@lewm
If it's true that the internal SUTs on the Shindo phono sections are not as good as easily available outboard SUTs, then why spend money on the Shindo phono stages that have MC inputs, since in all cases the added gain is achieved via built-in SUTs. If Shindo make an MM only phono stage, that would be the one to buy, just from a cost-effective point of view.
The market agrees with you. The updated Monbrison only has MM input because most buyers prefer to bring their own SUT. Also appealing is the new version's use of output transformers, intended to lower the preamp's output impedance from 5000 to 600 ohms.
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@lewm
2V output from a DAC is neither high nor low output, compared to most other DACs. It's typical
Agree that is typical or standard voltage output for DACs. Most amplifiers input sensitivity is less than 2 volts. However, many listeners realize improved sound quality with a high quality active preamplifier in the signal path. Even so, you still want to avoid excessively high gain preamplifiers. Thus my suggestion for a modest/lower gain unit. 16 db of gain is gratuitous for most DACs.
Quick example, my DAC has 3.5 output voltage, line stage has 10 db of gain and speakers are 94 db sensitivity. My volume control range is usually 10-2:00 o’clock for a wide variety of recordings.
Charles
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2V output from a DAC is neither high nor low output, compared to most other DACs. It's typical. You don't need any gain at all downstream from a DAC with 2V output; that's more than enough signal voltage to drive any amplifier to full output and beyond. Are you guys referring to the linestage gain of a typical Shindo preamplifier?
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Shindo put volume controls on his amps to deal with the high gain. Most Shindo preamps have issues with high gain on other amps when using high efficiency speakers.
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@montaldo
8:30-9:00 volume control range is quite narrow/limited. 8 to 10 db of gain is probably ideal given the output voltage of your DAC.You’d have more range and fine tuning of the volume control.
Charles
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If it's true that the internal SUTs on the Shindo phono sections are not as good as easily available outboard SUTs, then why spend money on the Shindo phono stages that have MC inputs, since in all cases the added gain is achieved via built-in SUTs. If Shindo make an MM only phono stage, that would be the one to buy, just from a cost-effective point of view.
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Thanks for the responses. I was only surprised because with my Berning preamp I have to dial the digital higher than the phono. But I realized after reading your comments that the Berning mc transformers were adjusted to high gain. That explains it
No real downside to listening to digital at 8:30 or 9 o'clock on the volume control, right? It doesn't signal possible overload of the linestage does it? I have heard volume pots are less accurate about channel balance in their lower range but I am not concerned about that.
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If it has an output of 2V, that is way higher than the phono section. 2V is typical of most DACs, so I’m not sure why you’re surprised that the DAC needs more attenuation than the phono. That’s normal.
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Hi,
Well, 16 db of gain is still a pretty decent amount and it’s possible that your DAC could have more than the assumed 2V output.
Charles
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Hi guys. Returning to this thread because I actually bought a Masseto! I have had it up and running for a few days now. It sounds beautiful and seems to have adequate gain for my koetsu rwsp, just as you all predicted.
An unexpected oddity emerged though. I have a audio note 2.1 kits DAC with some modifications. I don't believe it's known to have a very high output (2v a friend of mine tells me). Yet with the volume control at 9:00 on the Shindo the volume is very loud. Comparable volume for the phono is more like 10:30 or 11:00. I just can't understand it.
Any thoughts? I believe I read somewhere that the mosseto has only 16DB gain line stage.
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@lalitk
I really appreciate your feedback and insight. At one time I gave serious thought to acquiring a Shindo preamplifier and amplifier combo. I subsequently chose the Coincident pairing and have been thrilled. However I believe that I’d have been very pleased with Shindo as well. Decisions!😊
I do not have a single doubt that if you ever decide to go with the Shindo Giscours and WE 300b SET pairing, there would be no looking back. Your comments on Aurender attributes are very encouraging without question. Thank you.
Charles
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@charles1dad
I did own Shindo pre paired with a bespoke 300B mono amp. Perhaps the best pre till date I’ve experienced in my system. Ken Shindo was a genius in connecting its listeners intimately to music through his masterpieces. I wish, I would have never sold the Monbrison but my plans kinda fell through. In case of his amps, I felt high efficiency speakers (97dB>) or the ones with field coil tech is the only way to experience full impact of Shindo delicious sound. Now that I’ve heard field coil speakers, the desire to put together all Shindo system with Giscours Pre and WE 300B Single Limited amp getting stronger as each day goes by :-)
As to Aurender sound characteristics, I’ll comment on what’ve consistently heard regardless of downstream components cause in 10 plus years of owning Aurender, I’ve been through lot of components. The sound of Aurender is incredibly faithful, airy with reverberation around the recording space. You’re immersed with musicality that has a larger than life sound.
Aurender is one of the best designed and engineered audio component that I’ve the pleasure to use and experience. Pair it with a high quality DAC and Switch and you’re in for a royal treat.
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I have played with outboard sets with a previous setup and the Hashimoto HM-7 based sut sounded amazing. The only thing I did not like about it is that it tended to make images very large, which for me makes the whole presentation less realistic. I know some people love big upfront images but I don't. Other than that the HM7 was clearly superior to my mc stage ... Can't even remember which photo it was.
My current preamp is a custom built David Berning all tube unit. It was originally built for Chris at Artisan Fidelity and I got hold of it a few years ago. It sounds absolutely fantastic and I'm probably an idiot for even thinking of replacing it. But I love shindo and a few years ago owned a Montrachet amplifier, which was one of the most musically compelling pieces of equipment I've ever owned. I would probably still have it except that it did not play well with my quads. The impedance was just no good for the Montrachet, and may have even damaged it if I had kept playing it! Of course I've moved on from those speakers since. So shindo has always had a great place in my heart and I know their preamps are supposed to be just wonderful. So my plan is to try one and if it does not beat the Berning, I will re-sell it. This is also one reason I need to buy used.
Yea I love my v4 amps. I run them with KT-150 tubes, even though they are the early versions, not the KT-150-optimized ones. Formerly an el-34 fan, I have been converted to the KT-150. It mates a great midrange with bigger dynamics and a bit more frequency range. And not crazy nos tube prices. I save my nos crazy for input tubes ;)
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@lalitk
I did not know that you had a Shindo component/system background. Very interesting. Does the Aurender house signature remind or have any sonic characteristics in common with Shindo?
Charles
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I have tried at least one LOMC direct into a Monbrison that was .3 millivolts. The built in Lundahl had no problem with it. I would get the best Shindo pre you can get, and ad a step up transformer when funds allow. Cartridges I have successfully used with Shindo preamps are EMT Tsd15 and Tsd 75, Charisma wood body (Denon) 103, and My Sonic Lab Hyper gold body. If your price range allows it, the current production Monbrison would be worth checking out. I agree w/ Bob’s advice as far as going with an outboard SUT. I tried about 4 or 5 with my (Ken era) Monbrison. Always preferred the sound with the outboard SUT. I tried the low & high impedance versions of the standard A23, the Silver Core, Homage T2, EMIA (Slagle), and one more very well thought of SUT I’m forgetting. So ya...Art knew what he was talking about. What preamp are you using with your Quickie V4’s. Nice amps... I love my Shindo SET, but sometimes I miss those KT88 V4's.
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The late Art Dudley was a Shindo fan, and if I remember correctly, he preferred the use of an outboard SUT vs. using the internal Lundahl transformers. His favorite was a Hommage T1. If you look at the end of this review, you can see his preference Look at Listening 171.
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Thanks again, everyone! I will start looking for a used Masseto. There is one in Canada that is a possibility.
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@montaldo
Indeed, Masseto is superior to old Monbrison. The point of bringing Monbrison in my previous post was to consider Monbrison over Aurieges. If I have an opportunity to grab Masseto, I wouldn’t think twice. It is my belief that newer revised Monbrison is better than Masseto.
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If the Masseto had enough gain for a Benz Ebony TR S (0.1mV) as tested by Dagogo website then you should not worry.
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Thanks for the great feedback guys. Good to hear a .3mv cartridge sounded great on the Masseto.
Lalitk, I seem to read repeated opinions that the masetto is superior to the old monbrison, and potentially not as good as the new monbrison. Not sure if you agree. Also these opinions may be colored by people's personal preferences as usual. Not always sure what "better" means to them.
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@montaldo
A friend of mine had a Masseto, which has now been upgraded to a Petrus.
I heard his Masseto with his Koetsu Coralstone (not sure of the output) and my Ikeda 9GSS (0.3 mVrms (1kHz 35.4mm/sec. at 45 peak))
His system sounded great with both cartridges
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+1, @jperry
The Masseto is a much better pre/phono than entry level Aurieges. If you still looking at options, also consider used Monbrison Pre from Ken Shindo era, which has an outstanding MC phono stage. I used my Monbrison with HANA Umami Red / SME 15AV TT.
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Thanks for answering the bonus question! Appreciated. May I ask what cartridge you used and its output in mv?
Stu
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If you have not you should read the article below which should answer your question. Short answer: The Masseto is a better choice, and has a SUT built in to it.
Like the version of the Aurieges I tried last month, the Masseto is a full-function preamplifier, with line and phono stages under one roof. The Masseto goes a step further, providing a switchable choice between moving-magnet and moving-coil phono inputs, the latter accomplished with an onboard pair of amorphous-core step-up transformers.
The Masseto didn’t just play music better than the Shindo Aurieges: It sounded better, too. The more expensive preamp had a distinctly wider frequency range, no doubt because of its lower output impedance. And while I didn’t expect the stunningly low noise floor of the Aurieges to be bettered so soon, the Masseto did just that: It was even quieter, darker, and deeper between the notes—and, as with its less expensive brother, I simply could not get the Masseto’s phono section to hum.
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