REL Vs SVS for 2 channel music listening

Since I started this thread, I have moved to a dedicated listening room with room treatments and bass traps. I'm still using the Antmode to calibrate my sb2000 sub (still only one). I'm thinking of moving up to a pair of sb3000's. The newer SVS has calibraion apps, I'm not certain if the SVS calibration would better my current AntiMode. 

@chisaz  Don't forget the mouthwash! : )

+1 on you post! Enjoyable read, to boot.

I’ve been missing out, a lot.

Try an REL, you’ll be shocked (in a good way).

wolf_garcia - You know, come to think of it, I now need to shave twice a day and can now dunk a basketball. 😉

RELs and another well made subs "charge the room" somehow and that makes things sound more real…but certainly the pebbles would be useful, especially in the bottom of an aquarium. Also, bass does improve you masculinity, and makes you slightly taller.

Didn’t want to add a sub to my two channel music system. I’m a real audiophile I thought. I like tubes and english loudspeakers I thought. I wear tweed and smoke a pipe I thought (not really). I’m not one of these home theater pagans who buy their equipment at big box stores - no, I’m a serious audiophile, I thought, who would rather poo poo such things and talk about room treatments and exotic cables and what kind of distilled water I should wash my vinyl LPs in. Besides, I don’t need no bass to prove my masculinity.

Then I inserted an REL S/5 SHO (hooked up at the high level connection with Kimber cables made for the REL) and OOOPs. I’ve been missing out, a lot. All of a sudden live albums came truly alive. Sure there was tight deep bass and the REL didn’t call attention to itself. What was the real shocker was what it did to the midrange and the soundstage of the overall system. Listening to live albums I was moved in to the concert hall with excellent seats - I was no longer sitting in my music room. Performances came alive. Try an REL, you’ll be shocked (in a good way). Then complain to me about the cost of the REL after you’ve dropped a couple of grand on StillPoints made out of unobtanium.

I’m ordered a rel 212 se. I’m going to pick up tomorrow and have a rel rep over next week for set up.  I think rel is best sub for 2 channel. It’s all about the blend with 2 channel. Will update y’all in 3 weeks. My speakers are gato FM6. From Denmark 

I’m ordered la rel 212 se. I’m goiing to pick up tomorrow and have a rel rep over next week for set up.  I think rel is best sub for 2 channel. It’s all about the blend with 2 channel. Will update y’all in 3 weeks. My speakers are gato FM6. From Denmark 

Also the word "quality" needs a qualifier like "good" or "mediocre" or "smelly."

Exactly. A TIC response to an audio expert :)

Exotic pebbles! Not sure how room treatments add bass…add a tuned tunnel to your room? Also the word "quality" needs a qualifier like "good" or "mediocre" or "smelly."

If you're not interested in quality sound spend your money elsewhere.

Actually, If I were interested in quality sound, I would not be buying a subwoofer to begin with. I would spend the money on room treatments, speaker placement optimization, and exotic pebbles. 

I leave my Antimode Cinema on all the time. It will turn on automatically if you plug it in. Power consumption is really minimal.
I don't believe REL are the only manufacturer of good subwoofers for music, however good they are.

Nothing beats REL for audio. If you're not interested in quality sound spend your money elsewhere.

Another +vote for REL.
Happy Listening!

I just received the Antimode 8033ii yesterday and hopefully be able to set up today or tomorrow sometime. Do you leave the antimode on all the time?

Calloway how do you you have your RELs connected through Neutrik? Which REL is connected to what speakers and where do you have them placed? 

Calloway... 
I have an S5 as well, and chose it over the 212 SE.
1. Recently I've been wondering how much I am missing with the S5 vs the 212 SE.
2. I'm thinking one of the upgrades this year is dual subs, similar to yours. 

Thank you in advance for any response... 

I have an older REL R 305 and its a nice sub.  I auditioned new speakers recently and paired it with an SVS and it was no slouch 

I added an REL S5 about a year ago to my Tidal Contriva Diacera SE speakers and that really improved the room bass but then I recently added an REL 212 SE ....and kept the S5 for the lt side of the room and now the whole presentation is magical.i will,at some point,replace the S5 with another 212SE but for now, all is great.one of the REL VPs came over to help with the room positioning which save me a great deal of trial and error.

I believe I have them dialed in about the best a single sub can do for my space. I am going to purchase a second in january/ I have it to where sound seems to lean to 53% left and 47% right (placed behind left speaker.). I set up with mono sources. Really, I could live with it. I would say a general listener would not notice.

I'm amazed how the sub really adds a presence to listening. For my taste, the bass should sound cozy and warm. The sub adds that along with some punch. You can really feel Neil Pearts bass drum and the moog bass pedal on Moving Pictures by RUSH. The heartbeat on Dark Side of the moon has a little tiny bit of stomp to it (which i like). For now I have it dialed in. I may do some more changing later on...but I really like the results thus far 

I got the SVS hooked in and I really love it. I'm still going to do some fine tuning position wise. I have it 95% there but ran out of time yesterday. BTW, the SVS RCA cables seem to be well built and really nice (i purchased seperate)

willemj, thanks I will take a look

Assuming this is about an Antimode 8033. It will only equalize automatically. You insert it in the signal chain, plug in the supplied microphone and then start the measurement. It will generate a series of loud successive sweeps from very low to somewhere around 200 Hz and after a few minutes you are all set (you can increase the listening area with multiple measurements of you want to). This is done with just the subwoofer - you leave the amplifier and the main speakers off. After that you turn on the amplifier and you can start adjusting the subwoofer level and crossover frequency. These you do manually and either by ear, or by measuring in REW, just like you would do without an Antimode.
There are two current models of the Antimode 8033, the Antimode Cinema and the AntimodeS-II. For most people the cheaper Cinema model is perfectly fine (forget its inappropriate name), also for use with multiple (mono) subs. Do read the manual first before you buy, to see if you really need the more expensive model (I didn’t). In my case I had to connect it at speaker level at the amplifier side and at line level at the sub side, using an attenuating cable from amplifer to Antimode.
The whole process will not take more than say half an hour, is absolutely dead easy, and only requires that you read the manual carefully.

I’ve been using a couple of RELs I bought used (About 200 bucks each) that were, and are, fabulous sounding (Had to make a grill for the forward firing Q150e which was easy since it had the frame, but the other is down firing). Maybe the Q series was made better or something, but the Q108 II and Q150e are available here and there used and utterly worth it. I tighten the screws once in a while, and made Canare cables for ’em with angled Neutrik plugs, and join the leads inside AQ spades at the amp to drive both subs from speaker posts. I'm a multiple sub (at least 2) advocate, but one will work fine.

@aberyclark   Great on making the choice. I'd add a second sub when you are able to do so. 

Don't forget to treat yourself to an Antimode 8033 room eq as well.

Does the Antimode just control the EQ/DSP portion or does it adjust volume of sub as well? I'm thinking of picking one up at only $300 or so. From what I gather, I should set sub up as normal for best sound, THEN run the Antimode for auto eq, etc adjustments.

Don't forget to treat yourself to an Antimode 8033 room eq as well.

Well i ordered the svs sb2000.  An audiophile friend I trust told me the SVS blends really nice with 2 channel and i should buy another if all goes well.  So we’ll see. Ill report back once up and running

In very broad terms the larger the driver,  the deeper it will go and the louder it will play without distorting. Conversely in very broad terms, the smaller the driver the more dextrous it will tend to be but will not go as deep. If you take a look at the entire REL line-up,  I believe they have 9 subwoofers total. 

Part of the REL philosophy is to find the subwoofer match for your speaker system and listening area. I'd suggest heading over to a shop that carries both SVS and REL and listen to them in a 2 channel system. 

The Sumiko's actually look like nice subs. Yes, they seem to be a REL copycat (Sumiko use to distribute REL).

Is there any advantage of a 12 inch woofer vs 10 inch? The Rel t/9i has a 10 inch woofer 300 watt amp. The SvS has a 12 inch woofer with 500 watt amp. 

Rel makes fine subwoofers, no doubt. They also look good, but are relatively expensive.
For a while their unique selling point was that they connected at speaker level, and without a high pass filter for the main speakers. Hence their typical low pass crossover point had to be and was relatively low, with as little impact on the main speakers as possible.. These days, many other subs can do the same.
To be honest the sound quality of a sub is largely determined by the room. 'Speed' for example is an acoustic property and not as some seem to think a driver issue. Just look at REW waterfall graphs. Room modes are a nasty problem, only really solved by the combination of multiple subs and room eq.

I have a REL S5 and couldn’t be happier with it. When I purchased my REL a few months back I asked similar questions as you and considered the SVS as well. In the end I learned that one of a sub’s most important responsibilities in sound reproduction is to create a sense of space. The REL’s drivers are very fast and integrate seamlessly with my PSB T3’s and help to create an enormous and well integrated sound-stage. I love what it does with 2 channel music as well as movies. REL's philosophy and approach is a little different than other speaker manufacturers. I'd suggest going on Youtube and searching under REL subwoofer. Find a video where John Hunter, CEO and Chief Designer at REL talks about the REL philosophy. There are several very good ones.

Good luck with your purchase.

Hi David,

No experience with Longbow but it also gets its signal from the hi-level Speak-on cable from the amplifier's outputs and then transmits the signal wirelessly to compatible REL (their highest end) subs, so the benefit of the REL design should be retained. 

I can appreciate eliminating the constraint of the input cable for more flexible sub placement (although the sub's power cord could still be a possible constraint) but IMO it is a major oversight not to include a wireless remote function to adjust the sub from the listening position. Also, it is unclear if it can be used with multiple subs, but I can't see why not if both have a wireless receiver module.

Dave 

@dlcockrum  and @aberyclark 

Any thoughts on the Longbow wireless delivery system vs using the Speakon wired connector?

@aberyclark  back to the beginning, most music doesn't have both heavy and tuneful bass at the same time. Yes, there is plenty of music with heavy bass, example- blue man group, but is often electronic generated bass.  So the question becomes are you looking for chest thumping bass for this type of music ( for which ported will work fine) or loud and powerful bass guitar, bass drum and organ music ( as examples)in other words( tuneful bass). If it's tuneful bass, then high passing to the mains, digital bass management, willingness to relocate the sub to the best sounding location  and spending at least $1k or more are probably needed.  To test this out, buy the cheap Svs and then a sealed rel, rythmik, psa, to name a few and see if you notice a difference and then send the "loser" back. 

Dave thanks for advice. RELs are still being considered. REL recommended the S3 or the T/9i for my set up

Actually, many of the plate amps on Rythmik subs contain binding posts that take the output from a power amp (high-level signal), using the amp as it's source. The ones that don't are those that contain XLR inputs---the XLR2 and XLR3 model amps. Buyers are given the choice of plate amp models. All the Rythmik amps also contain RCA input jacks, for those preferring to use the low-level signal from a pre-amp as the source. 

I wonder how many of you that are dissing or recommending other than REL have heard a REL Sub-Bass system properly set up in a good two-channel system with full-range loudspeakers?

RELs are not designed to work as fixes for speakers with poor bass response or with crossovers that alter the cutoff frequencies of the main speakers. They are designed to load the room and augment the bass response of the mains, therefore providing a lower and fuller low bass extension with more slam, as well as enhancing the soundstage size and sense of air around performers. Additionally, they can be used in out-of-phase mode to help alleviate room bass node issues.

AFAIK, they are the only sub system (other than the Sumiko knock-offs) that use a high-level signal from the amplifier’s outputs such that they see the same signal (and thus the upstream gear’s sound character) as the main speakers.

Although a few of the best "digital" subs outperform RELs in HT slam(movie explosions and such), nothing integrates better into a good two channel system than a REL unless it digitizes the signal and uses DSP to measure the room and alter the signal digitally. Even then, only the TOTL $$$ digitalizing subs better the RELs for seamless integration and positive sound enhancement of a two channel system.

REL has been around a very long time and there is a reason for that despite the higher price vs many newcomers...

Dave

"d2girls

12-09-2017 12:14pm

"Do you guys have any suggestions for a good sub just for movies? Don't want to add stereo subs or a single sub for music..."

VANDERSTEEN V2W


VANDERSTEEN makes two different subwoofer models: one with external crossover kit for 2-channel music  (V2Q) , and an AV/ HT unit with a LFE single cable input. (V2W)

For the V2W :  highly Recommended ..I have it along with a CASTLE CLASSIC ( a rebranded ATC sub)

In a direct A-B shootout at my home, it was a unanimous choice for the VANDY by all 4 listeners.

 If you know ATC, you know good they can be: they make them up to the $9K pricepoint for home use and multiples of that for commercial.

http://www.audioconnect.com/product/vandersteen-v2w-subwoofer/

http://www.soundstage.com/video/revequip/vandersteen_theater.htm

I believe jayctoy meant to say he bought a Rythmik F12G. The G designates the GR Research 12" paper cone driver, the aluminum-coned Rythmik version being named just F12. The aluminum-coned woofer is said to play louder than the paper-coned version before "breaking up", due to the greater stiffness of aluminum. Danny Richie of GR Research designed the paper-cone woofer because he feels paper has a more natural, organic timbre than aluminum, and that the paper's lower mass produces greater low-level resolution. When have you heard a sub talked about in those terms?! The Rythmik and GR Research subs are unusually good at music reproduction.

I just bought a Fg rhythmik sub sealed for music , design for tubes amps.$950 it’s very very good, Sbayne Agon member replaced his rel for rhythmik..,easy to use, people there were very knowledgeable....

I agree. I've had both. The ported sub was a bit "loose" or sloppy for music. Felt slow as well. Great for action movies where you want to feel the low rumble of a submarine, etc. The sealed unit sounded like more of an extension of the speaker woofer. 

A last thought on SVS (or any sub)...

Generally, ported’s okay for home theatre but sealed is better for music.
("generally" because there are probably exceptions)

thanks. Looks like most are pleased with SVS

I'm with @contuzzi @ricred1 @crwindy on the JL Audio. More musical.

But likely out of the OP's stated budget unless he/she can score a great deal used.

+1 regarding @crwindy 's post. Less is more. 

Since you seem to be leaning SVS, I second @yogiboy  's recommendation to go with the discontinued SB12 for $400. I'd double up. If you are going with one sub, then the Outlet PB-12Plus in Piano Gloss (with no damage) for $999 is another option.

Great! What kind of tips did they give you?

I also use the Zu Audio Omen Defs, I bought a SVS subwoofer a couple years ago a PB1000, on sale and a super low price. I had difficulty getting it to blend with the Zu speakers. I email SVS and receive a quick reply from the president of the company. Gary Yacoubian. He gave me his phone number and I gave him a call. I told him of my problem and he suggested I talk to the main engineer, so he patched me through to him.  After he listen to me describe my problem he gave me a few suggestions, after I implemented his suggestions I got the SVS dialed in for my two channel music. I thought that is real customer service.

I just put a JL E112 in with my new Vivid 1.5 speakers. I have them turned way down so you don't "hear" them, you just know that they are there. Very satisfied. I considered REL as well. Felt that the SVS was more of a home theater sub.

I've owned several SVS subs and think they are great for home theater. I wouldn't choose them for 2-channel. I prefer JL Audio. To my ears the JL Audio subs produce musical bass.