The "proper" sub frequency point should depend on the main speaker's low frequency capability and careful listening...if I set the REL too high up into the main speaker territory it gets muddy, untoward, unseemly, tawdry, flabby, unfocused, unrealistic, overbearing, and innacurrate, thus harshing my mellow. |
Oh. If you do get a sub or two: find drag racing on tv, turn stereo up as high as courage allows, listen to them launch.
It is really cool the first time. |
"Oh. If you do get a sub or two: find drag racing on tv, turn stereo up as high as courage allows, listen to them launch.
It is really cool the first time."
LOL!!! |
Integrating a sub into a two channel system is difficult, but does not have to be. I use a Velodyne SMS-1 equalizer with my system and have great success playing all types of music. I do not have bass boom, droning, or one bass notes that some people are experiencing. It takes a lot of time and effort to get the correct volume, phase, and EQ set properly to listen without having to adjust any settings. Regarding having enough bass, someone is asking for a sub to go with a pair of Wilson Audio Maxx III's in anoher forum. Once you do have a sub setup properly, you can always turn up the bass volume for parties, jamming out, and other reasons to play loud.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
So...I am auditioning an old REL Q150E over the weekend. It's and interesting process if I don't get to manic about it. Lots of knob twisting and changing of music. I'm honestly not sure I like what I hear all of the time. It seems I keep lowering the sub volume and the crossover frequency. Pretty soon I may have eliminated the sub altogether!
It's a side-firing speaker and I found it to sound very directional in spite of what everyone says. I turned it backwards in the corner and that made a huge difference--night and day, really.
More later. Thanks to everyone who has offered their two cents worth. |
Tostado,
Audioquest provides an excellent idea. The Velo SMS-1 sub controller will help you get the set up right. It's a 180 degree difference from set-up by ear.
The cost is +/- $400, in-home money back trial period. If you decide against a sub - return the SMS-1. IME, it's a mistake to try to judge your subwoofer set up 'til you've used a tool like the SMS-1.
Marty |
I'm sure the Velo electronic setup is great, but it's a bit of a budget-buster for me.
I've spent parts of three days listening and tweaking and am happy enough with it that I decided to take the plunge and buy the REL. I'm sure I'll continue to make adjustments hear and there, but overall it's been educational and fun, if perplexing at times. Bottom line is, it's a significant overall improvement and I'm a born-again audio freak. I'm digging up a lot of material I haven't heard in ages, and it's never sounded so good. Maybe I'll upgrade the CD player down the line, but for now this is really satisfying. |
Yes. If you can flip it for minimal loss, why not?. I was very happy with my aerial 7b's but decided to try a sub to get a bit more bottom end. below 50 is all I wanted bumped up a notch.
Went with a dd12 and took the time to set it up right (many hours). Ended up running full range to the 7b's and cut off the dd12's at 48. Have the volume set at only 14, on a scale of 99. Like I said.....just a tiny bump up, but it yielded incredible improvement imho. The aerials are still doing their full range thing with the dd12 offering a tiny kick way down low. was really surprised by how much I liked the addition. The key of course is the set-up part.
Don't be scared =)........give it a go man!
Cheers |
Yes, do bother. Just don't get crazy with the volume. You don't want to know it's there when on, but miss it when it is off. And don't be afraid to move it around the room a bit for optimal sound. |
Tostado,
If you happen to be an unethical lout:
You can order the SMS. Skip the EQ section and x-over section. Just use the RTA. Move the sub until you get the best results on the video readout and you will be very close to optimal placement. Trying to do the same thing by ear is -IME- both much more time consuming and much less reliable. You can then return the SMS.
I am not suggesting that a highly principled fellow like you would ever do such an unethical thing - merely observing (purely theoretically) that you could.
OTOH, if you tried that, you might end up exploring the x-over and EQ functions (IME, hard to live without once you've tried 'em)and decide to keep the thing, which might morally justify the whole evil plan.
Good Luck,
Marty |
Yeah, Marty, I did think about that. Trying to be better in my old age!
And, I trust my ears-- as a musician and teacher I've relied on them. I've done multitrack mixing, live mixing and things which make me focus on various aspects of sound and listening that most folks (outside a forum like this) probably never think about.
I have (so far) wound up with a frighteningly low volume setting on the Q150E (so low that some would say "why bother") and I'm kicking it in around the frequency where the Dynaudios supposedly kick out. The biggest problem right now is dragging myself out of that room so I can get other things done. I am really pleased with the sound. Wife is away for a couple of weeks, so now is the time to really take it in. |
I also run my REL Q150E relatively (but appropriately) pretty low...and as an older (but still amazingly handsome) musician/soundman I also have "experience specific" tastes in this stuff (unlike the "teeming masses/great unwashed" non musicians who have irrelevant tastes...heh heh). I do adjust the level sometimes but only in tiny increments. I suggest 3 things: An angled Neutrik plug (hard to find but cool) and an angled IEC cable (Audioquest sells an IEC angled adaptor) in case you want to put the control panel side back against a wall (I do this), and a "chicken head" knob for the level pot in case it IS backed against a wall...you can adjust the level and more readily tell where the knob is set. |
Tostado,
IME, the problem with set-up by ear is that you're trying to optimize for 3 major variables at once (and a few minor ones, too). Smoothest response will vary with room position, as will the native output level from the sub (as reinforcing or destructive room interactions have their way with the low hz output). The placement with the smoothest response will likely require a different level setting on your sub than the placement with the second smoothest response. Finally, the x-over frequency (and slope, if applicable to your set-up) must be optimized for the particular placement you've chosen. As above, likely to differ (unpredictably) between best, next best, etc. And you've got to pick the best compromise....
I'm sure you're better equipped for the task than I am, but it's an awful lot to ask of anyone to optimize that equation by ear.
Good Luck (and kudos on the self-improvement project, too).
Marty |
Wolf, I tried the sub facing towards me and it did not sound good, so I don't think I'll have the controls against the wall (unless I move to another house, and even then, who knows...)
Marty, you're probably right, but once again, the expense.
Clarification--I didn't mean to imply that I'm uniquely qualified to do this by ear. I imagine most of the folks on the forum have spent a lot of time squinting their ears to sound and music. I think most of the folks here would do a good job of setting up by ear, given enough time. I tried to make that point, briefly, before. |
Hmm, wish I found this thread earlier.
I have the same Dyns. Yes, they can benefit from a sub with some kinds of music in particular. But the Dyns can sound lovely with bass down below 50 hz or so by themselves, so it is a tough call.
I do not use a sub with them because I have other speakers that do full range quite well.
If I did not, I might consider a sub, but only a larger very good one capable of going down to 20 hz or so with aplomb in order to really add clear value.
I would try to cross over at 50 hertz or above I believe.
I have used my Dyns with an older M&K sub with good results but that was in my second system where the speakers are stored way up high inside a cabinet and bass performance is way down compared to proper setup as a result. |
Aplomb! Has anybody named an adjustment knob "aplomb" yet? That is also a great name for an audio company or product.
I have this little corner thing going on that reinforces the REL amazingly. My system is tweeked (for "active" listening anyway) to my listening spot only, as standing waves and other bass reinforcement elsewhere in the room go bananas, as well they should. |
Tostado,
I understand the finances.
That said, I do want to make it clear that I wasn't being sarcastic in acknowledging that your extensive musical training better equips you for the task I was describing. I've become much more attuned (pardon the pun) to pitch subtleties since I started studying guitar a few years back. However, I was trying to point out the difficulty inherent there for anyone undertaking the job.
Suffice it to say that - should you ever have the opportunity to add RTA and /or x-over flexibility and/or DRC down the road - you will likely be surprised at just how much improvement you'll get out of your existing sub/speakers.
Good Luck
Marty |
Interesting that JL Audio is not mentioned in this thread. The OP went with REL and is happy, congrats. No doubt REL produces a fine sub, but for anyone else considering (Mapman?) adding a sub to a fine pair of monitors: (1) absolutly do it, for all the reasons mentioned above (particularly Teajay and Grannyrig), and (2) audition JL Audio. I recently added an F112 and the expansion of air/soundstage/tone is amazing. It transformed the entire sonic spectrum by enveloping it in an expansive, yet tight and tuneful foundation. Get it dialed in right, set it, forget it, and enjoy it. |
JL has limited hookup options, especially compared to the Rel's. JL's are great subs, but you really need a certain set up to use them. Also, they do not allow for mulitple input signals as the Rel does. If you have Rel's you can put your LFE signal into one input from your HT processor, and the Speakeron connection from a dedicated 2 channel preamp, and it will work with both signals, the JL will not do that. |
Also, the F112 mentioned costs far more than my mid-fi budget allows. I paid 425 + tax for the used REL. |
It isn't very likely that your listening position is actually the optimal spot for all sound wavelengths, meaning that you are probably sacrificing sound quality in some frequency range no matter where you're sitting. In many rooms one could find the sweet spot for optimal sound stage and dispersion, but that spot be less than optimal for the longer bass wavelengths. With a sub you have the luxury of obtaining the correct placement for both creation of sound stage and full bass wavelengths. The best of both worlds. |
I too am a huge REL fan. Teajay said it correctly in the first post. I bought a Stadium 2 almost 15 years ago and have found it had dramatic improvements in every single pair of speakers I have ever used it with including:
Martin Logan Aerius i's, Audio Physic Tempo 3's,Silverline Sonata 2's, Apogeee Mini Grands, and currently with my Apogee Duetta Signatures.
It is simply the best single component in my system and adds so much improvement I will never listen without its obvious benefits always included. Follow the above advice: crossover pretty low, gain pretty low. I truly can't imagine any speaker not gaining some improvement using a properly integrated sub like a REL, into their room.
I would almost label it "REQUIRED" to get the best out of your system...it's THAT much of an improvement.
Happy Lissn'n |
A good subwoofer not only gives you better bass but will increase the size of your soundstage. I could see a major improvement with your speakers and a quality subwoofer. Good luck. |
