Taller works for me. Look at my system page.
Room Ceiling Height for 2 channel listening - is taller always better?
I am planning a custom 2 channel listening room. Current dimensions are 17’W x 23’L x 16’H with a symmetrically sloping ceiling. No windows. The room will be accommodating Paradigm Persona 9H speakers, but I’d like it to be flexible enough to be well suited for most other options (i.e. big horn speakers, tall Wilsons, etc)
Is 16 feet too tall? Is that violating a "golden rule" room ratio (I already know it is, but is that a big problem)? Bigger is generally better, but is a taller ceiling always better? Is this too much volume for a 2 channel listening room, even with large loudspeakers? I do plan on adding acoustic treatment throughout the room to handle reverb & reflections.
Other thoughts: I am planning on 2x6 studs and standard insulation+luan+5/8" drywall. I know that 3/4" plywood is considered better sounding at only 8x the cost of drywall. I know some would advocate for 2x8 or 2x10 or 2x12 studs, but that pretty much requires using expensive insulation (at least spray foam) or some fancy carbon diaphragmatic helmholtz solution that might cost as much or more as this room :) I know that structural rigidity is important to reduce resonances. I’m also not a billionaire and am trying to balance practicality with performance.
Flooring details: planning on sound deadening underlayment, carpet, and a throw rug on top. Should I do hardwood with a throw rug on top? If I do carpet, what acoustical carpet underlayment is recommended?
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To a point. Look at an Amphitheater. Treat the room as much as you can stand it and go from there. 71Hz for an 8ft ceiling, 65Hz for 9ft ceiling, 56Hz for 10ft ceiling etc As long as you know your room and that 50% of what you hear is because of the room, you're ahead of a lot of folks. Ground up. Now the sub (s), then the speakers. If you had 20 foot vaulted ceilings untreated vs 8ft treated, you would last about 20 minutes.. DSP would overheat trying to fix that mess.. LOL Regards |
congrats on your project. very exciting. i went through that 18 years ago in 2004. since then i have made changes to my room as i learned more. but i’m happy with the fundamental ’bones’ of my design. you can see pictures of it on my system page. my room is in my barn, not my house. so i could go nuts, which i did. it’s a room inside a room. my clean-sheet-of-paper purpose built room is 21’ x 29’ x 11’. don’t get hung up on the golden ratio. it does not scale up and down. acoustics are not that predictable. so many variables in construction. 16’ ceilings will add lots of volume and make it much more challenging to pressurize. but a larger space has more potential for energy if you are up to the task of figuring it out. your speakers won’t ’hook-up’ as effortlessly where the bass feels physical. besides that that height will multiply the challenge of busy reflectivity. more surface area to develop reflections. the surfaces are farther from your ears, but harder to tune. and tune you will, as you learn your room. look at a concert hall with those high ceilings but you see diffusion everywhere to control reflections. that is what you will be dealing with. small room acoustics and domestic speakers are not voiced for ceilings that tall. if you were using horns or dipoles where the sound is more directed straight forward or back that is less a challenge. my room is oval shaped, so no right angles. lots of built in diffusion. built in floor to ceiling bass traps in the rear of the room. it’s cocooned in two layers of 5/8ths sheetrock, with a 6 inch concrete floor. everything is built on top of that cocoon. in the front of the room i added Quietrock 545 (with a layer of 3/4" finish grade ply over the top of that) after 6 years in my room to more fully establish room boundaries for bass hook-up. in my perfectly symmetrical room, i had one side (outside structural wall) with different bass than the other side. the Quietrock equalized the sides. my front 1/3rd is hardwood over concrete, the rear 2/3rds carpet.....think concert hall stage/audience. |
I am interested in the feedback you get here as I’m in the very early stages of designing a new listening space. In particular, my room will also feature a vaulted ceiling so am trying to figure out how to do this in a way that doesn’t create problems. If the room I am designing is 18 wide by 23 long what would the optimal maximum height of the ceiling be? I can stop the upward slope at a variety of points and come straight across with a flat section—what height would be optimum given the width and length specified? BTW the speakers will be on the short wall positioned about 4-5 feet into the room. I want the room to work with both dynamic and dipole electro stats. Any feedback is welcome that will hopefully apply equally to the OP. OP: To your assumption that bigger is generally better I had a friend with lots of experience say this “big room, big problems” to which my experience would largely agree. I’m trying to go as big as I can without losing intimacy in the space or the ability to drop some nice Sound Labs in that will have plenty of room to breath! |
A friend of mine is in the custom install business and I have helped him with setting up audio systems in various rooms. The most problematic rooms were those with extremely tall ceilings and rooms with large open spaces. It is hard to get decent bass in high ceiling rooms and the sound becomes thin and lacking in weight. In his own listening room, this friend went through the trouble of installing a structure to lower his 16' ceiling. I would look to something in the 8'-11' range of height. |
It still boils down to treating that room for that issue. There is no getting away from the 8, 9, or 10 foot problems unless you're a horn guy (which kind of helps) and room treatment. Above 12 feet, lower the ceiling. Open floor plans get some roller panels and or heavy floor to ceiling acoustic theater curtains. You can open or close to dampen more or less. Regards |
16 and 17 are very nearly "square". Map it out, you will find the 16 ft modes are right beside the 17 ft modes. Sloping ceiling will distribute those, but focus higher frequencies. Everything you do has a different effect at different frequencies. One benefit of the high ceiling, the extra space can be used to hide as many and as large bass traps as you like. Mike did something like this in his room, only with side walls and cabinets that are angled to disguise the traps built in behind. If I was doing mine again I would go hardwood, because rugs can be more easily moved around and changed. Carpeting wears and then one day you are looking at removing the whole system to replace the carpet.
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I built a new house with a custom room. I used online calculator as a guide and did 18 wide 26 long 11 height. I talked to an acoustic company and they recommended 13’ ceiling or higher which I could not make work with the house design. I tapered the ceiling and 1 wall 6” to avoid parallel walls. All corners are 2’ 45 degrees. The goal was to avoid standing waves and it did, the bass response is very even throughout the room. But lots of reverb/echo. A hand slap takes almost a full second to die down. My next project is proper treatments to tame the reverb without over damping. To answer your question - yes go taller but you may want to talk to an acoustic expert before you hang the drywall. I wish I would have as it would of saved time and money and avoid another construction project. |
Room height must be balanced with length and width, but the golden ratio is not the way. The science has been done at the School of Acoustics, University of Salford. They ran a hundred thousand simulations and found that most rooms are bad, a third are OK, and about 2% are good. The classic ratios were all bad, IIRC. Rigidity is your friend. Otherwise the walls flex with the bass signal, out of phase, and highly distorted. I’m with Mike Lavigne on Quietrock 545, which I used. It’s more than an inch thick, 5 layers of drywall, and a layer of sheet steel. But it’s damned expensive. Plywood is a minimum. IMO Good luck! |
I worked for a large building materials manufacturer for years, we provided acoustic solutions and designed acoustic materials, acoustic room solutions, we had a testing lab and even an anechoic chamber. Don’t get too hung up on the 2X4, 2X6, 2X whatever.... Only consider that if you are trying to keep sound from entering adjacent rooms. If that is what you are after, I would build a staggered stud (look it up) wall, maybe even use a resilient channel or "hat" channel to isolate the drywall from the studs, calk around everything and fill the cavitity with fiberglas. You don’t need to use anything expensive, just use a plain fiberglas. R-11 ill work fine. Sound is controlled by absorbing it (insulation), blocking it (that is why people use drywall and double layers of drywall) reflect it, (room dimensions, hard surfaces, diffusers). The key is using a combination of these to achieve the desired results. In a large room the sound will reverberate and you will get unwanted "noise" created from it. that is when you want to use absorptive materials like curtains, carpet or even absorptive panels. Thicker acoustic wall panels will absorb lower frequencies better than thinner panels (think low frequency - large sound wave needs thicker material to absorb it) so size and thickness are important, you don’t want to just buy panels and hang them randomly, you could do more harm than good. A large room is ok if you can control the sound in the room. People use bass traps and diffusers to make the sound react differently in the room. Hardwood with rugs is a good idea because you can move rugs around and try different areas, types. Also... spray foam is not a good "insulator" of sound it is much denser than a typical fiberglas batt and could actually reflect sound more than absorb it. Use a combination of methods and play with varying types. It may take a while but you can get a good result. (minus testing the room for reverberation and calculating the amount, type thickness of material you need, that can get pretty expensive). |
5 layers of drywall, and a layer of sheet steel. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WOW. Some dedicated people here. I thought Dry wall was sheetrock? I learn something everyday.. Outside wall, thermal mat, 30lb felt, 5.5 of insulation with fire blocks, sound board, 3.5" of air space (this is the actual sound proofing the air space), vapor barrier, sound board, 5/8" fire rock. Seal all the drilled holes with expanding foam. Top and bottom and drilled holes between studs they all need to be sealed. Some like to use construction adhesive on the floor to pinning and drywall to sound wall. I used screws and galvanized double dip sinkers ONLY. I drove every nail in this house by hand and never used green sinkers or guns including the roof and my kitchen cabinets. From the drywall out has nothing to do with the drywall in. What is in the wall is for the neighbors or the people in the rest of the house. I like heavy floor to ceiling acoustic theater curtains. I like suspended acoustic panels with lighting too. 8 X 8 of panels in front of the listening position at about 10 feet in height. Warehouse set ups are the most fun, 220/240 480 3 phase is nice too. The bass is a little tricky though. :-) Home made 14" sonotube bass traps. The guy must have had 30 of those things 12 foot tall with 1-4" holes. Panels for walls open back. I gotta' find a warehouse, I would love a conservatory type environment if it wasn't so hard on the finish and the electronics.. No static issues.. LOL Orchids, Century plants and for the clean up carnivorous plants, for smash and grab wannabes. Dip weeds.. Merry Christmas Every ONE.. My Vanilla is almost ready to put bows on. One more shake, I wish you could smell the different kinds.. The ones with the 50 year old Cognac/Kettle one and Madagascar A stock vanilla beans. The ginger bread with goat buttermilk and black molasses. What a combo.. You should see the silly dog.. Summersaults for ginger bread.. LOL The rabbit, kale and carrots, go figure. Regards |
I am currently building a room in my basement. My room is smaller,15x161/2x71//2 when finished. I had the room designed by an acoustician. I am using safe and sound rock wool for the insulation and 2 inch rigid fiberglass panels inside the room. There is NO drywall inside the room. I’m told I will need zero extra panels inside the room. The room walls are partially concrete and partially out in the open. The open areas are 2x6 with a sandwich of drywall and mass loaded vinyl on the outside. I also used liquid nails when building the walls to add to the rigidity. I agree with consulting a professional. Good luck! |
Some interesting thoughts and approaches but I’m not sure folks are trying to solve or prevent the same problem. Not sure about the OP but I don’t care a bit about reducing the ability of the sound from bothering neighbors or my own family—I don’t want a soundproof listening chamber. What I do want is a room that will allow my system to perform optimally with minimal to no use of additional treatments. If those with experience can chime in with thoughts on room dimensions with vaulted ceilings and construction tips and materials I should consider employing that would be great. |
Glue and screw. No nails. Elastomeric glue - it never quite dries, always flexes, but very slightly. Chemlink makes good ones - I used 2 cartons of BuildSecure and 12 cartons of M1, IIRC. Quietrock 545. I backed mine with 3/4" Baltic birch on the back and front walls. Another thing - ventilation. Although Chemlink stuff is really safe, your cabinetmaker might not be as careful, and the adhesives and finishes can off-gas for years. It took a year of airing out, for my room to be habitable with the windows closed. And paint - low VOC all the way, no other way. For a small room, consider high gloss paint - makes the room seem larger. If you get really anal-retentive, you can connect and ground all the steel in all the Quietrock 545. Bare tinned 20 AWG is fine, you don’t expect much current. Your dimensions may be critical. I built my whole room to 1/8" tolerances and results are spectacular. Do build in your bookshelves and record shelves. Don’t build in any significant cavities for a big turntable or whatever. I did, and it’s a mistake. Fortunately, a recoverable mistake. And try to get time off to work with your contractor. Mine was a prince - whatever I wanted, he did. And you’d be amazed at what comes up when you’re putting up plywood. Access. Conduit for all electrical. If you will ever have an air bearing turntable, now’s the time to put in conduit. If you will ever have a central power supply, now’s the time to put in conduit. Conduit, conduit, conduit. Lighting. Some LED based lights produce EM interference. Detect and avoid. Better, use halogen or incandescent. Good luck! |
Thanks for the tips! I used liquid nails every where so far. The only nails used were on the ends of boards because I never thought the ends took a screw very well. I’m doing the work myself nights and weekends. Been about two months now! I’m sticking to the design as close as I can. Thanks for the lighting tip too! I have dimmer switches as well. I’ve read they can be a problem so I’m crossing my fingers on that. I’m looking forward to the result. Regards |
Looking at the sheet cost of Quiet Rock 545 and wondering if it might make sense to use it where first sidewall reflections would occur and maybe in a checkerboard pattern on the sloped portion of the vaulted ceiling. Any thoughts on a mix and match approach? Also, final dimensions of the room are shaping up to be 27’ 6” x 17’ 3”. The ceiling height is as yet unknown. |
I took advice from the marketing dept of Queietrock - and found myself talking to a senior executive with technical knowledge. Be sure to tell them what you want - sound quality inside the room, or quiet outside. Also, how intrusive could the outside be? You don't want to be listening to Waltz for Debbie and Dishwasher. If you're looking for a cost-effective alternative, consider 2 inches of clean dry sand. In the walls, weighing down the ceiling. Engineers call that pre-loading. I did that in the home theatre, and it's even more effective that Quietrock. But I couldn't make that work in the new room, so went with Q 545 instead, and was not disappointed. |
I have used regular vinyl on walls years ago and it peeled the drywall when they (family) took it off. I looked at a supplier that sells vinyl for walls and it seemed quite expensive. It will be up for a long period of time I assume but I wouldn’t want it to peel drywall if they decided to take it off. Thanks for your help! |
It happens only when you don't know how to apply it. Its yur fault actually who applied it in a wrong way ( bad adhessive gum) etc. |