Raven Audio Nighthawk

@robertcropdust I look forward to hearing your opinion.

Oz

Millercarbon has caught me at it again...I stand accused of hyperbole! (All in good humour) May I really be honest with you? The Blackhawk is really Waaayyyyy better. Since I've owned both the Nighthawk and Blackhawk I should know! The tone and timbre of the Blackhawk is stunningly beyond Nighthawk. I submit the following experience as evidence.  We've all experienced when a new piece of kit takes the sound quality up a notch where maybe every other piece of media sounds different/better. So far, this upgrade has transformed the quality on EVERY piece This is waaayyy different. I am now eagerly literally going through my entire LP and CD collection (will take a while) and relistening to everything. Each LP and CD (so far) have revealed major improvements. Many of my LP's are not the best recordings, but the Blackhawk has caused me to pull them out and relive afresh old friends in an amazing surprising way. I have yet to be disappointed! Even Antonino Carlos Jobin LP's have thrilled again.   

Looks like from the Raven web pages and manual , each of the three versions run 12AT7 & 12AU7 preamp tubes so in that regard NOS is not an option solely for Osprey. The power tubes are 6L6GC which again one would expect the same NOS tubes, if desired ,would be an option in all 3; that is unless the Osprey requires the 7518A variant of the 6L6GC . The Osprey comes with the 7518A variant. The Osprey is autobias, the others are self bias

I should have mine Thursday, shipped out today. 

I was pretty close to getting one of these last year and so was digging into it pretty good until finally thought let's wait and see and maybe go Reflection. Anyway, can't remember the source if it was from their website, owner's manual (read them all on-line) or talking with James but pretty sure the news was the Osprey is the same in terms of parts but does use a different circuit that enables both the biasing that gives the few extra watts as well as the flexibility to run different tubes. The difference in power is insignificant but the ability to run a wide range of tubes is not. Especially not with Dave and his ability to guide you through the various NOS tubes he has in stock. 

Thanks Oz and best of luck.
Charles 

Not sure. I doubt the transformers are different because both amps weigh the same according to the specs.

@ozzy62,
Are there upgrades in the output transformers and power supply (Increased capacitance reserve for example?) when  going from the Blackhawk to the Osprey? These are two areas that would definitely make a noticeable difference. 
Charles 

Yeah I wish I could hear them side by side. So if the Osprey knocks it out of the park, I'll never know if the Blackhawk wasn't really just as good. But at least this way I am buying the most expensive amp they sell that I am willing to buy. I don't think I'm a buyer for the Reflection @ 15K. And James is pretty adamant that they probably won't fill in that gap because the Avian amps are so good.

Cool, thanks for that info. I have an original version Blackhawk and for a few months have been debating....do I upgrade?

And if so, do I get the latest Blackhawk 3.1 or invest the extra $$ into an Osprey 3.1. Still undecided.

Well the extra power is something that I don't need, but is nice to have "just because". And I understand that Raven is able to better balance the output tubes in the Osprey to match perfectly. I can only imagine the result is better sonically, even if only a little. James didn't try to hard sell me on the Osprey, but sort of led me down that road. And I was a willing participant.

Oz

@ozzy62 

What were the factors that led you away from the Blackhawk to the Osprey?

Charles, God you really are insufferable. If you don't like it then do like I do when I see your name, and don't read it. For your own sake though please please please do try and develop a sense of humor.

The beauty of going Osprey, it opens the door Dave Thompson's stock of NOS tubes. I am not into tube rolling. But only because it is such a crapshoot. With an Osprey you have access to Dave and his knowledge of tube selection. There may not be anything like this anywhere else. I'm sure you learned talking with James they can talk you through any changes that may be needed to run some of these tubes. If that is what you have in mind, well good for you!

@millercarbon,
I’m in no position to "rule" on anything concerning this thread or forum and nor would I want to. This is an open forum discussing audio/music topics so it’s subjective by default (And that’s perfectly fine). There are many knowledgeable and experienced contributors here and I’m grateful for their presence.


Given the quality and diverse audio experiences shared by participants there are going to be differences of opinions and perspectives. In my opinion this is good. I can understand one’s enthusiastic support for favorite ( In some cases anticipated expectations) products owned that perform well.

I just find the redundant -monotomy of posting of the same brands pointless after a while. So for me this is an example of hyperbolic posting. Again , this is just my observation that I chose to express openly here. By all means people are free to post what they champion. Some here will applaud this approach and others will grow weary. At this point most of us get it, Raven and Tekton. I’ll say it again, home audition of audio products is the best way to judge them (When this option is available). What alternative method is superior to actuality hearing a product?

As mentioned earlier differences of reactions and perspective is the expected result on an open forum such as Audiogon represents.
@ozzy62 congratulations and I believe the higher level intergrated amplifier makes the comparison to your fine separate components even more compelling.i truly anticipate your listening impressions.
Charles

ozzy62 look forward to your impressions
+2 Charles, it never ends

+1 Charles, I also am looking forward to your impressions of the Raven integrated vs. your separates.

@ozzy62,
Personally I think you would be happy with the Blackhawk but I commend you for the upgrade to the Osprey.
I believe you are going to be even happier ;-)

After a long conversation with James Connell yesterday I have decided to change my order from the Blackhawk to the Osprey.

Oz

Sweet. So nice to be proven right.

A lot of the difference between the amps is their bespoke Raven caps. These types of upgrades are always worth it,

Proving yet again it is possible to figure out what is going on without having to bring it home first.

But, could we tone down the hyperbole? Is it really, "WAAYYY better"? Are you sure it isn’t just way better? Can we get a ruling from Charles or whoever is officiating on hyperbole?

That’s a joke, boy. https://youtu.be/EVAdt5bH2tE?t=8

I have owned both the Nighthawk AND Blackhawk. Had Nighthawk almost a year then traded up to Blackhawk. Almost didn't make the change because I honestly didn't believe it could get better (law of diminishing returns theory). I WAS COMPLETELY WRONG. The Blackhawk is WAAYYY better (in my system). The $$$ difference is about $800. Never has $800 been better spent. My cassettes sound like vinyl quality, my vinyl now attains CD dynamics, my CD's are wowsa real shocker clear and lifelike deep and wide. (With a cheapo Oppo even. My Yamaha S2100 is in the hospital, had a stroke I think) Get the Blackhawk I'd say. Very much worth the difference.

@ozzy62,
As with other posters here I’m interested in your listening impression of the Raven Blackhawk. Your situation is potentially very informative. You currently have both a highly regarded preamplifier and tube power amplifier. So it  is intriguing as to how a respected intergrated amplifier sounds compared to two respected separate components as the only variable in a familiar audio system. This is more meaningful than repetitive hyperbole.
Charles

Raven isn't exactly entry level. Kind of like saying the Cayman is an entry level car. For Porsche? Sure. Compared to other cars? Dream on. Same here. There's tons of reviews and comments comparing these to much more respected and expensive amps. I suspect you will be like the typical first time Porsche owner, marveling how "just another car" can be so darn much fun to drive. 

One of the things that concerns me is this. A lot of the reviews of these entry level integrated amps are from people who were already using budget friendly equipment. I'm not sure how the Avian amps can match up against higher tier amp/preamp combos. I guess I'll find out before long.

Oz

Looking forward to an update once Ozzy and Robert get their units. If I can negotiate a lower return fee, I may still go for it.

I love my Fisher and Scott gear, but even restored you have to get service occasionally. Really want a newer more maintenance free piece.

@Glupson Music Direct is 60 days no restock and Audio Advisor is 30 days no restock. Buyer pays return shipping. PrimaLuna is 60 days, BUT if you return a second item then it is store credit. Sounds like a good policy. MD and AA especially carry a lot of lines and do a lot of volume, it may be easier for them to absorb it. The advantage of PrimaLuna / Upscale Audio is that I can drive there. I’ve gotten tubes from them and been to audio society meet-ups there. Good outfit, and the PrimaLuna’s I’ve seen are built like tanks. Just didn’t work in my buddy’s system for one reason or another.

I’ve heard that Raven’s communication and service is outstanding, but I just can’t pull the trigger if I might be out $500.

Ozzy62 ....My order was placed 3-3-21. 

@robertcropdust when did you place your order?

My Blackhawk is supposed to ship this week. I literally had my credit card in my hand for a prima Luna on the west coast but the salesman had me on speaker and I couldn’t understand half of the conversation very frustrating and repetitive.......so I started researching other options.......I’ve had very good communication with raven both phone and email. I hope this amp works for my corner horns and I’m a happy camper. I do understand a restocking fee but 7% is a little tough to swallow compared to others free shipping and returns. Fingers crossed. 

"45 DAY RISK-FREE GUARANTEE"

It is risk-free. For Raven more than for buyer.

According to Raven website, 7% is modest restocking fee. What restocking fees do comparable outlets charge?

It may be someone learned who has plenty of experience as well. I still think 7% is steep in today’s competitive environment. When you have other outfits like PrimaLuna/Upscale Audio doing returns with no restock, that’s tough to counter. If they are that good, and they seem to have a lot of fans, I’d be willing to bet that a lower restock might increase sales. Just a hunch though.

If you netted even a modest three extra entry level units sold per month, that’s an extra $180,000 gross on a $5k piece, more on higher end stuff. I’m not astute as to the business end of this as some of you are, but it may incentivize some folks.

That's probably why the restock fee. Way too many out there want the businessman to subsidize their learning curve.

The only reason I haven’t tried the Raven is the restock fee. I could probably stomach $150 plus shipping on restock, but I cannot do $400 plus shipping, likely $500 total for me.

I also pause as I recently heard a new PrimaLuna Evo at a buddy’s house that just didn’t work to my ears. He ended up returning it after a long burn-in and with multiple speaker set-ups.

My system is comparable, and I fear if they were even vaguely similar that neither would be a good match with my gear.

I’ve been VERY interested in the Raven for a long time, but I’ll stay with a rebuilt Scott in one room and a Conrad Johnson pre with custom monoblocks in the other.

I had a hum on  different brand amplifier and it drove me nuts.  I swapped out PC's, plugged them directly into the wall, swapped speaker and RCA cables, changeds tubes and nothing corrected the hum in one speaker.  It ended up being a simple loose grounding wire.  Just saying there a lot of steps to go through before deciding if it is an actual hum issue.  

tried raven with B&W 805s D3. did not like what I heard. There was a strong buzzing sound. amp got very very hot. I can't imagine using that in the summer. Had Rotel before and ended up with Hegel. Very happy. I would not recommend Raven. 

"I find much to admire with the Raven gear. However, more than one person has commented about a hum problem they could not get rid of. Might want to talk to Dave about that before you pull the trigger."

Yes, I experienced hum from a well-used Blackhawk. It wasn't in the signal, it was transformer self-noise. I could clearly hear it from my 12 feet away listening position and it was enough to dissuade me from buying.  The amp had been returned for evaluation on this issue, without solution. I did think the amp was superb though, in terms of sound quality. Quite special. However, I won't tolerate any noise of any kind from a tube amp or preamp. It's just not necessary. I've had similar experiences with the first generation of Rogue Cronus too. I hope that was subsequently engineered out of their products. Perhaps that's now the case with Blackhawks....I hope so, they deserve success with their designs. Myself, now I live with utterly silent Van Alstine and Quad tube equipment.

Haven't compared the two amps but I've done the rough equivalent by going to better caps and diodes. A lot of the difference between the amps is their bespoke Raven caps. These types of upgrades are always worth it, with a significant improvement in detail, less grain, a more liquid natural sound. With Raven your extra also gets a higher quality 4 stage (vs 2 stage) powder coat finish. Hard to see in video buy I bet in person it does look better. I'm sure this is one of those things where if you can go for it, go for it. But if not, don't sweat it.

I would imagine that the actual changes won’t be night and day but subtle. It’s up to the listener to decide if it’s “worth it”. For me, the improved parts quality, minor as it may be, and the better aesthetics was enough to pony up the extra $$.

Oz

Has anyone actually compared the Nighthawk vs the Blackhawk?  Is the Blackhawk really worth the extra $800 or just a minor improvement? Trying to decide ....Thanks

Why fuss with tubes in an amp?

Not sure if serious........?

Right- it's an insult not an argument.

There's no reason to "fuss". Simply use what comes, it will be fine. The beauty of Raven, if you do want to fuss (what others call tube rolling) you are dealing with Dave Thompson. Tube rolling any other way is a crap shoot. Dave though is a tube connoisseur with encyclopedic knowledge and experience and a vast store of incredible rare NOS tubes. So instead of throwing money around at random tubes you can talk and Dave can help you find your magic tubes. I mean, if the magic as delivered isn't already magic enough!😍

"Why fuss with tubes in an amp?"
+1 @ozzy62 reply. 
Charles 

Why fuss with tubes in an amp?

Not sure if serious........?

Why? Well because tube amps sound better than SS amps the vast majority of the time. I also have tubes in my phono stage and my DAC. They are just the preferred method of amplification in all applications if sound quality is a premium.

That said, I am not of the mind that all tube amps sound better than all SS amps. I have owned some very good solid state amps, but they usually don't hang around for very long.

Oz

Get a sugden class A...then use something tubed to connect to it, such as a tubed phono preamp or dac. Why fuss with tubes in an amp? The small tubes in both a phono preamp or dac will last a very very long time. 

Owning Cornwall IVs I'm not the least bit concerned about having enough power.

Oz

Regarding the power output, it likely is dependent on the speakers.  With my 90db speakers, the volume output of my Blackhawk is identical to that of my 100wpc Rogue amp.  

Thanks @lak , looking forward to it.

Ozzy62, congratulations on your purchase, I think you are really going to like the Blackhawk Mk III. Please post your thoughts once you receive the unit and have an opportunity to evaluate it.