Servers: Are we there yet?

Thanks for the update, jrun.  Enjoy your server!

Hello again everyone,

It appears this thread has basically died, but tomcy6 did request that after I had listened to my PK100 setup for awhile to post my impressions.  Well, I am still very happy.  It remains difficult to compare to my Meridian G08 cd player because in order to A/B the two players I either have to listen to  the Meridian on my W4S dac or use the cd player without the W4S dac.  With the dac in the picture, the cd player MIGHT be a tad more resolving.  But I am really splitting hairs here.  As always the software has more to do with sound quality than the hardware.  What I mean by that is great recordings sound great either way I play them and lesser recordings sound, well, less good.  I am happy to have a server and do not see myself going back to a stand alone cd player anytime soon.  That being said, I have no plans to get rid of the Meridian, I just play it much less.  Thanks for reading.

                       jrun

@drdkey,  I have not heard about Melco. Before settling with any streamer, be sure to check out the user interface.  From my experience, Aurender has one of the best iOS app compare to any standalone streamer available today.  

I am sure owners of Lumin and Auralic may disagree :-)

I own N10 and IMHO, it's an amazing player.  Pair it with a tube output DAC and you will realize it's full potential. 

@almarg
After I wrote my post re connections from the internet (and you replied) ...I should add that there is a simple and reasonable approach to mitigate the concerns I raised: Stand up a separate and independent wireless or ethernet network for "foreign" devices.

By example, in my home I have a Verizon wireless router which essentially provides connectivity to the Internet. This router can be configured in several interesting and useful ways by the owner.

One important way is to create two or more separate networks that only pass traffic through the router and NOT to each other. If you trust a couple of your devices, then put those on your "trusted" sub-net; likewise, if you don;t know what the heck a device is really doing (or where it’s networking software came from ...China?), then limit it’s internet access to the other "UNTRUSTED" sub-net.

This is very effective, and easy to do with almost all ISP provided routers, if your ISP router can’t do this then buy an additional router (or firewall etc) that can and stick it in-between the ISP router and all your devices.

This strategy of "isolation" or network "segmentation" has an additional benefit and that is traffic management. High-bandwidth devices should send their traffic as directly to the ISPs router as possible, otherwise it adds to internal home-network congestion. So, in my house I have several separate and isolated networks, each has one or more wireless access points. The traffic from these separate networks can not cross network segments, it can only get directly to the ISP router. This alone makes my other segments unaffected by the congestion.

I am replacing my Mac mini. The Aurender N100H was nice but the N10 was amazingly better, IMO, with a larger soundstage and natural bass. I am interested to know if anyone has compared the Aurender N10 to the Melco?

For the last 18 months or so I've had an MMS-5A media server from Autonomic Controls.  It needs to be connected via a wired ethernet connection to the home network.  It also has an iPad/Android app to use content.  But it also has a Windows app, that can be used instead of the iPad/Android app.
I use iTunes to manage my library of digital content (AIFF files), and Autonomic has an app you can install on your Windows machine to "automagically" sync content to the server. It also connects to all my streaming services (Tidal, Spotify & Tunein).  It also has a wonderful app that "automagically" backs up the content to my Google Drive account.
I've been very happy with the unit.  The iPad app is not great, but it gets the job done.
The unit has a built in DAC, which I have never used, as I have an external DAC, using the coax connection (my Windows laptop uses the USB input on the DAC).

jrun, Let us know how your setup sounds after you've had some time to listen to it.

@ben2300 Actually I started out with a Lumin D-1, and upgraded to the A-1. It of course has the external power supply, and I used a Synology NAS. Need to choose a backup option now.  Loving the convenience and sound quality. 

I will ill be interested in your thoughts on the U-1.

@hcalland Im' also using Lumin T1 and A1 before. and now getting a U1 to improve the system. 
And i believe you already updated your power supply from your T1 correct? if not this is the step ONE to improve.

I have been lurking this thread and many others for about 4 months.  Without a large budget to work with, but wanting bit perfect server feeds to the dac, I purchased an Auraliti PK100 with power supply here on Audiogon.  I ordered a Trendnet ethernet over power line kit from Amazon, plugged one module in a wall socket in the office and connected that to my router with a cat 5 cable from Blue Jean Cables.  I plugged the other module into a wall socket in my audio room (at the other end of the house) and connected that to my PK100, then connected the PK100 to my dac via toslink, turned everything on, and presto! Using my wife's old ipad I now have a great sounding digital jukebox.  Does it sound as good as my Meridian G08 cd player?  I'm not sure, I have not done any a/b listening, not sure I will because it all sounds damn good.  I am in the process of ripping my cd collection to flac using dbpoweramp.  I agree with the statements that there is still work to be done in computer audio, but having fingertip access to any song/artist on over 1000 cds is crazy cool.   

oblgny,

Glad the Sony worked out for you. 

I am still deciding my next move for a renderer/streamer. I've been captivated by the pre-launch discussion surrounding the Sonore Microrendu, which is coming out sorta-soon maybe, with price TBD. Lively debate on Computeraudiophile about it.
There's a good chance I'll go DIY, with a friend building a low powered Linux-based computer to use strictly for local and streaming audio, controlled by Daphile, Volumio or similar free software. It's the wild west out there in digiland! Cheers,
Spencer 

Another good value server with built-in dac :-

http://www.whathifi.com/cambridge-audio/azur-851n/review

sbank...

I got the Sony about a week ago and I am happy as a clam in mud.  Nice piece, easy to use,  good sonics.

In the latest issue of Stereophile, Mike L. raved about the Melco server and preferred it to the Antipodes DS. Sounds like very good value, sound- and price-wise.

If you have a music server, and a large music library, BE SURE to have a reliable backup and restore capability to go along with it.

All devices die eventually including storage devices. Not if but when it happens, you need a backup to be able to restore from. I’ve failures impact me already on 2 occasions in teh lsat 7-8 years or so where a restore of music files was needed.

It goes with the turf and is a unique and critical consideration for any large and valued music file library.

My music server is PLex and Logitech Media servers running on an older Gateway laptop running Windows 10. I rip using dbpoweramp to a conventional Seagate 1.5 TB external USB drive and use another 2.0 Tb attached for backups.

I plan to add an active second backup copy sometime soon. I might consider adding another backup other than directly attached disk drive ( the fastest but not the safest) for this but am not sure yet how. I have about .7 Tb of mostly lossless compressed FLAC files in my library which would take forever to restore from cloud storage over an internet connection if needed.  NAS on my home network is the other option.

I am also still looking at different backup software solutions on Windows 10. Seagate manager worked nicely on Windows 7 but I did not care for newer Seagate Dashboard on Windows 10. I added a native Windows 10 File History backup just last week. It seems to work well but I have not tested a full restore yet and I am not sure if it can be restored easily to non-Windows platform if needed without using the restore function. I’d like to be able to just flat copy all my library files from disk to disk in order to restore if needed, but not sure that is possible.

So still working on the perfect restore solution on Windows 10 if any suggestions but sound quality wise things are the cat’s meow and have been for a few years now.

Ripping may necessitate internet access for a bit check and artwork and info, but with a laptop, a harddrive, and a dac, you can use a music server without the internet. Convenience from your listening position, however, may lead you to wanting the assistance of the internet.

I started life with a music server with a Mac Powerbook with a SSD, Itunes through Pure Music rips and a back up drive. Then HD Tracks came along only to be followed by double native DSD downloads on a fairly expensive music server with data on SSDrives. I control it from a MS Surface computer using JRiver among other softwards.

oblgny,
If a reader concludes that internet is required to listen to your own library, that might affect their consideration of the product. Eliminating potential customers is certainly a "slam" to a manufacturer. As arafiq further explained, internet is not required unless you want to stream internet content such as Tidal or Qobuz. Sure, no harm intended, but please just let that point go...

Trying to be helpful here, every product in the category will require internet connection to stream from music services. Every product should not require internet to play your own library of music (whether stored in a drive plugged directly into your player/computer/streamer or stored on a NAS(networker attached storage) device which is plugged into your router(often in a basement etc., often wherever internet comes into your home). 

The Sony is supposed to be pretty simple and wholly contained, that might be the ticket for you.

I've been investigating the Aurelic Aries Mini for the last few weeks. There are a couple of detailed threads about it's sound and its use on computeraudiophile. I suggest that you read them closely and proceed with caution if the content is hard to digest. Many on that sight are very technically capable and that crowd still reports many nuanced setup tweaks of home network and computer/tablet settings to get to 100% user-friendly operation of the Mini and the other Aries products. Overall the company is doing a lot of great things to make this a super product line, but there are speedbumps on that road and you need some patience to get it right; reportedly more so than with the Bluesound or Sony stuff. Cheers,
Spencer

arafiq...

Perhaps I stand corrected, perhaps not.  I hope you find your's more pleasurable to use than I did.  Like I stated earlier, the sonics were quite good. Mind you, my displeasure with the medium itself is not solely brand specific - I've tried two Olives, ReQuest Audio, and the Bluesound.  Of them all the Bluesound WAS the best - recommended by people who retail it and by retailers who don't, based upon my needs. 

My last ditch attempt at having another go at this medium will be arriving this Wednesday the 10th, a Sony  HapZ1es. If this doesn't work I'm returning my high school equivalency diploma and dragging my Pioneer SX1050 receiver from the closet!

PS:. Has anyone here bought the new Auralic Aries mini?

No but I’m in the process of buying a Node. I’ve spent considerable time picking the brains of a very competent audio engineer who works at the Magnolia Design Center. He assures me that an Internet connection (via your ISP) is not required for the Vault or the the Node

even the folks at Bluesound agree that Internet access is not required 

https://support.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/articles/200898267-Does-my-Bluesound-Player-require-Internet-...

arafiq...

I'm confused as well.  Do you own a Bluesound Vault?

Ok so I guess you are using the terms Internet and home network interchangeably? I still stand by my assertion that you don't need the Internet to use the Vault or the Node unless you use spotify or tidal 

sbank...

In no way,  shape, or form did I "slam" the Bluesound Vault 2/Node 2.  Re-read my posts and see for yourself.  In fact I even stated that the sonics of the product was excellent.

When I ripped some of my library onto the Vault 2,  then took it downstairs to my stereo it would not play.  Anything.  I went back to my dealer,  explained,  and they stated to do what I wanted I would need the Node 2 as well.  So I bought it.  That worked fine,  but it was not what I wanted.

What you get with the Bluesound is definitely a very decent product.  Included in the box is a very simple set of instructions,  nothing more than your typical "start up" booklet.  Once configured,  the ripping,  (quite lengthy) the collection of metadata,  etc.,  worked as advertised/promised in the literature.  

Troubleshooting some issues such as duplicating files,  no artwork,  etc,  required login onto their site and wading through volumes of information.  Fine.  Good support.

The suggestions and help I received from fellow members here were welcome and appreciated.  However,  all I wanted to do, and all I still want to do,  is transfer my iTunes and CD collection onto a player without having connections to anything other than my preamp.  I don't listen to music on my computer, nor do I make spreadsheets on my stereo.  

When I was in high school I failed the most basic algebra course because I believed,  and still believe, that the alphabet and numbers should never be commingled.  (I eventually passed.)

Remember when there were CD players that could hold 500 discs?  And no,  I never had one...)

But THAT'S the basic concept here!

All of these products are designed to have a working internet connection in one way, shape, or form. What's the point in bickering over the details?

oblgny,

Please answer my questions to you posted now at the bottom of page 1 of this thread. 
Without any detailed explanation of the facts, this all just sounds like something about the setup was misunderstood. No big deal, we've all done that :-)
However, it's ridiculous and irresponsible to tell us the Bluesound needs the internet to function when not streaming an internet music service, if you can't explain why having internet makes a difference. So far no one has suggested any reason why that would be a requirement to use that product. 
Let's be fair to Bluesound here...personally I have no stake here, just don't want to say a product slammed with false conclusions. Cheers,
Spencer

Some day- not today nor tomorrow. There is much more improvement to be accomplished.

arafiq....
You can disagree but you are wrong.

If the vault could connect to the internet for all the metadata and whatnot,  be unplugged,  taken downstairs and connected to my stereo system via whatever cables and played from its hard drive,  I would not have purchased the Node.

I may be looking for something that doesn't exist,  but some manufacturer out there should take note!

Thanks guys for the input.  I was pretty sure that's how the BlueSound product worked.

Also, if I've read the Sony HAP manual correctly, the only way to get CDs into it's internal drive is via the CD drive on a computer with Sony's proprietary software installed.  So you would actually HAVE TO use the computer to do that function.

I'll second that.  I have a Bluesound Vault 2 and Node for downstairs.  I happen to have my computer next to it so that I can pull in files from a previous iTunes collection via the Vault but I don't need the computer to run the Vault.  In fact, I'm typing on said computer right now and listening to CDs that I have burned directly to the 2TB hard drive of the Vault

I don't agree. The Vault has to be connected to the internet only to download album art for the locally stored files, or play music from cloud service providers such as Spotify or Tidal. Even if you're sharing files within your network, you don't need internet access. I thought that was the whole point of the Vault product.

I looked into the Sony product but it also required internet connection to download cover art or play Tidal. The other thing is that I don't see any digital output on the Sony. I might be wrong but I think what that means is that you cannot use another DAC if you wish to at some point.

I'm confused. How is the Sony any better (in terms of functionality only, as we don't know the SQ differences) than the Bluesound Node 2 and Valut 2 combo? What am I missing?

oblgny,
Why are you saying that the vault has to be connected to the internet to play?
Why are you saying that your computer has to be on for the vault to play?  
After reading about it, the vault acts as a NAS and has internal storage. You should be able to play files stored in the vault device without internet nor computer. If you have another NAS(e.g. Mycloud, Synology, etc.) connected to your router, any files stored there should be accessible by the Bluesound app and played without computer nor internet.
Yes, you need internet to play streaming content (e.g. Tidal, Quobuz). If you have Bluesound app on a wireless device(e.g. tablet or phone) can't you control the vault wirelessly without a computer? Reviews seem to say that you can. 
Sorry, if I misunderstand, but it sounds like you are inadvertently making statements that kill Bluesound's lack of functionality and probably aren't true. With best intentions, Cheers,
Spencer

@mofimadness 
Because the vault has to be connected to the Internet to play at all.  

Thats the the sole reason why I purchased the Node subsequently.  

@oblgny...I'm alittle confused?  Why do you have to leave your computer on or even be near it to use the Bluesound products?

And how does the Sony unit differ in hook up and access to the Bluesound gear?

I thought I understood how each of these devices work, but apparently not?

Thanks.

Hello again folks,

My new Sony Hapz1es is due to arrive on Wednesday the 10th.  I just had a discussion with one of my audio guys whom,  even though he does not sell it,  agreed with me that this is perhaps the best solution for me.  I got to listen to a slew of Bel Canto equipment while we were discussing things,  too.

Noice stuff.

I'll offer my immediate impressions as soon as I'm able.  Thanks.

arafiq...
I had no issues with the BLUESOUND Node 2 nor the Vault2 

@oblgny  I'm in the market for a Node 2 (don't care about the Vault). Apart from the fact that you didn't like the idea of leaving your computer on all the time, did you have any other issues with the Node? How would you rate the SQ compared to straight from CD source?

Hello folks....
I sold my Bluesound Vault2 with Node2 to a fellow member here (most current iterations) after growing tired of getting too damned close to my computer too often to play music.  My computer is upstairs,  my stereo is downstairs,  to run an ethernet cable approximately 100 feet was not going to happen.  To leave my computer on just to play music bothered the heck was not going to happen,  either.

The sonics of the Bluesound were appreciable,  don't mistake my displeasure with the format to cast aspersions on Bluesound.  I subscribed to Tidal as well.  It was fun trying to stump Tidal on albums that I already have...

I just today purchased a Sony Hapz1es right here on the 'Gon for far less than it's advertised all over the place - low enough to give me another go at this category.  I want simple,  and from what my research into it has thus far uncovered is that it is simple.

If not I'll dig up my 8tracks and drive off a cliff.

scott_w, 

how do you operate Sony app and player when there is no internet connectivity?

I am late to the party, but glad to see this topic discussed by new and old computer audio users. 

I am am a new convert, and chose an all out assault with the purchase of a Lumin A-1 and Synology NAS. It took 3 painful weeks to get all my 300+ CDs ripped with their associate artwork, but I am now more than happy with result. So much so, that I sold my SACD player.   I also use Tidal, an excellent source in my opinion. I sort of hate paying for music via a subscription this way;. I would rather own my music outright. However, I am able to now enjoy music I would otherwise would not consider because things are now so convenient. 

I see there are a few Aurender users here. Are there any Lumin uses, or does anyone have an opinion on either of the systems?

I've been a very bad girl,' she said, biting her lip. 'I need to be punished.'
'Very well,' he said and installed Windows 10 on her laptop.

I've never had any experience with Windows 10, but judging by this joke it might be bad (like Vista?).  I use Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit at work and it is very stable.   I also drive 1996 Toyota - Avalon (bless this car).  It will be very likely running for next 10 years.  I have to find a way to kill it (so many nice new cars).

" If ain’t broke don’t fix it."

I usually tend to agree with that.  I still drive a 1996 Toyota for example.  

But the full potential of music streaming is yet to be realized for me but things are moving forward nicely, so I want to keep up in this case.

I also still run Logitech Squeeze System which is legacyware essentially at this point.  Little or nothing new there, including fixes.   I was very nervous about upgrading my music server to Windows 10.     Ironically, Logitech server continued to run fine but my older backup software from Seagate did not so I had to change.

Mapman, Yes it is nice feature, but if you’re afraid of any changes to your server then you can do this on the other computer or tablet (or phone). I update my computer/server from internet, since I’m using it as a home computer, and never had any issues. My TV firmware I updated only once - If ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I work with a company that specializes in digital streaming, Audio Doctor,

and we routinely setup servers from modified Mac Minis, and PC's to dedicated streamer/dacs from Lumin, Cary, Devialet, Cambridge Audio and many others.

The Aurender servers blow away the Modified Macs and PCs, by the way.

Also the Lumin A1 and T1 outperformed a $13K CD player from one of the best names in digital! So it is time to embrace the practical and fun world of streaming! 

You do not need a working wifi network with the aurender, you can use a blu tooth dongle to setup two way communication between the Aurender and the Ipad, so now you can play all the stored music on the hard drive without a working internet connection, obviously you won't be able to stream Tidal without a working internet setup. 

Personally we feel that a good strong fast network is an essential part of the new streaming world I would embrace it. 

Many music and media servers use live internet connections to make extended information on what’s playing available. Things like lyrics, artwork, artist bios, reviews, related recordings, concert locations and dates, etc. Much more related info than can be had without a live internet connection. That’s a trend that will only continue to grow. You can actually learn more about what you are listening to while you listen easier than ever before. Not a requirement in some cases, but a very nice feature that I have found to greatly increase my musical IQ and level of enjoyment over time and that I would miss now that I have it.

You're welcome.  It is s good decision if your computer is only used for playback.  It doesn't change the fact that you still need to make backup in case of any hardware failure.

Ok, in that case I will disconnect my system from the internet. Thanks for the help.

System can work forever without internet access.  Software code doesn't change.  Unreliable charger is hardware and not the software.   People use PC computers controlling production without any access to internet.   Many of them still run Windows NT while some run Windows 98 or even DOS.  They don't have any updates since there is no updates.

"Why lack of internet updates should affect performance?  Performance is always the same if nothing is changing."

Upgrades need to occur, for both the Ipad and server operating systems.

Here's an analog analogy: There's a room in your house where you store all your LPs and CDs. The door is locked by default, so you need to use an electronic key fob every time you wish to enter. The charger for the key fob is a bit unreliable, so you don't always have access. Not many audiophiles would tolerate such an arrangement, but we have to accept it when a computer is involved.

Interesting and thought-provoking post by Vicweast. To add some perspective, I’ll mention that the log of the SonicWall hardware firewall/router I mentioned that I use shows, on average, an unwanted and in most cases presumably illegitimate incoming connection attempt (that it throws away) approximately every two minutes, 24/7/365. With those requests originating from IP addresses in just about any country one could name, around the world.

I’d imagine, though, that the majority of those attempts would fail to get through even a very basic router, due to the network address translation function routers provide between the user’s external IP address and the internal addresses of each of the devices on the LAN. And while I have no specific knowledge of the Aurender products, I’d expect that more often than not such products are Linux-based, which I suppose is targeted by the bad guys much less frequently than Windows operating systems.

That said, and although I’ve never been accused of being particularly paranoid, I personally would not want to be without a SonicWall or something comparable.

Regards,
-- Al

@djohnson54 @sbank @psag I say this as a cyber security guy: Devices that allow connectivity to and from the Internet (actually ANY network) represent a danger to other devices in your network that will subsequently develop a trust relationship with said Internet-connecting device.
You absolutely need to understand that your home network now has devices in it that run software that came from whom?That is just a simple fact today and alone it should not stop you from using them, but you need to mitigate against those mechanisms being insecure (who wrote the server code, who configured it?). Think of these devices as requiring constant immunization otherwise every other device might also get infected...
What to do? You have several strategies, at minimum you need to lock down your Internet facing router and perhaps add a second device (such as a firewall) between the server and the router. That acts as a second level of defense against door-rattlers, knob-turners and server-probers who are sitting in their moms basement on their junior high laptop.
The reason for all that above is two fold: First, create awareness that IP devices are dangerous to your home network if they are insecure; Second, to complain at how poorly such devices generally are configured and that if the vendor gets enough calls from us they might do device security better.
QUESTION: Has anyone seen ANY penetration analysis results for any of these music servers? 

Yeah, as a veteran in the software/cyber industry it is my experience that MOST software sucks, so I am not surprised at this in a music server. 
...However, you might do some discovery work here: The server has at least one IP address (wireless and/or Ethernet), have you tried accessing it directly via a web browser? (As in http://?.?.?.?  ...where ?.?.?.? is the 4 octet server address.) The server may express its service management through a web server that you could navigate.