Should I buy a VPI SCOUTMASTER. I OWN 25 RECORDS.

@jeffvegas I returned to vinyl in the ’90’s. I pulled out a Dual TT which I still had from the 80’s. That was my start again. later a MMF-7, then a VPI ScoutMaster, the ScoutMaster with the better arm & silver cabling before I finally got my Teres. I liked the ScoutMaster & could easily live with the upper end VPI’s. They are good TT. So, yes, the SM is a very good place to start. And don’t forget the importance of the phono preamp. I have the JLTi which has enough stability to run the LOMC cart without loading, which is preferable. BTW, every step up the chain made an improvement
That said, there is a ritual with vinyl. You need to clean them and keep them cleaned. You handle them w/o touching the grooves...EVER!!. They return to the sleeve immediately. The stylus is to be kept clean. Keep track of the hours of play is a good idea also so you can replace the stylus when needed. The cover art was considered very important back in the day. Plus you can read liner notes. Gotta have outter sleeves & inner sleeves if you buy used. I probably missed something. Bottom line, you must love the rituals of vinyl or you won’t like vinyl for long. It’s work and expense. Digital is easy. Vinyl is work and dare I say, a love affair. If you develop the love affair, there is no limit to how good the equipment can be.

Dealer demo Rega RP10 with a Benz Micro and a used BAT PHONO PREAMP. 

What does it sound like when someone talks and no one is listening? Answer, rauliruegas. Enjoy the music

Raul
I understand where you are coming from and the meaning of your post but it comes off as a little harsh .

Every one starts somewhere and not everyone can or is prepared to dive in deep headfirst first time around.

If you shop carefully and wisely for well under $4k you can have good record replay.
Would it fit your view of excellence?
Probably not.
Might it seem excellent to the OP?
Quite possibly not truly having heard $20k worth of analog replay gear.

Sometimes we need to crawl first, then walk before we run yes?

Whoa! Hey, calm down, everybody. I get good sound, can I say great sound, for ten bucks. So cut me some slack, Jack! You can get a lot worse for a hundred grand without trying too hard.

@jeffvegas : Do you know what mediocrity/average means? look at a dictionary.

Do you know the difference between mediocrity and where excellence begin? how demanding are you?

If you already know the answers then you have a way easy decision.

I only try to help, nothing more.

R.

Thank you rauliruegas I have decided to sell off everything and not pursue the hobby. Cant get good sound unless I spend about a hundred grand. 

Dear @tooblue  : Do it you a favor and please let us know why any of those advises not belongs to mediocrity/average land.

Maybe for you no one of them because you are living in the audio mediocrity level ( I don't know. ) but if you don't then your post has no sense.

R.

Totally forgot about the stylus!!! Ok, so if I get a Hana SL how long will it last vs say a 500 dollar moving magnet?

600 hrs and your Shibata stylus is almost worn out, and i think you have no idea what you can do with it, no one never answered my question regarding Hana (How a customer can get new stylus or new cartridge from the manufacturer of Hana, what’s the cost ?)

With decent MM you can simply buy new stylus with great profile for about $300-400 and your old cartridge is new again. If your MM cartridge is something like Grace you can by different styli (different cantilevers and different diamonds). manufacturers like Pickering/Stanton made all kinds of styli even for 78rpm (or different mono profiles) and you can use all of them with one MM cartridge. When you stay with MM/MI under $700 (or cheaper) you will get much more for the money than one single MC cartridge that you don’t know how to retip and where to retip , and what will be a result of retip). Do you have an MC or SUT even to think about MC ?

For turntable, finally, look at the Technics NEW Direct Drive, check the SL1200GR or G instead of those belt-drive units.

P.S. Nagaoka MP-200 is entry level low compliance MM cartridge with elliptical profile, but at the same cost you can buy amazing vintage MM with better cantilever and better stylus profile. 

Buy a Technics SL1200 used from Japan with a Nagoaka MP-200 cartridge and a Shiits Mani phone stage, all for a lot less than that turntable on its own. Much better sound quality also.

Well the audio GOD has spoken, let us all take note. We are not worthy

Dear @jeffvegas : I don't know you but I don't like mediocrity/average audio items, digital or analog.

All the advises here for analog and what you are asking for are in the mediocrity land, belongs to this territory.

In the digital domain the advises are in the mediocrity level too as that Benchmark.

If you like the mediocrity then go for what ever you think you need.

If you don't like and don't want stay in that mediocrity then you need to make a wise decision. In the analog alternative you need a phono cartridge in the 3K-5k   price range and only for the cartridge. You need that cartridge along a TT, a tonearm ( not unipivot, no matters what. ) and a first rate phono stage and you can't do it for less than 10K.

In the digital alternative you can go out of the mediocrity starting at your budget of 4K and up for the DAC.

Everything can " sounds " but not everything can sounds out of the mediocrity. Is up to you not the other gentlemans ( including me. ) in this thread.

R.

I am so pumped up about VINYL!!! I am driven to do this!!! It's the old VPI SCOUTMASTER  VS REGA RP8. Which one would you goners get?

One more thing ...  

As for old records vs. new … just go for it! There are no rules. Some remasters sound better than the originals, some do not. The sport is in the listening. I have thousands of LP’s, some sixty-year-old originals (the first record I ever bought brand new is now 58 years old!), some remasters and some new releases. If have not found the sound quality of these to be a function of their age, but rather of their pedigree.

There is one category in which vinyl has a monopoly, direct-to-disc. The best of these are simply stupendous and cannot be equaled by any digital means. Look for titles from M&K, Sheffield Lab and Chasing The Dragon.

As for remasters, I must give homage to one man who should be canonized for his amazing contributions to lovers of music, Chad Kassem.  He has been remastering albums of many genres with an attention to detail and commitment to quality that in most cases surpasses the original by a wide margin. I have many hundred of his remasters, mostly on the Classic Records and Analogue Productions labels. The worst of them is fully equal to its original and most are far better. Do yourself a favor and buy them all (I’m still working on it!) Or buy them from him in person at AXPONA (he is Acoustic Sounds) in April and tell him Dave sent you.

Another source of inspiration, who should be canonized as well, is Michael Fremer. Check out his blog Analog Planet, sponsored by Stereophile magazine, for inspiring reviews of both technology and recordings

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff ... go big or go home! Audiophilia is not about rationality, it is about passion for the music and the joy of conjuring that emotion from your own equipment, built by people whose work is to distill their own passion into their products. People like Harry Weisfeld and his family.

Buy the VPI and stick with the Memorial arm. VPI unipivot is excellent. I have one on my Classic 3 and would not trade it for a gimballed arm. (I would like to try the new 3D printed arm, however!)

Buy the best cartridge you can afford. It should match the tone arm. Lyra and Dynavector are good choices, but so are many others. I have a Dynavector TKR and love it. Very balanced, very dynamic. But as with any low output MC, be sure to get a phono stage with enough gain. Your preamp will do fine for now.

Vinyl records provide joy beyond the music. There is tactile satisfaction and the zen of ceremony in playing them. As others have stated, a record in pristine condition will have no discernible background noise and very few tics and pops. If you collect old classics that may be scratched or otherwise abused, buy a Sugar Cube and they will sound as clean as a CD. An occasional tic or pop from static electricity is no more annoying than the sound of a zipper at a rock concert.

Totally forgot about the stylus!!! Ok, so if I get a Hana SL how long will it last vs say a 500 dollar moving magnet? 

One disadvantage of MM is that stylus assemblies tend to have a rather loose mating with their cartridge housings. Any slight bit of tolerance there will result in some amount of signal distortion vs the fixed assemblies of an MC. Further, MCs have the well-known advantage of a lower moving mass - similar to the advantage of Soundsmiths MI carts. Lower moving mass is a big advantage according to PL of SS, and it applies to MCs as well as MIs.

@helomech Most of the well designed MM/MI have a stylus assembly that screwed to the cartridge body (ADC TRX, Sony XL-50, Technics P100 and P205 series ... ), but even without that screw pulling a stylus away from a Grado cartridge is a challenge, did you ever tried ?

Some of the best MM cartridge have extremely low moving mass too, read about Audio-Technica AT-ML180 OCC or Technics P100c mk4 just to name a few with the lowest possible moving mass.

MC cartridge replacement is typically about 80% cost of new. I don’t consider it very inconvenient. It’s simply a a matter of mailing the old cart to the dealer and receiving a brand-new one in return.

I do. It’s not that simple if your LOMC cartridge cost $4500 and to replace it (when the stylus is worn) you will have to pay 60% of the new cart again. It not always 80%, but even 60% from $4500 is $2700 ! In the MC world even $4500 is not the highest price and i had those cartridges before (never again).

That’s where Excel stepped in and changed the game with their relatively affordable Hana series.

The Excel stepped into the game in the 70’s with wide range of cartridges, they made cartridges for others like SAEC and Argent long time ago. WHy do you think their new design is any better ? Here is my thread about earlier Excel Sound work for American brand Argent in the 80’s

Oops, my mistake.
But then it’s just like my argument how inconvenient the MC cartridges really are. Does that mean a Hana charge 80% of retail to rebuild or completely change their cart officially via distributors ?

Yes, MC cartridge replacement is typically about 80% cost of new. I don’t consider it very inconvenient. It’s simply a a matter of mailing the old cart to the dealer and receiving a brand-new one in return. That’s how most MC cart exchanges are handled these days. It’s not like Soundsmith, where you have to wait for them to retip your original cartridge, though that’s probably still the case with some esoteric carts like some of the Koetsus.

So the only real advantages of MM are that you can order a replacement stylus and not have to be without a cart for a few days. That and you don’t necessarily have to realign it each time (though often times realignment is necessary as no two stylus/cantilever assemblies are truly identical).

One disadvantage of MM is that stylus assemblies tend to have a rather loose mating with their cartridge housings. Any slight bit of tolerance there will result in some amount of signal distortion vs the fixed assemblies of an MC. Further, MCs have the well-known advantage of a lower moving mass - similar to the advantage of Soundsmiths MI carts. Lower moving mass is a big advantage according to PL of SS, and it applies to MCs as well as MIs.

The problem with MCs in terms of cost is that most examples under $500 U.S. are inferior sounding to a good MM. People try a $350 MC from Denon or Ortofon, realize it’s crap, then swear off MCs all together. Typically, MCs under $1K don’t sound all that good. That’s where Excel stepped in and changed the game with their relatively affordable Hana series. I’ve had some quite respectable MMs with Microline and SAS diamonds. They’re good and I could live with them if I had to, but a Hana SL or ML are indeed in another league if setup correctly and mated with a decent phono stage. That said, one of the salesmen at my local hifi shop traded his Clearaudio Maestro V2 (Micro HD stylus/ boron cantilever) for the $450 Hana EL and didn’t look back. I was surprised by this but the guy is pretty well versed with all things analog.

It’s a chicken or egg scenario.  Do you build up a record collection and the buy a good table, or buy a good table and then build up your record collection?  

If you have 25 albums if it were me I wouldn't spend thousands on hardware not even knowing if I wanted to pursue it.  Just common sense I think.
Just get a decent phono stage if you don't  have one, an entry level turntable made by a reputable manufacturer,  spin clean washing system (I know its a manual set up but it really works).
For phono stages I like the musical fidelity entry level preamps they have plenty of gain and you don't have to fiddle with them a lot.
If you decide you like it then reinvest later once you know what you are getting into.

Well looks like vinyl lost another one, good more albums for me to play on my far inferior VPI unipivot arms.  Yea

From all this fodder and nonsense, if anything realize this.... opinions are biased so find your own bias. You can't be wrong with what's right for you, but can always be wrong when you preach what's right for everyone else. Avoid generalized statements like the narrow minded ones on unipivot arms, as there are always exceptions to the rules and or the opinions of others. Some prefer an SME arm others a Graham unipivot. Nobodies wrong if they like what they have. They become daft and wrong when they don't like what you have and constantly remind you ad nauseum why thier choice would be better for you. If a dealer knocked everyone else's product and praised only his own lines, would his word really be in arguably always correct, yet alone trusted as a fits all no exceptions end .......
Listen and go with your ears and your gut on sound and comfort of price and use....4U
Enjoy....we're only here for one trip....

Yes.  Absolutely.  Great sound and the joy of collection new and old albums.  Nothing I like better than spending $8 on ebay or discogs for a near perfect 40 0r 50 year old LP.  

I started seven years ago with a Basis 2500 table and a Dynavector MC cartridge.  It sounded so much richer than my  Esoteric X-03se I have virtually not played digital at home since.

You are approaching this the right way.

Dear jeffvegas,

The decision to where to invest/spend your $$$ is a very personal one - its what's makes you happy - how do you define you destination or your journey.

Digital music has matured to a music presentation all its own.  There is little value in investing in a CD player - the best CD lasers like the swing-arm Phillips CDM4/Pro with German glass optics and 50,000-hr life are history.  Better to burn CDs to FLAC or WAV and use a fanless laptop as a music player with free music player software such as MediaMonkey.

The current future (and as digital it is always subject to change), of digital music is streaming with the current business model of subscription service - how many streaming services will survive is debatable since I believe that many are not yet profitable, but something will survive.  But, consider that if a Hi-Rez music file can be transmitted from a remote physical storage facility (i.e. server center) through 100’s if not 1,000’s of miles of combined fiberoptic and copper cable, through connectors, repeaters, amplifiers; maybe a fiberoptic to copper converter at your home to a router all using 1,000’s if not 10,000’s of circuits, processing by 10,000’s if not 100,000’s of lines of computer operating/BIOS/firmware code, and emerge at your home server bit-perfect be it a lap top or dedicated server, the whole argument of home hardware evaporates, leaving nothing more than the DAC. With the Benchmark DCA-3 (as an example - $1700 for DAC only) essentially being engineering perfection (with I believe a 5-yr warranty) its is plug and play; one and done.  You cannot argue the life-cycle cost of digital music streaming.

Vinyl is anything but plug and play; one and done; it is not about convenience.  It is journey with every step yield personal satisfaction and some frustration, all to get that uniquely analog music experience and presentation that no doubt there is the pride and the allegiance that one achieves from putting in the effort to get it right.  There is a lot to learn and a lot to explore, and if you buy smart - there is a pretty clear upgrade path.  If you buy the VPI Scoutmaster, first VPI still supports it, if you need a new arm pivot or a new motor they have it.  There is an upgrade path to the heavier aluminum platter, different feet, the JMW-10.5 arm and base, the dual-pivot, and each one will improve incrementally the music which then drives you back to re-listening to all your vinyl albums, again and again.  If you were to buy the Soundsmith Carmen MKII cartridge that is on-sale at Elusive Disk for $699 - this is an awesome cartridge for the money, easy to drive, quiet and they will rebuild it for $199.  So, your cartridge life cycle cost is $199/1000-hrs.

Now, if you add up what I just discussed - DAC (Benchmark - new) $1700, Turntable/arm (VPI used) - $1500, Cartridge (Soundsmith Carmen - new) - $699, total cost = $3900, add $100 for turntable incidentals = $4000, right on budget with a 5 year plan for possible turntable upgrades.

Just one opinion, but I gave up on investing in digital and invested in vinyl for the very reasons just stated.  Its your journey and its your experiment, make it your own.

R/Neil

Dear @jeffvegas :  I'm a music lover and an audiophile and own 6K+ LPs.

From some latest years digital alternative already outperforms the best and high prices analog alternative, no matters what analog ( LP. ) is no challenge for digital that every " day " is growing up with better digital technology when analog stop to develops up-grades because it's from years at its limits.

Do it you a favor and invest those 4K in the best DAC you can find out and you will never turn your face back to analog. Analog is only for the ones that as me own thousands of LPs but certainly not for you. Enjoy the MUSIC with a better DAC. Period.

Btw, if it's true that an unipivot tonearm can has lower bearing friction it's true that to carry the cartridge ride in the grooves modulations is the worst kind of tonearm bearing due to unstability. Cartridges needs dead stability in the tonearm bearing with low friction and all gimball type of tonearms due that job way better that any unipivot and does not matters the price of that unipivot.

As I said do it your self a favor and invest in today and future MUSIC enjoyment through the digital alternative.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Listen. Just buy the VPI. I bought a lesser model for more, and am happy. The unipivots have a learning curve, for sure, but the curve applies to any arm in the future, so good education there. 
No, wait....send me the info on this table so I can buy it. 
Seriously,  upgrade your cartridge first. Transducers make the most difference in any system. I strongly recommend SoundSmith. I had crackling in my system. Thought I damaged my Zephyr MIMC. Peter Lederman called me on a Sunday! to discuss my problem! Turns out it was too much gain from my phono pre. All good. 
Understand that with a great cartridge,  most ticks and pops ride under the music, not inside it. 
I still listen to digital, streaming my own ripped CDs and from Qobuz. I get restless after a few minutes.  I put on an LP, and am content.

You have the same table I have.  The Carbon Debut, wasn't happy with the setup.  Tried cleaning the records with a cheap cleaner, under $100.  Was tired of all the static and pops.  Upgraded to a VPI classic 2 with a  Ortofon Quintet Black $3800.  Was not happy with the sound thru an old NAD stereo receiver.  Upgraded to a Parasound Pre and Jolida Phono preamp.  Have not changed a thing except for speakers, but that is a different subject.  The reason I went with VPI is the classic is built like a tank, not much to go wrong with it.  Wait for an online closeout or buy used.  Enjoy your 25 albums and stream new music to find something you like, then buy it on Vinyl.  Buy Mo-Fi albums and return the ones that sound bad.  Invest in a new cleaning machine and your set, til you want to upgrade something.  Enjoy, life is too short.

Project will do the trick instead of spending 3 grand.

Project is very bad belt-drive turntable, it's really the lowest quality even compared to some other belt drives, but if you will upgrade the cartridge even this turntable will give you more. 

Why don't you just look for Direct Drive instead of Belt Drive ?

 Worried though about the future of record production with that record plant that was destroyed by fire in Cali.

They made lacquers. You have many pressing plants in USA and there are many in Europe too. But more important: we have billions of vintage vinyl available in the stores for entire life. 

@helomec

 I stated, "with exception of Soundsmith carts." Learn how to read.

Oops, my mistake. 
But then it's just like my argument how inconvenient the MC cartridges really are. Does that mean a Hana charge 80% of retail to rebuild or completely change their cart officially via distributors ?  

Porsche, there is no substitute.  

Ferrari "better" than a Porsche?

No.

Heh. I should have left it at the guitars. 

 Yeah, just saw Music Direct advertising REGA RP8 FOR 2 GRAND!!! Just read about this table. Wow!!! Haven't heard it but everyone raves about it. This might be it!!!!

Fairly certain my VPI dealer would tell you the Scoutmaster is one of the best tables they've ever made short of an Aries or HRX. Personally, I'd take a Scoutmaster over the AS Primus. Its AS equivalent would probably be closer to the Wow XL or Triple X. 

I do like the Rega sound though. I wouldn't be afraid to buy one from Music Direct because any quality issues are likely to come up within the first 60 days of ownership anyway. That's true of most gear IME.

How much is vinyl where you live!!
😲😲

I have kicked VPI to the curb unless someone on here gives me a compelling reason to grab this SCOUTMASTER with JMW VALHALLA UNIPIVOT ARM for 1500 bucks without a cartridge.  The Acosutic signature primus at 2300 bucks comes with a bad cartridge but I can upgrade it in time. The REGA RP8 for 2 grand is a contender now but didnt know they used foam in the plinth. That may be a big issue. Once I get a setup I can just see myself immediately running to the record store and dropping 2 grand on new vinyl.  Oh wait, that will only buy me 50 records. Lol

Ferrari "better" than a Porsche?

No.

I was waiting for that.....
Lol.

Ferrari "better" than a Porsche?

No.

Everyone here has poisoned me on VPI. Guess they suck. Now I am looking at a new Acoustic Signature primus or a Rega RP8. Any thoughts on those tables?

FWIW, my local dealer loves the old variations of the VPI Scout with unipivot arm. He's still a VPI dealer but readily admits the new models are not nearly as good as previous generations. He especially despises the 3D ("plastic" in his words) arms. 
 
He also sells TOTL SME tables. The main rig in his listening room is a 30/2 but he says he's still impressed with the value of the original Scouts. I'm sure he'd probably take one over a new Prime. 

Acoustic Signature makes nice tables. I have a Wow XL and it handily outclassed a VPI Classic 1 in my system. I'd wager anything AS makes will outperform a VPI of the same price.

The RP8 is a smoking deal at $1999, in theory, but some users have reported warping of the foam plinths, same for the P6. If not for this concern, an RP8 should be a top contender.

Another table you should consider is the Gem Dandy Polytable Super12. George Merrill is an excellent engineer and he made many smart choices when designing that table. 

With exception of Soundsmith carts, the typical replacement stylus for an MM/MI cart is 80% the cost of the cartridge.

@helomech just check Peter's interview and he said at 17:00 here SoundSmith cartridges will be rebuild ONLY for 20% of the cost (not 80% as you said).

I stated, "with exception of Soundsmith carts." 

Learn how to read.

"VPI sucks" is silly and false, and doesn’t come out of any of the comments that I can see except for maybe one post that is short on data and substance. if you want to get good advice from internet forums you need to grasp the underlying principles involved. for instance, the VPI Classic and Rega RP8 are very different beasts based on different design principles, each with their own pros and cons. there’s no simple "this one is better." is a Stratocaster "better" than a Les Paul? a Ferrari "better" than a Porsche? Depends on who you are and what you want.

Judging from your responses I’m beginning to think you may, in fact, be better off ditching analog. if you do want to stick with a turntable an older used VPI might be a good choice - the original Aries has a very good reputation (can’t be made today at anywhere near its old price point) and there’s one on sale here on a’gon right now though probably above your budget. FWIW I have a modded Aries 1 and a modded Rega Planar II and there’s no comparison between them. The Rega is great for my ’second system’, the VPI is good enough that I don’t know how to replace it without spending megabucks.

Rega P8 is getting great reviews from users and the write ups.

Unless you can go to a dealer and listen to setups, you will go round and round reading everyone’s opinion, bias, comments on others post etc.
Research the brands, open your wallet as much as you can, and take the plunge. Don’t like what you’re hearing,get rid of it, hopefully without too much of a loss.

@rwortman what if you had 25 records but almost exclusively listened to music that analog recorded?

so, you don’t already have an extensive collection but most of what you want to listen to is pre-1990...

VPI do not suck. Did anyone say that? For sure not me. What I said was get off the merry go round. Not change horses. Get off.

Everyone here has poisoned me on VPI. Guess they suck. Now I am looking at a new Acoustic Signature primus or a Rega RP8. Any thoughts on those tables?

From having owned, upgraded, modded and ultimately built my own tablehttps://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 my take on it is this. A turntable is really, really simple and easy to make. You take a board, stick a bearing in it, put a disk on the bearing, spin it somehow with a motor, and you got a turntable. There really is nothing more to it. Everything from there on is simply a matter of doing each one of those four things increasingly better little by little. 

The reason things are the way they are is due to a confluence of factors. The first one being its really, really easy to make any turntable better. Any. With most its as easy as adding a little mass or damping to the plinth or platter. Or if not that then adding a cone or shelf under it. Everyone knows this. Hardly anyone seems to understand the implications.

All a manufacturer has to do is make the same damn thing only thicker and wala, it sounds better. Could literally put the same damn motor in a heavier pod with better feet and presto change-o a new model is born. The two most common materials are acrylic and aluminum. Next comes acrylic and aluminum laminated together. Next would be more and more layers of acrylic and aluminum laminated together. No I am not writing what I see on the VPI model page, that's just the way it works which I know having built the damn things myself! I'm sure its a total coincidence that all the VPI tables right up to their flagship model is more and more layers of acrylic and aluminum. 

What's that? Oh yeah. And color. Cool colors and shapes distract from the reality its just more and more of the same old same old.

Second big factor, tablejockey nailed it, you get 20 lined up and compare. Yeah. And then go for a victory lap on your unicorn. Can we get a show of hands, how many have had even 2 tables lined up to compare? Tables. Hello? Not "tables" by which you mean different table, arm and cart. Tables. Two tables with the same arm and cartridge. Anybody? Beuller?? 

Right. So never happens. What happens instead is people have a VPI. And not to pick on VPI, could be Basis, Project, whatever. All the same far as I'm concerned. VPI happens to be the worst, but not worst in the sense of worst tables just worst in the sense of greatest offender in the lots of tiny little stairstep upgrade models.

So you have your VPI and you find it impossible to truly compare side by side with anything. So you take the safe bet and upgrade to a better VPI. Lo and behold! Its better! Well of course it is! VPI is greedy and cynical, just not stupid. For damn sure every model is better than the cheaper one below it. Because that is the one thing their customers are gonna know, how the old one they had compared to the new one. So that's all they have to do to keep the customer satisfied. And understanding the first factor now maybe you can see how silly easy this is to do. 

This is why I always tell people, if you want to make your first table a package, fine. Go for it. Might be the smart move. I don't think so. But depends on the buyer, and below a certain threshold is the only option anyway. 

But everything from that point on should be focused on the individual components. If you buy a table, buy a table. Run your current arm on it, or buy a good arm. Or buy an arm and upgrade the one on your current table. Whatever you do though do not just upgrade to another model up the line. Get off that merry go round.

"I have a project debut carbon with a grado cartridge. It sucks. Lots of background noise. Dull, lifeless, muddy sound."

That's not the way that deck should sound if properly set up and mated with a compatible cartridge phono preamp.

Something is wrong and you are not getting the best of it.

DeKay

Huh, looks like this thread may not be fake? I got the vibe it is.

Yeah, VPI turntables are everything negative the "experts" say in this thread and more. Terrible design all around.


How many happy owners are there? And VPI has survived how long? Certainly not a perfect company, but most audio companies aren’t.
If they are truly garbage, a long term user base would not exist.


There isn’t an ideal table in any price point. There are choices in all price point, and the best of that bunch is subjective.

Disclosure:I’m using an ancient Classic. A VPI in a proper setup supported by the rest of the system, is good as anything else in the wacky world of audio.

You need to have 20 turntables lined up, side by side. Play your favorite record on all of them one after one then, you can determine what’s the best. And for heavens sake, don’t include a VPI,uni pivot design among them. SMH
I personally, would get a used VPI, if I were in the market for another table.Lots of deals to be had.


The unipivot design just takes getting used to.

SMH

I love my Scoutmaster and Prime even with there unipivot arms. They can be a little difficult to set up at first but get a lot easier after a couple cartridge changes. I haven’t had any problems so far, knock on wood, and the bearings show no sign of wear on either table. You do have to be careful with the male pivot because it is very sharp and could be bent if you dropped the arm wand down on it with to much force. I only have experience with the VPI since the last turntable I had was around 25yrs ago, a Mitsubishi Lt22 or something with a Stanton 681eee I think? There’s a lot of choices out there and I think going used is going to get you the most bang for your buck. I wouldn’t rule out VPI completely because I think there’s a lot of customers out there that have had a positive experience with them. In any case I definitely recommend investing more in the table than the dac which is just my opinion from doing it backwards and starting with the digital front end first.

Buy without cartridge, ortofon Red is nothing special, you can buy cartridge yourself, a good one, not what you will get for free with the table

Not really familiar with that Acoustic Signature model but if you can get for close to a grand is possibly a better bet than the VPI simply due to the arm.
Considering it's a 2k table new and it's the entry level model for Acoustic Signature it may very well be a good buy at that price. Try it with the Red cart if you buy, you may well like it as is.