Should I add a DDC?

Thanks @dz13 as both are DENAFRIPS they are compatible. Just have to find the right combo. That’s the only thing I’m concerned about. But there is a video from Alvin at Vinshine and he sent it to me detailing how to find the right combo.

@jastralfu Thank you. Ya I have never had my pc/laptop connected to my system. That’s why I was hoping the test tones wouldn’t be necessary…

One caveat that I am just learning about is i2s incompatibility. Make sure that your DDC's i2s is compatible with the DAC's i2s when you have different brands. One good thing about the Hermes is the ability to adjust the hdmi setting.   

I don’t know about streaming the test tones.  The link I posted earlier will download a zip file so likely you will need a computer hooked up to your ddc to play them.  If you have a Mac then it’s easy just connect your Mac via USB.  If you have a windows machine you’ll need the USB driver for the Denafrips but you can get that from the Denafrips website.  This link I believe is what you need for the windows drivers

https://www.denafrips.com/download-thesycon

Thanks All, very helpful! Thank you again @jastralfu I was going to ask where can I get the test tones? I'd have to play them through my streamer, correct? I will have Eversolo to Hermes via USB then HDMI from Hermes to Pontus. Where can I get the test tones to play through my streamer/Qobuz?

Since the addition of Denafrips Gaia, Musetec MH-DA006 dac, Tubulus Ximius I2S and new power cables have been recent additions I've been waiting for system to stabilize (over 300 hours burn in) and for me to acclimate to particular sound qualities of all this new equipment. So, in evaluations of syncing to external clock (Gaia) vs using internal dac clock it has become patently clear a limitation of this dac, and perhaps most if not all dacs is the I2S internal clock. When you look at the OXCO clock in Gaia and Hermes you'll find a rather intensive power supply for that OXCO clock, even if a dac implemented an OXCO clock doubtful they'd find enough real estate for it. On top of that, most dacs devote a fair amount of space to usb boards, space I'd think better used for I2S clock power supply.

The implications for sound quality are easily hear using Gaia clock vs Musetec clock in that using Gaia clock sound staging greatly enlarged and images far more dimensional, greater density, Sense of reach out and touch performers vs the relatively flat presentation of internal clock.

Beyond this, in my evaluations of optimized usb vs optimized I2S, I2S easily surpassed usb, and maintains this superiority even when bypassing Gaia clock.  From this I surmise I2S alone (without using ddc clock) is superior to usb, this points to inherent I2S superiority via it's dedicated data and clock runs, and the elimination of detour through a usb board (I2S is native signal path in dacs). the better clock in Gaia is added major benefit. Based on this reasoning I'll extrapolate a quality implemented OXCO clock in a ddc using I2S interface should outperform any dac's usb implementation and/or likely inferior I2S internal clock.

The value of a DDC is much more than just converting to I2S. It does several things depending on the product, since I have a Denafrips DDC I'll speak there.

Convert the input signal to I2S (used internally in DACs/streamers/etc), galvanically and optically isolates the signal to eliminate noise and jitter, re-clocks the signal using the DDCs crystal oscillator.

Prior to the 15th versions, the Denafrips Ares and Pontus DACs use high quality FEMTO clocks, the Venus used a TXCO (temperature compensated crystal oscillator), and the Terminator II and Terminator Plus used OCXO (oven controlled crystal oscillators).

After the 15th, the Ares and Pontus use a LPNO (Low Phase Noise Oscillator), the Venus uses OCXO, and the Terminator 15th uses dual OCXOs, and I have no idea what a Terminator Plus 15th would be when it is released (if it is needed)

SNS

As you pointed out, you do need to be careful when adding a DDC to a DAC. You never want to downgrade the clock, so you want the clock in the DDC to be as good or better than the clock in the DAC.....in almost all cases, the clock in the DDC takes preference over the clock in the DAC

You can get some test tones here I think 

https://www.denafrips.com/config-i2s

You need to check left right and phase to make sure it’s all working correctly.

@kingbr   It may sound fine but channels can be reversed and you have to keep trying different pin outs.

@fthompson251 Thanks man! Appreciate the support. If I get the undistorted music, why is it necessary to do the test tones as well?

@kingbr Set your Hermes pin configuration to 000, then go through the pin settings on your Pontus with low volume until you get the undistorted music. Verify this afterward with test tones for left/right channels and phase. I just went through this with my new Terminator 15th. I set both to 000 and it didn’t work, I think I ended up at 010 on the Terminator for my situation. Argentus I2s. Here> https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/08/01/denafrips-gaia-ddc-terminator-plus-dac

This thread has helped me decide to try a ddc, probably Hermes, so thanks for that. My question is does anyone have experience buying products off AliBabba. There are Hermes for sale there for considerably less than other sellers, but I have never bought anything there. 

A Hermes + Pontus II will not be equal to a Terminator. However a Terminator II or Plus or 15th + Hermes with clock sync is even better.

I2S cables should be kept as short as possible, .5M or shorter best. I2S was never designed to transmit via cable such that theoretical best position for clock is just prior to I2S path in dac. Ed Meitner of EMM Labs explains this issue for those interested in the whys and wherefores.

One should also purchase an I2S cable vs HDMI cable, you only need 8 pins wired to transmit data and clock. And if purchasing more expensive silver cable this can be money saving, silver values being what they are. I've also found quality of cable can make a meaningful difference as well. I've only had two thus far, but the Tubulus Ximius easily bettered a $70 copper cable I was using. Both Audiolund and Tubulus make more affordable cables than my Ximius, but may still be above one's present budget.

As for extra cost of ddc and cable vs using that money for a better dac, one can only speculate. I could make a strong case the ddc won't become obsolete as long as one continues using dacs with I2S inputs, it brings out full potential of these dacs whereas usb this not likely. My Musetec 006 has pretty much state of art usb board and I2S easily bests it.

 @jastralfu  thank you! So yours worked first time? You didn’t have to play with the settings? So hope that will be the case for me..

@audphile1 I read a review that specifically stated that going this route is still less costly than bumping up to Terminator. Supposedly this performance is equal to Terminator when compared. Plus I could not afford to spend that much at this point and already have the Pontus…

@sls883 The 2.1 DH Labs cable specifically stated is I2S so I feel good about that😬

With a cost of a clock plus additional cables why not just step up to a Terminator instead of dumping money into clocks and cables. I’m having a hard time believing a clock on the Pontus will bridge a performance gap between it and the Terminator. 

@pbecker128 That's good to know. Thanks for the info. 

Re the DH Labs Ethernet cable (the Reunion). Really great. I put it in about six months ago, in lieu of a Chord Clearvue cable. It goes into an Eversolo DMP A6 and from there into an MSB Discrete DAC. I still don't understand how this happened but as soon as put in the DH Labs the sound volume went significantly up (along with becoming clearer). I'm thinking of getting the Reunion raw cable now and stringing it in the wall from my telecom router to the ethernet port near the audio setup.

The shorter the cable the better.  I think mine is 1m.  I bought my Hermes used and the pin settings worked perfectly when I connected it to the Pontus.  Denafrips has a section in the setup guide for the DDC about configuring the pins.  I beleive it’s trial and error but I don’t believe there are too many combinations to try.

@kingbr My DH Labs cable is an older 2.0b and it works fine. The Wyred for Sound cable doesn't even say what it is, but it's supposedly optimized for I2S.

I'm sure you'll be able to get the ddc to work with the dac. There's surely plenty of people that have connected those two devices. 

Thanks again @sls883. Apparently even though both will be DENAFRIPS you still have to adjust settings on both units using I2S. Weird. At least I can use his video as a guide while doing it. And apparently not all HDMI cables will work, Alvin mentioned that some do not so it’s trial and error. Pretty sure the DH Labs 2.1 will work. Hope so😬

@kingbr The connection between my ddc and dac is very simple because they are both Gustard and they have the same pinout.  My dac will work with other I2s pinout connections, but I didn't have to figure out which one.

Since you're going Denefrips ddc to Denefrips dac, I would think the pinouts are the same. 

Thanks for the info @sls883. I just measured and I think I can get by with .75m. However that only saves $15. Going to research that length thing some more before I commit…

Did you have to play with settings between your DDC and DAC by going I2S? Just watched a video by Alvin from Vinshine discussing this. Looks a little confusing? Any insight on this? 

@kingbr I'm able to keep my ddc very close to my dac, so I can get by with 0.5M.

I just got an I2s cable made by Wyred 4 Sound.  In 0.5M, it was half price for $99. I'm using it just now for the first time. I'm very impressed. Their 2M length is $149.

My dac is breaking in, so some of the improvement that I hear could be that. 

@jastralfu have you any info on the length of the HDMI/I2S cable between DAC and DDC? Any truth that this should be kept under 1m?

@sls883  Funny you mention the length of the cable. I just read something today where it is recommended to use <1m HDMI between DAC and DDC. Seems kind of crazy that that short of a length is recommended. Bizarre as I’ve always heard longer is better with most all cables…In fact John at The Cable Co strongly recommends at least 1m for all the cables I’ve bought.

I am going to go with 1m HDMI. I don’t think anything less will reach for me as I will have to have Hermes and Pontus separated. Don’t have the height clearance in my ent ctr to stack them…

@kingbr Nice savings. I saved $48 on the ethernet cable.  I'm not sure it will make a noticeable difference, but I needed a shorter cable, so I figured it was worth a shot.

What length of HDMI cable are you ordering?  I was told to make them short between a ddc and dac. 

@sls883 Glad to help! The crazy thing is I literally just got my final price request from The Cable Co yesterday, on the DH Labs power cable and HDMI cable. Was ready to pull the trigger today until I saw the email from DH Labs this morning! Crazy good timing😊 saving an extra $100 going direct through DH Labs👍🏻

@kingbr   Thanks for the heads up on the DH Labs sale. I was eyeballing their ethernet cable. 

Thank you again, All. Always appreciate folks time and advice😊

@sns thank you for the word of caution. This is why I’m doing quite a bit of research and reading many reviews. I actually posted a while back about is there a point at which we over-tweak to the point that it starts taking away from the sound. I already have an iFi Silencer, ADDPowr Symphony between network, streamer, and Pontus DAC. Now I’m ready to add another piece, a DDC…

All of this said, I have yet to read a review where someone said adding an Iris or Hermes didn’t improve the sound. Every review I’ve read the consensus goes from “audible improvement” to “significant improvement”. I’ve done enough research at this point to be comfortable pulling the trigger…

Now just have to gather the funds and see if I can make it happen. I have decided on the Hermes. Again all signs point toward the Hermes being worth doubling the cost of Iris…

BTW, DH Labs is running 20% off site wide!!! Going to jump on that with HDMI and power cable when I pull the trigger for Hermes😊😊

Number of issues on purchasing ddc for I2S. Very few streamers offer I2S output so in these cases ddc required for using I2S. Another concern is quality of clocks in ddc vs dac. If dac internal clock is equal to or better than ddc clock you're not getting any benefit from clocking with ddc, only possible benefit is the I2S pathway. Greatest benefit with ddc is when it's clock superior to dac internal clock, in this case more likely to be superior to usb. Whether it superior or not depends greatly on the quality of that clock, a high quality OXCO clock with high quality power supply to it is optimal. How these clocks implemented critical, not all clocks created equal, such that a poorly implemented OXCO clock could be inferior to quality implemented TXCO or Femto clock.

And then we have concern of input to ddc, generally this going to be usb, this should also be optimized for highest performance. A noisy or poor quality input to ddc will greatly impact ultimate performance.

My point in the above is don't automatically expect I2S to exceed usb, or in some rare cases other interfaces. Many dacs have sophisticated usb boards, less than optimized I2S will likely be inferior, especially if you have usb chain already optimized. A previous foray into I2S using Singxer SU6 and generic I2S cable proved inferior to my optimized usb setup.

I’ve been debating whether to get an Iris or a Hermes got a while now or upgrade my Pontus ll with a Venus or a Terminator. Don’t they already have better clocks in them?

Since everyone is having an opinion I want to share mine aswell. 

I don't understand why you got the eversolo if you don't use it as a standalone unit with the internal dac. So I would get a dedicated streamer and the DDC of your choice to feed Pontus over hdmi .

Absolutely it will improve the sound on any USB input, I use an Iris with my Pontus II. Just be sure to use a high quality HDMI cable. Supra 2.1 HDMI are good for the $60 they cost, but something like the Audioquest Vodka 48 8K/10K is what I settled on.

I added a Denafrips Iris DDC to my Pontus II last year and Ithought it pretty clearly improved the overall sound.  I’m using an UltraRendu with a LPS in the setup.  Best of luck

@painter24, this would be my fault. Apologies my friend😬

Great, thanks guys, well done, you've got me thinking Hermes too now 🤣

Another thread here addressing the same. I won't go into detail as I did on other thread, so in a word, yes, and get the OXCO clock Hermes or Gaia.

Thanks again @jastralfu, yup, trying for once to take the pain of the cost up front vs repackaging, taking pics, and selling the Iris down the line. I’ve always ended up in this position, so this time I’ll take the pain of the cost up front to get it right first time😂

Appreciate the advice and support!

I went with the Hermes for exactly this reason.  No regrets and would happily do it again.

Rear its ugly head-Freudian slip😂😂. God do I wish it would rest it’s ugly head😂

Have been doing a ton of research and it does appear the Hermes would be best with the Pontus. Hate spending that much though🤦🏼‍♂️. But I know me and if I go for Iris the upgrade disease will rest its ugly head. It hasn’t stopped yet so why would it now…

Yep, with the Pontus 👍

Thank you @painter24 . I did not want to spend that much for Hermes. So, you’re using the Iris with the Pontus? 

Can only mirror jastralfu’s observations.

I added an Iris to my Ares 12th-1, which I then replaced with the Pontus 15th; more of the same but with the uplift from upgrading to the Pontus

Good luck, let us know how you get on if you decide to pull the trigger 👍😊

Thank you @jastralfu! Very helpful. Appreciate the detailed reply, especially as a Pontus owner. 

Yes it would likely make a noticeable improvement.  I added a Hermes into my setup (I have the same DAC) and it made the soundstage wider and deeper, improved imaging and transients.  The Iris will likely make similar improvements.  The Hermes has a much better clock though.  I use the I2S connection from the DDC to the DAC.  So USB to DDC and I2S from DDC to DAC.