of valve once the ps vanes have about 300 hours on them but To be honest though at the minute I am not detecting that much of a difference which is a bit of a bummer as the ps vanes were quite a bit more expensive. Having said that it is a while since I had the treasures in the cd player so I may be looking through rose tinted glasses at just how good the treasures are. I also tend to look at the negatives with new gear (especially expensive gear) before I see the positives. So I may be doing the ps vanes a dis service
I'm not really great at expressing my thoughts in audiophile terms but I will say my system may not have gut renching bass and is perhaps not the crispist in the treble but it does have musical coherance, a extremely wide soundstage, is laid back (which how in my opinion life should be) and loves most of the music I throw at, does not cause the listener farigue and puts the biggest grin on my face everytime I power it up. I think a lot of this comes down to a combination of synergy between components and interconnects and tube rolling
On a side note has anyone had any experience with ps vane 845s. The 845s I have in the intergrated are stock Chinese valves so I would love to hear any reviews on the ps vanes (or any other 845s for that matter) as I am thinking my next upgrade will be a change of power valve. The ps vanes are really expensive so any advice on cheaper alternatives would be much appreciated
Thanks for reading
Mark |
A bit off-topic here, but if you're rolling tubes it's a good idea to re-tension your tube sockets as often as you change tubes, especially outputs, power off of course, and a squirt of De-Oxit while you're at it! I am using both PSVanes and Black Treasures 6SN7s in my pre-amp. The BTs do take a bit of break-in time whereas the the PSVs sound "broken in" right out of the box. So I put the BTs in the splitter holes and the PSVs out front for about 50 hours, then swapped them front and back and now can't tell the difference. The Chinese are on to something; my wonderful Precambrian RCAs and Sylvanias can't hold a candle to them. I just hope they live a long time. |
tzh21y ; I don't have Kt88's but I do have the Black Treasure 6CA7's . They did sound bad , good , bad etc. during the break in process . The break in took at least 200 hrs until they opened up . I don't think that you have really given your BT's a chance with just that few amount of hours . Plug them back in , put a dynamic CD on repeat and leave the house ! It may take awhile longer . Good Luck . |
Just for the record. I am back to using my tung Sol 6550 vintage tubes. Their is no comparison. |
I just turned them on again and they seem muddy sounding again. Is it because they are new? |
My 6sn7's are noisy. But once I get the music flowing, I don't notice it until I have to flip the disc. |
Wow, all of a sudden they sound great. What a difference a couple of hours makes. |
I bought a quad of kt 88z treasure tubes from grant fidelity. I am not impressed so far. They sound like old tubes. I put back kt 88s that came with the mc 275. How long do they take to break in? I will be honest,I have about 10 hours on them. |
Factories only match Ia, never consider mutual conductance (gm). The promise are crap. |
I responded to a more recent question abou the KT-88s from Psvane which are the direct competitor to the Treasure series. Both are manufactured in the Shaguang factory and look to be almost virtually the same. I too purchased a quad set of the Psvanes from Grant Audio; they talk such a good game at how they match and choose the best of the best. I have a friend who owns one of the very best tube testers ever built (name not on my tongue) but I wanted to check the quality of the Grant Audio matched quad. First off, they were not even closed to being matched! Secondly and more disheartening, two of the four didn't even test as new! They were weak. So, so much for Grant Fidelity's big claims of picking the best; my quads didn't even come close and sadly were not even matched as promised. I won't do business with them again after that. I guess all these companies assuring matched quads are not truly doing so. |
I too own a VAC Phi and replaced Kevin's stock 6SN7's with the Psvane CV-181's, the best power tube I've heard. While Kevin's stock KT88's are just fine, I wonder if the Psvane KT88's are better, coupled with their own power tubes. Any experience ?
thanks,
-john |
Well better late then never. But the Shuguang CV181-Z's grade A's just can't keep up with Mullards ECC32 gray plates. I ran the Shuguang CV181-Z's grade A's for 400+ hrs they never got any better with time. The CV181-z has less detail. The sound stage is almost as good but yet not there. If your system is on the bright side then give them a try, but if not I wouldn't go there. The test was done with a Cary Audio SLI-80 with EAT 6922 and some of the new Gold Loin KT88's
PS: I also trid some of the EAT KT88's. IMO way over rated. I sold them and keeping my Gold Loins. But I do Like the EAT 6922 they are the best I have ever heard. Like I said this is IMO. I have been using tube amps and preamps for 25 yrs now and rolling tubes. |
I tried the 12ax7 in my Mac C2300 when I had it. I thought the tube sounded very good. I actually liked it more than Tele ribbed and '50s RCA long blackplates (my favorite there). |
Look forward to hearing you thoughts on them. Still using the old Ei which are suppose to be pretty good, would be nice to try something new. |
>>01-23-11: Pubul57
What the heck is a PSVane and where do we get them?
Shuguangs's reference line of small signal tubes. Grant Fidelity carries them too<<
I just picked up a pair of 12AX7 from an alternate supplier; will fire them up next week and give a listen. |
Well I be gone for the weekend. So I won't report again untill Monday or Tuesday. The one thing I don't like is the oversize pins. Way to hard to get it in and out. I don't think it's necessary. Feels like I'm close to breaking something getting them out. My sockets are tight in my Cary Audio SLI-80 |
I've heard a few people mention that the BT CV181's swing wildly in character somewhere around 100 or so through 200 or 250 hours... Can't remember the exact spance of hours but definitely dips in character for a while. |
Well after 100 plus hours on the New CV181-z. I think they went to soft for me. They sound a little dark to my ears compared NOS Mullards ECC32 The new CV181-Z are good but to me not as good as the NOS Mullards but this is just in my system. My experience too ... yes they are good tubes, I'd put them sonically on par with a Sylvania GTB, which, at their retail or discounted eBay price, stretches the value equation. I really was hoping for a modern 6SN7 compatible tube that could give me what I hear from a late-fourties early-fifties era Ken-Rad, Sylvania, RCA, or Raytheon VT-231 or GT. Those have magic, the Shuguang CV181-Z not so much. Still I'm glad to see a tube manufacturer pay attention to sonics and I hope Shuguang or New Sensor or someone else redoubles effort for the 6SN7 grail. |
"Well after 100 plus hours on the New CV181-z. I think they went to soft for me.
With respect and admiration for all those suggesting patience, the tube will not double back after it softens from break-in. |
Well I can keep them running but I have my doubts. I have been using tube amps for going onto 25 years now. I have never seen a new tube change much at all after 125 hours. But we will see what happens.
Scott |
I just retubed my Stingray II with eight Psvane EL84s. I like them. Initially, they glared a bit; then they were a tad thick in the lows. But now, after around 60-80 hours, they've become nicely balanced and open with a warm, full midrange. While I expect them to improve further, they're notably better already than the stock Russian tubes, which were not bad themselves. |
Honest 1 - BT was my abbreviation for the black treasure tubes
as you described |
I agree with Wig, this tube will get better with further breakin hours, be patient. |
I have read that those tubes need 300+ hours to break-in, I'd give them more time and see where they stand against the Mullards. |
Well after 100 plus hours on the New CV181-z. I think they went to soft for me. They sound a little dark to my ears compared NOS Mullards ECC32 The new CV181-Z are good but to me not as good as the NOS Mullards but this is just in my system. It needed a little brighting up. In a set-up that doesn't need that the new Shuguang Treasure CV181Z my be the better tube. The soundstage turned out to the same, side to side and front to back. Both big compared to any other 6SN7 I've tried. |
What is BT? Is it a new variant of hte Treasure, or the same black glass treasure as usual? |
Well it's been 24hrs on my Shuguang CV181-Z's grade A's I'm comparing them to my NOS Mullard ECC32 CV181. My frist thoughts are the Shuguang CV181-Z's have a wider soundstage by about 2 feet. I'm not noticing any deeper soundstage yet. This my be because they are better matched. Nobody has 1000's of the Mullard ECC32 to pick from. They are a littler clearer sounding but could sand to open up yet, but it's early only 24hrs in the books. The bass my be a little tighter on the Shuguang CV181-Z's. The top end on the CV181-Z is a little edgey or bright. Cymbals don't sound brassy yet like they do on the Mullards they sound tinny. I hope this goes away with time. The hole tube top to bottom just sounds tight. They are showing good potential, but the Mullards are the better sounding tube at this piont. But it my take up to 300hrs to get the Shuguang CV181-Z's broken-in. My Mullards have about 150hrs on them. My test amp is a Cary SLI-80 Here something else I noticed the power supply on the amp is running cooler with the Shuguang even though the C181-Z are rated to draw only 50ma less then the Mullards just something think about.
Scott |
Jriggy, I have the Ayon Spirit 2 and yesterday received the BT KT88s, put them in and immediately noticed more detail, resolution and authority than what was present with the Gold Lion Reissues which I enjoyed. From my vantage point after you go through the brief amp break-in that you won't have to wait 300 hours to enjoy the music. |
I have the same question regarding the BT KT-88's... I have an Ayon Triton II(with shuguang BT's) arriving in a couple weeks and am curious if these will take the standard 300 hour break in as well. I'm asumming they would have the same basic metals and components and will take the same as the CV181's to settle in...but getting confirmation would help my break in plans. |
If runs in class A, you just need to power on and don't need to play a signal through it. On my MW Transporter, I use a cheapo rectifier tube and just leave it on. |
If I get a pair of CV181-Z, while breaking them in on my preamp, do I have to: 1) be playing music into the pre?; 2) have my amps powered on? Would hate to use up tubes in my amp just to break in these on my pre if not necessary. |
Bigredplane, from my experience and many others, BT CV181-Z takes ~300 hours to break in. Patience will be rewarded :-) |
Hi
I've been looking for someone who trid both the Old (NOS)Mullard ECC32(CV181) to the new CV181-Z. Couldn't find anyone. So I'm going to do it myself. I have some NOS ECC32 in a Cary SLI-80. I just got some Shuguang CV181-Z's grade A there best, in the mail today. I have them playing right now. I'm going to give them about ten hours before I listen. That the hard part. If anyone interested I can update with my opinion. |
Second the comments about GrantFidelity folks (especially Rachel) being great people to work with. I received first class treatment. |
OK, I guess I'm a tube addict. I bought a pair of the Ming Da 6SN7 onion-shaped tubes. I have been using them in my AtmaSphere MA1s for a couple weeks now, and I think they may be outstanding. They replaced a pair of blue glass (early prototypes before the final black glass version) Treasure tubes. They are used in a mix of Sylvania/Phillips WGTAs, RCA black glass, and TungSol 50's era tubes. I want to revisit plugging in some of the other types, but I am getting the most natural detailed yet non-aggressive sound I've ever gotten. |
Thank you, I:, getting the ruler.... |
The height of my CV181 is 3.70" from the deck of my MA1 to the top of the bottle. The tube socket is sunk flush with the deck. I do have the original blue glass style, not the production black-coated clear, but I don' t know if the glass is any differetn size. It looks like a KT88 bottle. |
What the heck is a PSVane and wheere do we get them?
Shuguangs's reference line of small signal tubes. Grant Fidelity carries them too. |
Has anyone tried the Ming Da onion-shaped 6sn7? I've not seen much information about them, but they are supposed to use materials normally used in 300B tubes, and look really cool. But they are a bit pricey, I think they are $80 each, I think they are made in the Shuguang factory. |
OK _ What the heck is a PSVane and wheere do we get them? All of us tube addicts are now on high alert there's anwe high-end tube out there we haven't tried. |
I am reclining in my listening room thoroughly enjoying The Rite of Spring due in no small measure to the Psvane 12AU7 Reference Vacuum tubes. I just recently purchased these new production tubes manufactured under tight tolerances in the Shuguang tube facility in China. The Psvanes replaced gold pin EH 12AU7s. The EHs were good sounding tubes in my heavily modified cj tube line stage. The Psvane's bring a whole new "sophistication" to all aspects of sound. Most notable is a complete lack of "glassiness" in the upper midrange and treble, a smoothness to the musical texture without any loss in detail. The soundstage is open and natural. Bass is powerful and tight. These tubes are very quiet, a characteristic missing in my trials with NOS Mullards. Yes, they were warm and "musical" but the several pairs I used were always noisy...losing their vacuum? |
Will the cv181zs fit in an Atma-sphere MP3 preamp with the cover on? Anyone try? |
I'm using a Grant Fidelity 3400 300B integrated with Shuguang Black Treasure 300B's in a secondary system driving a pair of Cain & Cain Abby's. Why is this not my primary system? Well, I'd need more gusto to drive CLS iiz's, but make no mistake if you're driving speakers that are 96dB effecient that combo would serve a normal person extremely well. GREAT TUBES those black magic Shuguangs are! |
I'm listening to a matched quad of Shuguang Treasure KT66 in Quad II Jubilee monoblocks. Right out of the box they are bold, beautiful, dimensioned, toneful and quiet. The improvement ramp on burn-in is quite steep: they were a little creamy for the first 40 minutes but by the end of the second hour they asserted their jump factor in high-definition transients. The Jubilee amps have only sounded this good with NOS Genelex KT66 in the past. Recommended.
Phil |
I have had the kt88s in my ayon spirit for a couple of months now. I aggree with Dave from Thehub. Outstanding tubes. And that is coming from Genelex Gold Lions, another excellent tube. I also have a quad of the new Genelex Gold Lion 12AU7s. They were great right ot of the box, but a little hot on top. After a few hundred hours I just couldn't be happier with the sound I am getting from this combination. Very enjoyable. |
The CV181-Z is not disappointing me in the least now that it they are fully broken in. The have replaced my TS RB 6sN7 as my new reference tube.
I need a quad for future use they are that good. |
I purchased 8 KT88's and 4 CV181Z's, all Shuguang Black Treasure grade A tubes, from Grant Fidelity about two weeks ago for my Cary 120S amp. The CV181Z's replaced the EH 6SN7 driver and input tubes. The KT88's replaced EH output tubes. I drive the 120S with a Cary SLP 03 with stock EH tubes (am awaiting TJ Full Music 12AU7's to replace the EH stock tubes). The speakers are Harbeth Compact 7 ES3's. The sound from the stock EH tubes was very nice, no complaints but as one who is always looking for a little more, I ran across a few reviews of the Treasure series tubes and decided to give them a try. I contacted Rachel at Grant Fidelity (wonderfull people to deal with) and had the above mentioned tubes about a week later. My initial impressions were "Wow, they sound pretty darn good right out of the box". They have about 95 hours on them now and continue to improve. I am at a loss for words trying to explain how much of an improvement they have made. The little Cary sounds like one of there SET amps but with a very powerfull bottom end. The music seems to flow out of a solid black background with a naturalness that has to be heard to be believed. I am learning to live wih goose-bumps all over again. I am usually a fairly skeptical person but I believe I have stumbled upon something very special. If anything changes (good or bad) I will post further thoughts. Dave |
Bought the CV181Z A brand and one tube was making a wind storm in my speaker. Vey disaponting to say the least. Shipping them back @ my cost to Canada was a PITA. To much $$$ to ship back out of my pocket because someone could not test/hear the wind storm before shipping.
So here I am waiting to hear from GF to see if they got the tubes back 7days+ or lost in shipping. I guess I will Email them......... |
