I am just curious, why charging buyer, in such a blatant way, for PayPal service that SELLER is enjoying? If those 2-3% will 'impoverish' given seller, why not including them in selling price? As a matter of principal, i'll never buy from such a seller!
We all pay the 3-4%. This is a cost of doing business and is simply added to the price by most retailers. Don’t ask for the paypal fee, just add the fee to your price if you’re already losing more than you want in this market and paying high selling fees to boot! In the end it comes down to the total proceeds you decide are needed from the sale...net net.
I absolutely agree with the OP. I don’t pay 3% anywhere else I use a credit/debit card. Same thing. Now if only I didn't have to show an ID to buy groceries....
Again, I'm no levying additional fees. If you decided that you want to use paypal, then you take responsibility for the fees.
If you decided to use some external escrow service that charges fees, how is that my responsibility? There are many way to pay for items, most charge fees. I accept cash, personal checks, bank certified checks. I ship when my bank tells me the item clears. Or one can come by and pick up the item. non of these methods imposes any fees.
But if a person absolutely insist on me using some service that imposes fees so that they can feel better and safer. Well, okay, but you pay the fees.
Again, I don't see an issue here. This is not the same as a retail provider charging for cash or credit purchases. Their price includes the credit card provider's fees, to charge more says that they are double dipping and getting the fee twice.
But, as I said, I am not a retail provider. I am not a store. I don't use credit services. not the same thing.
I sold a Mercedes SL600 a few months ago to a gentleman in Germany. The price was agreed on. The buyer paid all fees. Shipping, wire transfer fees, etc. and the price of the car we agreed on. He wire transferred the funds into an established account that I opened. My bank told me it cleared. He arranged a shipping company to come and pick up the car. I transferred title once the payment cleared and signed for the delivery. My responsibility ends there. There is no difference here, unless you are a retail provider or store masquerading as a private seller.
I guess I'm not seeing the issue. I find it amazing that someone would want me to pay fees for a service that they insist that I use that I typically wouldn't use. That makes no sense to me.
I’ve sold a fair amount of stuff here always mentioning that I don’t levy any additional “fee” to the buyer other than, when I’ve shipped items, shipping.
I don’t buy gas from stations that charge more for credit/debit than cash, and I won’t do business with a retailer that does the same. Period.
When I list an item for sale here, that is the price that I'm willing to accept for an item with no fees and no shipping costs. in other words, a price for a person that comes and physically picks up the unit.
I do not add paypal fees initially because I don't like paypal and prefer not to use it. It is a royal pain to me. It solely protects the buyer and does absolutely, and I do mean absolutely nothing to protect the seller, so why use it?
If, however, the buyer prefers that we use paypal, then that is their suggestion because they don't trust me to send a personal check (which I will wait to ship until my bank tells me it cleared. Which, there are still several ways that sellers can get burned with personal checks), or they can stop by (after agreeing to purchase the item first), listen to the unit work in my system, pay and take the unit home).
If they want me to use paypal, then they should be prepared to pay the paypal fee. Otherwise, if they get seriously ignorant about it, I can simply relist the unit with the paypal fee included (just for that person) and they can buy it. What exactly is the difference????
I am not paying fees. Why should I? I am selling an item. My background and ratings show I haven't had issues, and the items look like and perform like listed. I play them extensively before shipping to make sure they work fine. I use the manufacturer's shipping boxes (I try to not through away manufacturer's shipping containers).
With paypal, I can ship a working amp to a buyer, the paypal fees are held in some sort of escrow until released by the buyer. The buyer can short the outputs and fry the output drivers and possibly some other circuits and claim to paypal that it wasn't working when they got it. Well, that sucks.
So, each must take risks here. My risk if you desire to use paypal is that you (the buyer) can claim the item isn't working correctly or doesn't look like advertised and ship it back to me and the money is gone. your risk is you pay the paypal fees.
I'm having a hard time seeing a real problem here.
I am not a store. Period. I am a private person trying to sell an item for a particular price. I will not pay shipping costs, nor will I pay paypal fees (since I really don't want to use paypal anyway).
But, as I said earlier, if it really puts a stone in your shoe, then tell me and I'll relist the item just for you and include the paypal fee in the list price.
But, I absolutely will not and do not sell anything here that does not look and perform as advertised. It just isn't worth it to me to be deceptive about selling items.
I had a Mark Levinson ML3 amp that I sold a few years ago. It failed in one channel. So, It was repaired and upgraded with new transistors, and other items. It sounded way better than new and I really regretted and still regret selling it. But, I had to clear out some items. I tend to collect and when I look up and take a breath, I find I have too much stuff. Anyway, the buyer (who wasn't what he claimed), agreed to the purchase, came to my house to pay and pick up the unit. I had it connected to my system and we listened to the amp for about an hour. It sounded wonderful. He was satisfied and paid. we talked about equipment and music and it was great. I helped him carry that very heavy amp to his SUV and he drove off.
Turns out he was a flipper/dealer and sold the amp to someone in Singapore. He called a few weeks later complaining that the "new buyer", said one channel was out. I told him to bring it back and I would check it out. It was working when he picked it up, so if it isn't working, I have the parts and knowledge to repair it. He then told me he sold it to a person in Singapore. I was amazed. I told him that the amp could have been damaged in shipping or the new buyer could have shorted the speaker outputs and fried some output drivers. Either way, how was this my fault when it clearly worked when you picked it up???
I probably would have taken the amp back, repaired the damage the new buyer caused and either kept it or sold it.
But, that couldn't happen, because it was gone.
Anyway, the amp was advertised as repaired and upgraded with a detailed list of what was done and, also advertised as working.
Use paypal and the buyer would have told paypal it wasn't working and got his money back from paypal and I would have ended up with a damaged amp.
If I was not prepared "to take a leap of faith" with certain sellers I would not use PayPal as friends and family so the seller incurs no fees. Have done that with the last 3 sellers of fair priced items I have purchased from here and audiomart. No buyer protection in that case.
I’m not sure I agree. The buyer is getting the benefit of being protected and we all know PayPal tends to side with the buyer. I usually offer PayPal and the option to send a check or money order. You buyers sometimes need to take a leap of faith. I’d rather wait for a check to clear any day than get paid immediately via PayPal. And no, my items I sell are as I advertise so I don’t need PayPal, but some of you buyers do.
Actually I think you will find the seller IS responsible, after all they are getting the benefit of receiving payment IMMEDIATELY. PayPal are not just going to give that service away. Pretty sure it is in PayPal TOS that the seller should not try to pass on the fees to the buyer. Or words to that effect. Better just for seller to never even,mention PayPal fees as it does cause many to just pass right away
Agreed. The seller controls all aspects of the transaction and should be willing to pick up the PP fees. If the seller accepts an offer then nothing really changes the calculus in my mind about the seller picking up the PP fees.
I never charge Paypal fees since the auction price is what I agree to anyway, and it seems to complicate things. I also charge a reasonable "flat fee" for shipping that covers most of the CONUS and if I'm off by a few bucks, so what? I control the whole thing by having a minimum price anyway, so alienating those who dislike Paypal fees seems like a bad idea.
I just don't pay any attention to the whole "PayPal, add 3%" thing. If want to buy an item, I'll just let the seller know the total amount I'll pay. The seller can take it or decline to sell.
wow, even I am amazed that that message got dumped by the admin. There was nothing inflammatory in the message and it was not attacking any user personally or impartially.
Truly admin? Seriously? Just what about my last post was deemed worthy of being removed?
Well let us repost it (worded slightly differently to see if content or) and see what happens.
When I see on an ad "buyer pays 3% paypal fees" or similar I just move right along no matter if I am truly interested in the item in question.
However what I found even more ludicrous was a couple of dealer ads that suggested that the buyer should not only stump up the paypal fees but also THEIR Audiogon selling fees as well.
Needless to say they received emails which they did not have the decency or courage to reply back to.
I created a thread on this subject about 2 years ago and the vitriol that was poured forth you would have thought I was suggesting sacrifice your first born rather than refuse to pay the PayPal fee as a buyer!
PayPal requires sellers to pay 3%. So sneaky sellers are trying to pass this off on unsuspecting buyers. And getting away with it! Don't patronize sellers that do this!
Everyone has different thoughts, but whenever I see an ad that says "paypal add 3%", it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I would not buy anything from these sellers.
Sellers - wake up! This is not something that will help you sell your stuff. Just list your pricing with the expectation that YOU will cover paypal costs. This is just like any other vendor that will cover credit card fees if you choose to use a credit card. No penalty for using a credit card or paypal for the consumer.
As a hobbyist when I sell here (not often) I will clearly state; "No PayPal Fee's" "Free Shipping" "No Offers Please Fixed Price" I'll factor the lowest price I'm willing sell something for including those costs. If the item is heavy I will charge shipping or sometimes be willing to work that with a buyer.
When I buy from a dealer in most cases if I read 3% for PayPal I'll pass.
I have found that listing items where I include the PayPal and Continental U.S. UPS shipping, takes those two items "off the table", and makes items easier to sell.
PayPal is not a bank. No bank freezes your money without warning. Only Police can shut you bank account, in my culture at least. PayPal can freeze your account when they dare, quite criminal act. PayPal is a greedy faceless monster that doesn´t give a damn for me not you. They only care for their asses. Total garbage. Period.
When you sign a mercant service agreement with a bank, you are specifically warned that adding 3% is in violation of the terms. Offering a 3% for cash is permitted (sematics). Someone must pay, there are no free lunches! (Second Law) In Asia, merchants almost ALWAYS add 3%, agreement notwithstanding. THey know this, as they, to a man (or woman)will NOT itemize said surcharge. Paypal is, well, not a bank. If the deal hinges upon 3% neither party is serious.
Cant we all just get along? Here's an idea, split the fees. Both parties benefit. The Seller is more likely to sell if someone can charge the fee( we're a nation in incredible debt) plus he or she, knows they have funds immediately. As a buyer it's convenient, plus you also know the seller has recived funds in case of later problems( like no item) so you have somebody on your side.Or if your a seller ask if the buyer would be willing to absorb a portion of the cost, rather than the full fee. I agree with eldragon becuse the seller needs the money more than the item in most cases
I hesitated before posting a reply to this thread. It seems to be a "hot" topic and I've been involved in one too many flame-wars in the past.
Let me just say this. Many of the arguments against passing along Paypal fees (beside the legal issue) use department stores and other business' as examples. Guess what. I'm not a department store nor am I an audio retailer. I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys music. The only reason I sell anything is to upgrade; and I bet that this is true of many Agon sellers. So, keep in mind next time you think someone is nickel-and-diming you that many of us are just individuals who are probably already losing money on the item you are buying.
I just had an experience where the debit card that I had previously used charge free (to seller or buyer) on PayPal is now considered a credit card. A seller denied my payment based on the fee charged to the seller. I have asked them for clarification from PayPal; they list a PayPal debit card as a category now. Are they a bank or credit card company? What do members think?
Wouldn't seller, that charges that %, be charged by paypal % on top of that? If product you are selling is $100, and buyer pays $103, paypal will charge % on $103, which will be higher than $100? What is the point?
When I buy gear I don't mind paying the extra 2.9% PayPal fee. I look at it as a big time saver - I don't have to stand in line at the bank, pay the fee for a Cashiers Check, then stand in line at the Post Office, find change for the parking meeter, pay to insure the package and pay for postage. And then wait in Agony to hear back from the seller once the funds are received.
Instead, I sit in the convenience of my office - log on to PayPal and just hit "send money" and its done.
Of course there is a value curve with PayPal use. If I am purchasing something which costs more than "x" dollars, I consider if it would be more cost effective to spend the time and energy to get a cashiers check and mail vs. absorbing the PayPal fees.
Guess it depends on how much you value your time.
For purchases under $1000 PayPal's 2.9% fee is a relatively "fair" price for the service - given the alternatives.
Bradz-He probably turned you down because you don't have that clk55 yet ;) But seriously I don't understand why a seller would turn you down, some people are weird(in particular in this hobby). ~Tim
My question is: Why do some sellers ONLY accept Pay Pal and not a money order or check? I was ready to buy some tubes from someone who only accepts Pay Pal and mentioned that I would rather pay by money order and was turned down! I didn't talk down the price either. That was truly BS.
My local Hifi shop charges me if I choose to use a credit card if it is for a pre-owned item at a giveaway price. I consider this to be perfectly fair – I want the best deal and the shop is trying to work with me. By contrast, if some bill-roll walks in to buy a 5000k piece and slaps down his card without haggling, no problem. Nothing said. The issue of CC fees would never be brought up.
Well, we all have our quirks and blind spots. As previously noted, I will buy only from sellers who ship COD. They don't wanna do COD, we don't do business, it's that simple. Interestingly, despite all the indignant sellers who got up on their hind legs the last time this topic came up, I've NEVER had a seller refuse a COD transaction, though lots of them say up front that they won't do it under any circumstances. I think it is a matter of building confidence in each other via phone or email. That and the fact that I agree to pay shipping both ways up front on items of any significant cost.
That's my quirk. PayPal is somebody else's quirk. My point is, if you want the gear then negotiate the price. I don't care if the seller wants to charge me for laundering his shirts. If the price is what I'm willing to pay, let the deal go forward, shirts and all. If it isn't what I want to pay, and we can't get together on a workable price, then PayPal fees and shipping charges and the phase of the moon have nothing to do with it.
When ebay began, it was a neat, clean, and simple way of putting (mostly) casual buyers and sellers in touch with each other. Now it is heavily influenced by dealers and pseudodealers and would-be dealers and know-it-alls of every ilk, plus enough rules, regulations, complications, and add-ons to gag a goat. Little wonder that more and more buyers make end runs around the whole process, merely using ebay as a means of contacting sellers, negotiating prices, pulling gear out of auctions, paying listing fees, closing the deal, and getting on with life.
Why must this all be so grim and serious? Are we not supposed to be having fun?
I've never used the c2it service, but I notice that they don't charge a fee on either end for credit card transactions within the US. I'd be curious to hear from folks that have some experience with their service and can compare it to PayPal.
If adding the PayPal option is solely for the convenience of buyers and so valueless or burdensome for the seller, why bother with the hassle?
Presumably sellers add the PayPal option to increase the size of their potential market to include those who don't have the cash to pay immediately or have an aversion to sending strangers large sums of cash. Presumably, this is to drive the maximum sales price. Some customers/buyers are just more expensive to deal with than others - I agree with a couple of comments that it is just a cost of doing business that most retailers recognize.
Having said that, I wholeheartedly agree that any seller has the right to charge whatever they want for whatever they have, including tacking on PayPal fees. Why not bill back any long distance charges for return phone calls, as well? Recognize, though, that it may turn off a subsegment of the market, such as Eldragon, with whatever implication that has for price you get for whatever it is you are trying to move. Given one off sales of high end audio, the implication is probably nothing. For most retailers, the implication is meaningful.
I'd remind you of various threads here and on AA about how some people react to the "attitude" of various high end dealers. The "tacking on of PayPal" fees potentially falls into the category of "attitude" for some.
For me, I can live with either alternative.
On a different subject - Eldragon - try the 1999 Abadia Retuerta Rivola. Quite good for around $10/bottle.
Eldragon- You are making me laugh here, calling all others cheapskates simply because you are to cheap to pay insignificant paypal fees, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. I collect them and I pay the fees if it is an item I want- and I am forced to pay via paypal, I much prefer wire transfer($25) or certified funds but in a pinch paypal is easy and cheap, deal with it or don't sounds like you are one of the only ones who feels that it is a huge injustice on there rights. I am sure the rest of the world is wrong :-\ ~Tim
I think most of you guys are WRONG! And out of spite, i wont pay your paypal fees, even for "deal of the century" (which i doubt any of you cheapskates will offer ) Still, who cares...now i need suggestion on good (cheap) red wine!
I find this thread very interesting and any feedback that will help me sell my gear better is good feedback. I am very suprised to see that paypal fees bother some people but its good to know.
As far as the legality goes I wonder what state law would take presetant. The state in that the product is comeing from or the state that the server is located in.
I guess I'm not impatient because I always pass on the 3% extra charge on something I buy, not because I find it morally objectionable or am worried about the legalities, but because keeping the cost down is a good thing. Even if you are getting a $5K amp for $2K, saving $60 is worth saving. If I'm really looking to streamline the process, I can even send the seller a personal check and tell them to wait until it clears - no time, no extra $$$ sending the payment.
I've always viewed the use of PayPal as being something that's extremely beneficial to the seller. It's also indisputable that the number of times (in 2002) that you pull out a cc and get charged more for using it is near zero - standard practice is that whatever the price is, you can pay however you like. Now it's true that on a large purchase you can try to negotiate a better cash price, but outside of PayPal, I can't remember the last time I was told there would be a surcharge for paying with plastic. So, again, not because it's unethical, immoral or illegal, but just because protocol exists that says payment form shouldn't alter the price, I have never absorbed the PayPal charges.
Now, if somebody posts a Wadia 861 CD player that I've been searching for and lists a price of $2K and says the only way they'll sell is if Payment is by PayPal with buyer absorbing the cost, I'll pay it in a heartbeat because it's still a great deal. In essence, though, all that's saying is that the negotiating is pre-made - there's no sense in trying to negotiate down because the price is already so good, completely on the seller's terms, that you either hit the offer or move on.
I always find it interesting which threads grow to be the longest - I don't think I could predict which ones will catch fire with any accuracy. -Kirk
If you don't want to pay the fees then send a money order. If as a seller I had to pay the fees then I simply wouldn't offer it as an option.
Eldragon, I am confused as to why you are so offended by this and your comparison to sitffing a waitress on a tip makes no sense to me.
I am certainly not going to spend hundreds of dollars on paypal fees for someone who is to impatient or financially unable to send a check.
So I agree that in the context of the classified and auction sales iit is an added cost much like shipping.
..... and really aren't there truly DISGUSTING things that you could better spend your time spouting off about. All this fuss about 3% on toys.........
What a silly notion. Adam Smith (if he were inclined to read Audiogon forum posts) would turn in his grave.
If you subtract any consideration of what the buyer gets in exchange for payment of ANY fee (which, as rational maximizers, is an analysis all buyers perform before parting with their money), then EVERY payment becomes merely a seller's convenience and (under this rationale) morally objectionable.
Since the premise of EVERY purchase is that the buyer will have possession and use of the item for sale, and it's the seller's obligation to make sure the buyer gets possession, why not object on the same principle to buyers paying shipping charges? After all they just finance the seller's convenience by making the buyer pay to relieve the seller of the obligation to deliver the item personally.
By the way, I have read all the posts, and I have to agree with Sean.
Amen Sean, well said. I usaully do auctions and sometimes these auctions end at a price lower than I paid as a dealer. We're talking brand new gear, deal of the century kind of thing going on here, and I still have the buyers in some instances cry about the 3% fee I add to the total for paypal. They will even argue over $5.00 frt. if they think I'm too high on the frt. Never mind that they are getting a $5000.00 amp for $2000.00. I beleive you could give away gear with the only catch being that they pay frt. and some would still gripe and cry.Like Sean said it's yor choice for the convenience. You tip the pizza del. boy, don't you? Audiogon is all about getting good deals and info. that 5 yrs. ago was unheard of and now that we have such a great source, some are always going to be as we say in the South "looking a gift mule in the mouth"!Keep on griping and see how audio life is without Audiogon or Paypal!
You apparently haven't read my previous post. But regardless, i still believe that anyway you look at it, practice is DISGUSTING! Something like 'stiffing' your waitress at your favorite restaurant.
5) Pay the fees if you want to use a convenient service ( Paypal ) and take advantage of another convenience ( credit card ) at the same time
7) The seller is happy as they don't have to sit around and worry about whether "Customer X" has actually put payment into the mail
8) The buyer is happy because the package is on the way to them within 24 - 48 hours since payment has arrived instantaneously
OR
9) Put the deal on hold until you can send out an acceptable form of payment, which you may have to pay for anyhow ( money order, cashiers check, wire transfer, postage, etc.. )
10) Wait for for the funds to arrive at the seller's
11) Wait for the seller to deposit said funds
12) Wait for the funds to clear
13) Twiddle your thumbs in anticipation for a few days while all of this takes place
14) Be glad when all is said and done, about two weeks or so later.
If paying 3% to secure a product that you want in a convenient and timely manner is going to break you, you are in the wrong hobby. Not only that, why should the seller be penalized for making it faster and more convenient for you to pay him ? There is NO reason for a seller to be penalized for this payment option UNLESS they specifically state that this is the only form of payment that they will take. It is no longer a "payment option" under those circumstances and they should absorb such fees since that is how they demand payment. Otherwise, it is the BUYER'S "choice" to pay in this manner and the BUYER should pay the fees involved. The seller is not making you pay that way, so why should they take the loss for giving you the option of making payment convenient for you ???
Either pay the fees for services rendered ( Paypal IS a service and has operating expenses like any other business ) and shut up OR get off your duff, do the leg-work yourself, sit around for a few extra days and save PART of the fees that you would have otherwise had to pay. How hard is that to understand ??? Sean >
PS... Sorry if this came across as disrespectful, but i can't understand someone pissing and moaning about a service or option that they don't HAVE to make use of.
PPS... It was Amoco that started the cash / credit price structure. Being a vendor that has to pay an outside source to process credit cards, i can understand why they did it. The consumer, who has little idea of what it actually takes to operate a business and accept credit cards, whined loud enough that laws were passed making it illegal. Of course, guess who lobbied for these laws ? If you said the credit card companies, you might be right. People weren't using their cards as much, so Visa / Master were losing money and took steps to protect their business interests. The loser in all of this ? The consumers who pay cash, since retailers had to raise prices across the board to cover the fees that are charged to them when someone pays by credit.
Don't you love it when someone pay-pals you a few grand but they don't include a verified address :^( I think everyone knows what could happen if you ship to a non-verified address? It's a crazy little thing called chargeback. You know, that's when they rip the money out of your account one-day with no rhyme or reason. And guess what? You have know recourse. Try not to make that mistake more than once. Always ship to a verified address.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
