recommendation for speaker wire to soften the highs if possible
I would try single wiring them. Going to the bass/mid first then jumping to the tweeter. Once there you can play with the jumpers to the highs, using standard lamp cord or simply try a number of different wires available at a good hardware store. I think this will tell you if you need different speaker cables. |
I agree w shkong. The reason is most noise in any system come from noise on the ac power, whether from wall power or your components. You obviously get enjoyment/value from music. Bite the bullet now If you invest in a “balanced power” ac power product like an Equitech you give yourself a lifetime investment in better sound quality. Start shopping for used now and start saving! And read info on Equitech website. Knowledge is (ac) Power - pardon the pun ;( |
Although your problem could be related to speakers, room, or source equipment (I don't think it's the Monster cables), my recommendation to your original question is Acoustic Zen Satori speaker cables, and used Cardas Golden Cross interconnect. The AZ Matrix Reference II interconnect could also be a good option. |
Look, I have spent a ton of money on cables, so let me explain something. If you find a boutique brand of cable that sounds better than Western Electric/Delund, or Goertz (Goertz for speakers only), you are masking other issues. Goertz, if you don't use their zobels, can introduce problems, but if your running a monster amp, it's a go to. Basically those are neutral, and if you shoot for neutral throught your system, you'll immediately spot problems. If OTOH, Review X says product W is it, but it's really colored, but offset issues with the reviewer's (fill in the blank), your going to be trying to cure an issue which could be multiple issues. Since product W fixed the reviewer's issue, it may exacerbate a problem with your system and add problems of it's own. That's why, though it has taken decades to actually get to where I am content with my system, I finally gave up trying for synergy and went instead for neutrality in everything. It requires a sound basis, and then using the most neutral components, a lot of Teflon caps, lots of really good resistors, etc. Fortunately it doesn't mean thousand dollars worth of ICs and speaker cables! Save yourself a LOT of money, and a LOT of headaches, and do as many here have said, Western Electric or Delund's slightly improved version if you are not running lots of current, and Goertz 11 gage copper cable if you want to go the high power route. If it's not the cables, and you are sure it's not your equipment, try isolation transformers, my DAC was ear bleeding bright until I got a hospital grade isolation transformer. If that doesn't do it, call Don Sachs, he's more up on newer gear than am I, he can advise you as to what is the probable source, or you could just call him in the first place and perhaps save both time and money in the long run, not to mention frustration! |
@nasaman I can start a dissertation on how to use LTSpice to run simulation on how an LC filter strapped in parallel to an LCR load (speaker) will work to roll off high frequencies at which point by how much of a slope, or I can just suggest with about $10 investment you can get some caps from parts express and a few pairs of resistors, one can try them out for a binary search to get where one wants in terms of taming the harshness of the tweeter. The simplified guide is: The higher the value of the cap the earlier it will roll off, the lower the value of the resistor the steeper the roll off curve is. I know it is never as satisfying or confidence-building as spending thousands on cotton wrapped oil impregnated cables with a mystery box, but it does save some time. https://www.electrocube.com/resistor-capacitor-networks |
| Post removed |
Personally, I don’t believe a cable can effect the frequency response of a system, nor act like tone controls. When someone describes a cable as “taming the high end” to me it seems like he’s describing a room interaction problem with the speakers, a speaker shouldn’t naturally sound shrill unless it’s badly designed or is having some serious first point reflection issues. So basically, if you’re to believe these people, they are claiming that their cables are lowering the 2-5khz range by a few dB. I’m not a electrical or sound engineer or a scientist of any kind, but that just doesn’t seem logical or scientific to me. |
d2girls, cable has inductance, capacitance, and resistance. These are the 3 qualities used in electrical filters, it's what speaker crossovers use to separate frequencies, so unfortunately cables are very capable of distorting sound. That's why I use Duelund exclusively for interconnects. Western Electric used to be AT&Ts sole source for cables, and when wires were necessary for telephone communications people spoke to and fully understood each other from coast to cost using Western Electric (W.E.) designed cables, and Duelund has slightly improved upon it, likely due to improvements in the purity of the metals used, but regardless, they are the most neutral cables I have found. For speakers I am using W.E. because it's less expensive, and while I haven't A/B'd them yet, I have used Goertz for decades, nothing other than W.E. has been listenable. Mind you I have crazy revealing equipment and I run a full range driver, so what comes out of my amplifier does not go through a crossover, and it's amazing how much of a difference that makes! I have reworked many crossovers using V-Caps to by-pass larger caps, and replacing crappy resistors with Mills non-inductive wire wound resistors, but regardless how good the components are, you are still filtering the sound and trying to match drivers. Nothing beats a good full range driver IMO. Frankly Don Sachs talked me into trying it, he made my preamp so I knew that he knows what is what where sound is concerned. Before I bought the preamp we spoke extensively about component quality and such because I wanted to be sure that I wasn't going to regret buying his DS2 preamp... Anyway, cables absolutely impact the sound, though if your equipment is sufficiently colored, it's possible to mask that, at least to some extent. The more neutral your gear, the more obvious the differences between colored and neutral components. |
Geoffkait, good point. That's another reason I like Goertz speaker cables. Square wave response is a solid indicator of a component's ability to deal with transients, quick sharp sounds, such as cymbals. Western Electric cables and Goertz speaker cables were both designed by electrical engineers. This page shows the difference between Goertz and more normal cables to a square wave. http://www.bridgeportmagnetics.com/contents/en-us/d62_MI_AG_Speaker_Cables.html |
I see. I still stand by that if you’re hearing harsh and shrill top end from your speakers, it’s a room issue, most likely the first point reflection. i feel that using cables to tune the sound is a flawed way to approach tailoring your system. This is just my opinion. I’m not trying to say cables are not important |
I have about half a dozen speaker cables and every one of them sounds different. It’s just the nature of cables. A designer is going for what he/she thinks sounds best or can sound best for a variety of different systems. Since we all hear differently and our preferences are skewed all over the map, it’s impossible to build the perfect cable. All of mine measure fine and reviewers all like them but they all sound different so it’s not a flawed approach to try them, compare the differences, and settle on the best one for a particular system. I listen in the near field so my first point of reflection are my head and ears. I have the resolution of headphones without the drawbacks. It’s incredibly apparent that cables and even tweaks can have a profound effect on what I hear. Most times it’s closer to subtle but when the differences are summed, the results are not subtle. All the best, Nonoise |
Nonoise, "I have about half a dozen speaker cables and every one of them sounds different. It’s just the nature of cables. A designer is going for what he/she thinks sounds best or can sound best for a variety of different systems." True, that's why I like the cables engineers made in order to minimize such issues. |
@gunmetalzin, You didn’t mention whether the Ryan speakers are the R610 or the S610. But at least in the case of the S610 this figure apparently depicts the frequency response of the speaker under typical in-room conditions, for rooms in which a relatively small speaker such as that would be used. Given the modest downward tilt of that response, and given also the speaker’s 8 ohm nominal/6 ohm minimum impedance (which, everything else being equal, will tend to lessen sensitivity to speaker cable differences compared to speakers having lower impedances), and given also the room characteristics you stated in your 10-30-2018 post, my guess is that the root cause of the issue is upstream of the speaker cables. Erik_Squires and Sleepwalker65 have made good suggestions which could help to confirm that. And perhaps the experiments you indicated in that post that you intended to do have helped in that regard as well. I don’t think you’ve mentioned what you are using to stream Tidal into the DAC. If it is a laptop computer one thing I would certainly try, if you already haven’t, is running it with its battery, and unplugging its AC adapter from the outlet. And if it is a desktop computer I would turn it off, unplug it from the AC, and try using some other source, such as the digital output of a CD player. I’m envisioning that either the computer or its AC adapter may be introducing noise that finds its way into the DAC circuitry, either directly through the connection between the computer and the DAC, or via the power wiring, or as a result of a ground loop. In turn resulting in timing jitter at the point of D/A conversion (which could certainly be consistent with harshness in the highs), and/or intermodulation or other effects on analog circuitry. IME having an AC-powered computer connected to an audio system can often be bad news. In any event, though, as several others have indicated it would be preferable to determine the root cause of the problem, rather than band-aiding or compensating for it. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
So basically, if you’re to believe these people, they are claiming that their cables are lowering the 2-5khz range by a few dB.People mistake frequency response for time and phase errors. When rooms interact with time and phase errors it is entirely possible to have large perceived differences in the 2-5kHz range. Western Electric made cable for balanced circuits with extremely limited bandwidth. It was often difficult to understand a well know acquaintance until one had ’learned’ their voice over the telephone. Cables are no more a Band-Aid than an amplifier. It is possible to take the best of everything and make two systems, one of which will rip your face off and the other will put you to sleep. Put the systems in different rooms and both could be great. For the googlth time, specific product recommendations in fora like these are not worth the bits to transmit them. |
| Post removed |
I am not saying that Duelund Wire lowers the presence range by any amount of dB. I am saying it changes the tone and presentation so the upper mids and highs are more natural and real sounding. Less Hifi, electronic and forced sounding. No band aid here, just part of putting together a complete system that sounds right. |
I've said all along that it is likely an equipment issue. I had a similar issue with my DAC, and cleared it up with a reasonably priced hospital grade isolation transformer, that and Deulund cables, which are just good neutral cables, should be under $300 or so, and in many system would cost far less that trying new gear. YMMV |
Perhaps you are expecting more than the 610’s are meant to deliver. I often find myself increasing volume in an attempt to make my smaller speakers sound as immersive as my floor-standers. Before long, the soft dome tweeters start sounding stressed. The Ryans’ felt pad tweeter surround suggests to me that the tweeter section may already be working against its physical limitations. There is a reason some designers are moving toward lighter, faster metal domes (listen to berrylium), and AMT planars. Don’t laugh. Try a sub. It amazes me that just a little additional bottom end can tame perceived tweeter harshness. Caution: Make sure you visually hide/disguise the sw as much as you can before your spouse sees it. Use your imagination to make it more acceptable (a flower stand or sculpture base). At least throw a tablecloth over it to let the sound work its magic unseen Good Luck, and call the folks at Ryan. |
