Well if you are starting with an amp you really must try tubes and your current speakers are pretty tube friendly. They have a certain realism in the way they make sound I haven’t been able to find as easily in SS gear. I personally like push pull integrated amps. With an integrated it’s easier to resell, no issues w pre/power synergy, and some push pull designs have enough juice for low efficiency speakers (though probably not Maggie’s).
I’m not sure what your local market looks like, but I love my Willsenton R8. Due to the backlog in manufacturing the resale prices are pretty close to new, and yes they will sell on the used market nearly immediately, which should tell you something. I’d order one direct and if you don’t like it, you’ll find plenty of takers second hand. Otherwise try and find a Prima Luna or another highly popular tube amp manufacturer.
I pair it with Dynaudio Contours which is actually an excellent match for a well built tube amp, especially with kt88 tubes. I’ve had monster SS amps in my system and the Willsenton gives up little in the bass department while offering wonderfully natural mids and highs. The Willsenton is almost 70lbs though, the transformers are massive which probably has something to do with it being speaker friendly. I use mine in triode mode. It’s a holographic, natural, meaty sound with all the sizzle and snap you could ask for.
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@perkadin thanks, i've seen some reviews about the Willsenton R8 and everybody seems to be in love with it... I was checking the seller's page... did you choose the 240 voltage? Sorry for the silly question but i have zero experience with tubes
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Hello, The one killer in all of this is the Maggie’s. They need the right amp to drive them. Not just power but damping factor. I would go with a Hegel 120. I know it seems low at 75watts. The main thing is the damping factor. This amp will push your Maggie’s very well. They are on your side of the pond. They are $3000 usd. You can use the rest on the sub you will need. REL is very fast and a great match for your Maggie’s. It will have some digital built in so you can explore a little to decide what vinyl you want to buy. You are right about the Rogue Chronus Magnum. I thought it was 60 watts not 100. Still, more than enough power. If you want to try to work with a dealer in the states the local store in the Chicagoland area is a dealer. Maybe you can come to a deal with shipping. https://holmaudio.com/You should call and work out a deal. Plus, this Rogue is built very well and is the perfect sweet spot for all speakers. |
I went w/ 120v since I’m in the US. I chose the KT88s and the standard preamp tubes which IMO sound amazing. I’m in no rush to tube roll the preamp section but will eventually out of curiosity. I tried some el34’s power tubes but I missed the bass and dynamics of the KT88’s, but they were incredible for jazz and vocals. Also remember I’m using 85db speakers, you may fall in love w el34s. I want to try KT77s next to see what they are like. That’s the nice thing about tubes, you can tweak the sound in meaningful ways without purchasing all new gear. Well I guess Tubes are new gear. It also has a triode/ultra linear switch on the remote which has a dramatic effect on the sound. Triode is a little softer with better separation of instruments and ultra linear sounds more powerful and brings the vocals forward. These are not subtle audiophile differences either, your friends and family members will notice. It takes about 6 weeks or so for delivery but that should provide enough time to for you figure out what tubes to try.
So many of my preconceived opinions on tubes were wrong (lack of detail, lack of bass, only for sensitive speakers) I just wish I hadn’t waited so long to try them. |
I concur with hshifi regarding the 'right amp' requiring the appropriate current and wattage not just watts.
I heard a 80 watt ARC amp that was driving Sonus faber Olympica IIs and I was shocked at the punch and bass coming from a '80 watt' amp. It certainly seemed to have the same punch and impact of my 300 watt amp at home.
Therefore, auditioning and/or home trials are critical. |
@adversam
willsenton is made in china too ... why would you consider?
otoh - odyssey is ’made’ in indiana, usa but using china made components, casing, wiring, transformer, is that better?
best wishes on your search, hope you find what pleases you...
😂😂😂 |
One word of caution in a vinyl only system - pay careful attention to the input sensitivity of the integrated amps that you are considering. In my analog system, I tried several different integrated amps, and some of them sounded dull and lifeless (which contradicted reviews and owners' experiences). At times it was baffling - I would sit there listening and think, "This is the amp people have been raving about?" After some investigation, I discovered that integrated amps with a low input sensitivity did not work well in my system. The lower output voltage of a phono stage (compared to digital sources) can't drive some integrated amps to full power. It was a good (but needlessly expensive) learning experience.
Cheers,
Scott |
@jjss49 Willsenton is a chinese product, Hegel is a norwegian company which moved to China part of the production and that's what i find a bit of a different concept, including the use of china made components which can actually have good quality... Anyway the Hegel was on my list and i'll test it because i'm very curious after hearing all the favorauble reviews... of course if i fall in love with the sound I ll go against my principles, even i still dislike their policies
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@smrex13 thanksfor the advice, maybe a good external phono would help? how did you solve this issue? still playing vinyls? |
@adversam Yep, still vinyl only. It wasn't so much a problem to solve, rather than a specification that I learned to pay attention to. I'll provide my (fairly limited) understanding on the issue, but I'm sure others can add to it. The quality of the external phono stage is irrelevant for this discussion - a high quality stage and a cheap stage with the same gain and the same cartridge will put out the same voltage.
To keep the math simple, the standard 40db/60db gain for MM/MC corresponds to 100x/1000x amplification. So, if you have a 4mV MM cartridge, your MM phono stage will put out 400mv (100x4mV). Similarly, a .4mV cartridge into an MC stage put out the same 400mv (1000x.4mV). Of course, the phono stage will output more voltage on musical peaks.
I'll now use the example of two different integrated amps that I have demoed at home. The first had a very low input sensitivity of 1.2v (note: higher numbers = lower input sensitivity). So, my 40db phono stage wasn't even putting out half the voltage needed to drive the integrated to full power. This amp sounded terribly dull with no dynamic punch. The second integrated had a high input sensitivity of 125mV, so my phono stage was putting out more than three times the needed voltage to drive it to full power. On this particular amp, I couldn't use much of volume control range - it got very loud very quickly.
I've found the most success in choosing integrated amps that have an input sensitivity a little lower than the output of the phono stage, but not significantly lower. So, with a 400mV output from the phono stage, integrated amps with input sensitivity in the 200-350mV range have worked the best in terms of having good range on the volume control, no overloading, and still maintaining a full, dynamic sound.
I'm just sharing my personal experience and my admittedly limited knowledge on input sensitivity. Others may correct some errors above, but I'm pretty damn certain about my experience :).
Cheers,Scott
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Magnepan’s are great sounding speakers period. Don’t let people put you off from them. You will need tons of high current and watts to drive them, don’t let anyone tell you different. Macintosh and Magnepan’s are not a good fit. Classe Amps are the perfect fit. I prefer the older Classe Amps. Current Magnepan system: Magnepan 20.1’s with Classe CAM350’s. I know that’s not in y our budget, but the big panels give the big bass. Any model from the MGIIIA"s and up will give you very nice bass. I hear great things about the LRS’s, get a great servo sub, with a used Classe CA200 or comparable Classe amp and you should be good to go...Enjoy the Music...
Before I get slammed, I really like Macintosh Amps, just not with Magnepan Speakers. |
@smrex13 thanks again that' s a very nice info... could you mention some integrated or power amp which played your vinyls in a very satisfying way? that's exactly the recommendation i need as basically i play just vinyls as you |
@adversam I think you're making a good choice by considering an integrated amp with high power - that approach will work well with Magnepans, Harbeths, and most other speakers as well. It's a great foundation for whatever you decide to do down the road.
I won't pretend to know the used market at your price point. As far as new integrated amps, here are a few companies that make products that are generally well regarded by reviewers and people who have owned them long term:
-Parasound: HINT 6 - Yes, you're paying for a bunch of other stuff (dac, phono stage), but by all accounts it's a very good integrated amp even if you aren't using its other features.
-Musical Fidelity: M6si - This one is a powerhouse - 220wpc. For some reason, MF doesn't spec their input sensitivity, so you might want to do some research to see if it's a good match. The M5si is also well regarded and still has 150wpc into 8 ohms.
-Bryston - they only make one integrated amp now, and it's beyond your budget. But Bryston gear lasts forever, so the used market might be an option here.
Hegel - Many people rave about Hegel. I have tried two of their integrated amps (H80 and H200) over the years. Neither worked well for me, but I'm in the minority. In hindsight, I wonder if they have a lower input sensitivity, as they sounded distant and lacked dynamics. To be fair, I haven't heard any of their more recent models.
Those are just some quick thoughts. Ideally, you'd be able to hear them in your own system. But, again, if you get a well designed, high powered integrated amp, then you can have fun experimenting with phono stages (tubed and ss), different cartridges, turntables, tonearms, and speakers, all of which likely will have a far greater impact on the sound of your system.
Cheers,
Scott |
@smrex13 thank you again for your reply, you're really giving me great inputs! indeed regarding the integrated i m between the hint6 and the m6si... following your previous comment i also went to check the input sensibility but i confirm you that for m6si there' s no info... i'm also thinking of odyssey's amps but first need to find out about eventual shipping to eu. I have a last question for you, coming back to Parasound's gears... as an alternative to the Hint6 I'm seriously considering an Halo A21 power amp, maybe with a Schiit Freya as a preamp... Did you have any experience with the A21? Could it be a good match playing music with a turntable? Thanks again for your precious help:) |
I understand that Magnepan uses Bryston for reference electronics. But could be wrong. |
@adversam I've heard good things about Odyssey amps, but I don't have experience with them. Rather than asking whether an amp is a good match for vinyl, I think the question is more whether an amp will be a good match with your speakers. With respect to the Parasound A21 - yes, it will certainly drive your speakers well.
And if you are looking at separates rather than an integrated amp, the preamp is likely to have more impact on the overall sound of your system than the amp will (assuming that the amp has enough power for your speakers, of course).
In any event, if you are trying to get your vinyl system to sound as good as possible, I would probably worry least about the power amp - Bryston, Odyssey, Parasound, Musical Fidelity, etc. all make amps that will drive your speakers with good control and power. It's far more important to get the cartridge, tonearm, turntable, and phono preamp working together well (and the preamp if you are going with separates).
At least that's my opinion. Others may differ, which is why this hobby is fun!
Cheers, Scott |
@adversamTo continue on rfnoise's promotion of Audio Research, I am going to give my whole story to emphasize how much I love their sound. There are sooo many choices and my experience is very limited, but I am a huge fan and went through this pathway:
Classic 120 mono block amps
LS3B linestage
PH5 phono
CL120s
LS26 linestage
PH7 phono
REF 150 amp
REF 3 linestage
REF 2 phono
GSi75 integrated
The Classic 120s were my first ARC products. I had a B&K preamp and Parasound HCA2200ii amp at the time to compare. Those 110wpc from the ARC sounded much more full and dynamic compared to the Parasound's 250wpc. I picked up a 2nd HCA 2200ii and bridged them so was comparing those 750wpc to the CL120's 110wpc and they CL120s still won. I know it is hard to believe, but they really did! My main point thus far is to not get uber focused on specs. That is one thing I have learned over the years is to only trust your ears. I don't care what the damping factor or rated power is of my ARC amps...they sound amazing and have driven my low to modest efficiency speakers well(86 and 89db)
I accepted that I was a tube fan and sold the Parasound amps and listened to the CL120s for about 3 years before getting the REF 150 along with all the other upgrades you see above. While the REF 150 sounded glorious, I got a GSi75 that popped up for a good price. I thought what the heck, if I don't like it I will resell. Well, I love it and I sold all the separates. They don't pop up too often and that alone would be out of your stated 'amp' budget. The GSi75 has a great phono and DAC so depending on your ability to check one out, you may be able to sell other gear to consider an all-in-one integrated. ARC also has the VSi75 that is a standard integrated with no phono nor DAC. I love ARC's sound and would encourage you to audition. There is rumor of a new integrated in their lineup that is customizable regarding plug-ins like the phono and DAC. This would need time to settle into the used market to be feasible so just an FYI.
While I love my current system I am always curious about other components and lately I have really wanted to hear one of Mark Levinson's latest integrated amps. Their 5805 would be in your budget used and is also an all-in-one with the phono and DAC. Their 585.5 is more powerful and similar to my GSi75 in pricing so would need the selling of your other gear to open up your budget. I have no idea how they sound but have been very well reviewed.
Enjoy the hunt and come back to your thread when you pull the trigger.
Dana
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@smrex13 thank you again for the input... a new turntable is going to be the first shot... as i have an old Revolver which needs to be replaced. I almost decided to go for a Rega Planar 6 with Exact Cartridge. Plus phono Rega Aria. Regarding the preamp you are absolutely right and i almost convinced myself to go with separates... So far i read great opinions on Schiit Freya, a new one costs in Eu 1000 dollars... Do you have any suggestion in the range of 2000$? |
@dhite71 thanks for your sharing o Audio Research, i will check for sure the used market, it won't be easy as in Eu is more difficult to find these gears than in US. The Ref 3 is something i have at the top of the list, I'd buy it in case of a good offer |
@adversam To be honest, I don't know too much about tube preamps, as I haven't used separates too often. I can only mention a few manufacturers who have a reputation for producing good tube preamps:
1. Aric Audio: He's a small operation here in the US, but he is very responsive to customers. His preamps are praised by nearly everyone who owns one. His Transcend 6SN7 Linestage retails for $2165.
2. Primaluna: Their new EVO series 100 preamp retails for $2100 here in the U.S. There are also bargains to be had on the used market with Primaluna gear. Their website is quite informative.
3. Rogue Audio: An American company that produces a wide range of tube preamps. They get good reviews, and their RP-1 retails for about $1800 here.
I'm sure others will share many more possibilities. One quick note on compatibility between separates - the input impedance of the power amp should be at least 10 times the output impedance of the preamp. For example, the Primaluna EVO 100 has an output impedance of 2800 ohms, so you would want a power amp with an input impedance of at least 28K ohms.
Cheers,Scott |
@dhites “To continue on rfnoise's promotion of Audio Research....”
Me too. Too long a list for me as I first got an inexpensive ARC preamp... then phonostage... and now all ARC gear. The span of time from first component to all was 40 years. I could have taken a more direct path if I had zeroed in on all ARC from the beginning... and of course, had more money when I was younger. |
audio research and conrad johnson
longtime stalwarts of the high end tube amplification scene... as i like to say, when a company like this has been this successful continuously, for so long, it cannot be because they have been stealing deaf people’s money for all these years! :)
others hot companies come and go, but these two, now into second generation of management/ownership still carry the banner proudly ... they can be said to be expensive (they are) and ’the safe play’ (perhaps) but their quality build, their beautiful sound, their excellent support, makes sure customers past and present do get what they pay for .... |
@smrex13 thanks again for the great inputs, both primaluna100 and rogue rp 1 are on my list now
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@jjss49 thanks! cj could be a great solution, do you have to re
any nice model to recommend i can look for into used market? AR i'm afraid is out of budget, would like to invest 2500/3000$ for the preamp |
ARC has been making preamps for 50 years. I bought my first as a pretty old used one so it fit in my budget. It sounded magnificent. Then I upgraded over the decades. Used mainstream audiophile stuff always sounds good and is a great way to go. |
