Thanks emailists, yes i found the BHK 300's to be very reasonably priced for such nice hybrid monos.
I am also a hybrid believer as i like very much Aesthetix design.
I have to see if i can find a dealer to audition the BHK 300's.
Anyway happy new year to all of you audiophile guys.
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Dealer alert but here goes: I have the BHK 300’s on my TAD CR1’S and couldn’t be happier. Ps audio planned on offering a solid state input option but the tube input just trounced it for sound quality. To me that’s a big deal since I have found hybrid seems to sound best on my system. And of course the ability to tube roll gives another level of tweak ability vs. a pure solid state design. If you ever travel to NYC and want to hear ours give me a shout out at Triodepicturesound.
Since PS audio repurposed the casework from their power products and makes things on a larger production scale, the amps are half the price or less than probably anyone else could produce them for, so you’re likely getting a $30-40k amp for the bargain price of$15k. Why spend more? Use the extra cash for stellar cables like the Audioquest Wel signature and Niagara 7000 power conditioner which I can attest work extremely well with these amps - yes huge mono blocks benefitting greatly in dynamics and detail from power conditioning!
I believe Robert Harley bought his review pair of BHK 300's.
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Thieliste,
I like your approach and priority placed on the actual listening quality, isn’t this the whole point of having home audio, to "enjoy" music reproduction?
I get the big powerful high current bipolar transistor concept to manhandle any and all speaker loads. This doesn’t mean or ensure necessarily good quality of sounnd. I really appreciate the input coupled interstage transformer and only two stages of gain design of Ypsilon, very smart! Quality watts indeed. I wish you could directly compare this amplifier to the D'Agostino on your Thiels, two very different design concepts.
Charles |
Theiliste, I would read the Stereophile review of the Ypsilon and check out the measurements. I don’t know much about your Theils, but a demanding speaker does benefit from a doubling down of power down to 2 ohms. It can result in a more relaxed sound (maybe that’s less distortion created as the speaker's impedances goes low) that makes listening more enjoyable. Of course, every system is different and the best way to decide is to listen in your home, so you’re good there. I would check out the Stereophile measurements though, and consider how this may apply to your speakers. |
If i was going to go the pure wattage route i would pick the D'agostino classic amp which doubles down all the way to 2 ohms and be done with any load problems.
But since this is not my vision of things i prefer to go quality watts and a lot of refinement.
I know most older Thiels are known to work best with big older Krells and so on but this is not my cup of thea.
The CS 3.7 are not as hard to drive as the 2.4s for exemple and i'm not even talking about the CS 6 and 7.2s.
I'll let you guys know my impressions with the Aelius ll.
I don't know anyone who has tried Ypsilon with Thiel speakers yet so that's going to be interesting.
All i can say for the moment is the best i've heard to date with the CS 3.7 are the Aesthetix Atlas mono Signature + Calypso Eclipse linestage.
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Unsound,
I understand your perspective. My essential point is that listening is the final arbiter and is of course guided by personal objectives and taste. This explains why one Thiel owner will insist that high power/current SS amplifiers are the only way to go. Another owner will retort, "been there and done that, tube amplifier was better for me". It appears that Thiel owners have various routes to success.
Charles |
Answered this in the Thiel thread, but as it's more germane to this category, may I add a suggestion you pay special attention to the output impedance of the tube pre and the input impedance of the Class D amps your considering. |
I may have read a negative on this but can't find the post. I am thinking of getting a pair of CS3.7s. Would a high power class D ice or ncore amp with a tube pre fit the bill? Or would it all end up too dry up top?
Thanks,
George
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charles1dad, the importance of doubling down depends on how linear the impedance plot of the speakers are to begin with, and how much power can be delivered once there. The OP 3.7's have an admirably flat impedance plot, so it's less of an issue here. Thiel's recommended power output would suggests about a minimum of 400 Watts into 2 Ohms. So the Aelius's measured 440 Watts is within that margin. Keep in mind the 3.7's have a sensitivity of roughly 85 dB/Watt at that impedance.
Sure it's valuable to know what others have found to work for them, to try and get a consensus, but I have no idea who most of these strangers are, what there biases are, if they have any real experience, or have any idea if they know what there talking about.
Some reports mirror my own findings, other report things I've heard, but have found that we have different priorities, other reports contradict my own experiences, others appear to be pushing an agenda without any true experience with the particulars at hand. I try and find a pattern from Audiogon posters to affix a personal value to their inputs. Many different people choose various things for a myriad of reasons, not all of which make a lick of sense. I try to include those things that are objective and have proven themselves to most likely to be repeatable. Lots of factors? Yes, including these. As for opinions, well everyone has one, and so do I.
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I’ve read numerous posts by Thiel owners who preferred tube rather than their SS amplifier due to superior sound quality in "their" opinion. These tube power amplifiers don’t increase power into diminishing loads, yet to many they managed to sound better. Lots of factors determine the ultimate sound quality we hear.
Charles |
Hello unsound, I'd think that one determines "working well" by how it preforms in the music signal chain i.e. reproducing music in your system. You'd listen and decide if you like or dislike what you hear, this is why a home audition is so valuable. What we want from an audio product is for it to sound good enough to the point where we'd willingly purchase it.
Too much emphasis on the doubling the power as the speaker impedance is halved. The Aelius can handle a 2 ohms load, the relevant factor is does it or any amplifier "sound" good while doing so.? You'll only determine that via one method, listening. Thieliste will fortunately soon have this opprotunity.
Charles |
Thieliste, Some amplifiers halve their Class A output as they double down in impedance. Under powering a speaker, never lets the speaker perform optimally, increases distortion, and can potentially damage speaker drivers. Working and working well are different things.
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Charles1dad, As Thiel recommends a minimum of 100 Watts at 2.83 V/m the Aelius would seem to qualify as a suitable candidate, depending of course on desired volume out put and room size.
I think it worth noting that instead of doubling power into 2 Ohms from 4 Ohms as a true high current design would, or even increasing power (as spec'd) the afore mentioned Stereophile measurements show the Aelius dropped power, which incidentally would mean that it would be dropping power where the sensitivity of the speaker decreases. To be fair, it might be possible that power from the wall might have been sagging, but I doubt that explains such a degree of disparity.
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Thieliste,
Michael Fremer reviewed the Aelius for Stereophile and when JA did the customary post review measurements this amplifier was stable at 2 ohms and produced 445 watts into that load. I don't believe that your Thiels will be a problem at all. I just believe that it will be likely the best sounding amplifier of those on your list. Just my opinion.
Charles |
Peter Breuninger has successfuly driven his YG Sonja and MBL 101 MKll with the first version of the Aelius monos.
The Aelius work in class A up to 60 watts wich is probably enough to drive the CS 3.7
The Aelius ll have had a substential revision with bigger tranformers.
Just to tell you guys, here in France many CS 3.7 owners have used the Sugden IA-4 integrated amp with big success and beautiful sound, only 33 watts in class A.
tom_hankins how did you drive your CS 7.2s ?
I might want to add a pair of 7.2s to my Thiel collection at some point but driving them properly is another thing.
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Unsound,
On paper you could be right, thus the beauty of a home audition in order to get the actual listening experience. Specifications are helpful but aren't equal to a hands on contact scenario. We'll soon read his impressions.
Charles |
Thieliste,
You have multiple good choices available as the suggestions you’re receiving confirm. However if you are able to have the Ypsilon pre and power amplifiers pairing , that is one very compelling direction to follow.
Good luck,
Charles |
It would appear as though the Yisilon Aelius II might not be as suitable below 4 Ohms, where these Thiels spend quite a bit of time.
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Audionet Max monoblocks. Dans S250 stereo or BAT VK-655SE Stereo or monoblocks. I am a former owner of the CS7.2 speakers. |
Dan's Momentum S250 stereo is outstanding but here in Europe for $12K less i can purchase the Ypsilon Aelius ll monos.
Concerning the Modwright 150 SE i could easily buy 2 of them within my budget.
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ill be curious were youre finding are with the modwright 150 se...i know dan's gear is alot for your money |
Yes my Ypsilon distributor is a very cool guys, he's driving down with the gear to make 2 home demos, one for a guy who wants to try out the Aelius on his Magnepan 20.7 and me on my Thiels CS 3.7
If at the end i decide to go the Ypsilon route i will purchase the full system : Aelius ll + PST-100 MKll.
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That's an intriguing pairing of the Negra and Ypsilon, I bet it'll sound gorgeous. Home auditions aren't always possible to arrange, it good that you have an accommodating distributor. I am curious to read your listening impressions of the Ypsilon in your system and how it compares to the other candidates. I've heard the PST 100 and thought it was superb, natural the antithesis of electronic hifi sound character. An expensive brand but at least they sound quite good.
Charles |
Well yes since the Ypsilon Aelius ll is in first position in my short list, the distributor has arranged me a home demo on my system with a Nagra Jazz preamp since he still didn't receive his PST-100 MKll linestage yet.
I assume Ypsilon gear being way above Aesthetix gear.
I already auditioned the Hegel H30 which gave very goog results on the CS 3.7
knghifi how did you like the D'agostino classic amp ? does it have a very refined sound presentation ?
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Thiel is terrific,
You have assembled a very worthy list of amplifiers. I've heard the D' Agostino and the Ypsilon amplifiers on 4 occasions between the RMAF and CES. Show conditions no doubt but in good rooms that were very well setup on each occasion. Sometimes you can get a feel for the brand's "house sound" generally speaking.
The Ypsilon is the more impressive in my opinion. It comes across as more natural, musically involving and ultimately more interesting and captivating compared with what I heard from the D' Agostino demonstrations. Ypsilon products consistently sound exceptionally well when ever I've heard them.
You're planing to audition these various amplifiers which is near mandatory at this elevated level. Obviously hearing them driving your Thiele is the ideal scenario. I look forward to your listening impressions.
Charles |
I'm familiar with D'Agostino Momentum stereo and it should drive
Thiel 3.7 based on specifications.
You should add Hegel H30 to your list. I have one and is superb. Again, base on spec it should the Thiel 3.7. There are many professional reviews available online that describes the SQ accurately. |
Gryphon hasn't had a US presence in some time, I knew they were pricey, but just not how pricey. I can certainly understand your position. I've always like those Krells with Thiels. But, hey, it's your money. |
Well i did audition the Gryphon Antileon Evo but at 35K€ for a stereo amp that's very steep!
I'd prefer staying within the 25k€ range for monos or 16k€ for stereo amp.
I don't want to go the Krell route as i don't find them refined for Thiel speakers.
The Aesthetix Atlas (already auditioned) are in my short list until i demo the Ypsilon Aelius ll in 2 weeks.
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The D'Agostino shouldn't be troubled by any of those 3.
Is Gryphon an option? Or, perhaps D'agostino era Krells?
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The good thing about the D'agostino Classic is that it doubles down all the way to 2 ohms, it's not the case of the other brands.
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No the 5i's are even more difficult load to drive, i'd prefer the more easier and recent 7.2s.
The problem is that 7.2s are extremely difficult to find now days on the used market but this is no hurry for me as my main speaker is the CS 3.7 anyway.
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Yes, I think the D'Agostino's could drive theThiel 7.2's. Have you considered the Thiel CS 5i's?
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Surely PS Audio is a very serious company, i've read good things about the BHK 300.
How about the BAT VK-655SE anyone ?
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No experience with PS Audio amps, but do have their P10 Power Plant, DirectStream DAC and PerfectWave transport and like gshepardbuster have found their support to be really excellent!
I believe PS Audio has a 30 day money back guarantee, if you purchase their products new, thru them or one of their authorized dealers. |
No experience with PS Audio amps only power products. IME if you need anything their customer support is outstanding! |
Thanks unsound, do you think the D'agostino classic amp could drive a pair of CS 7.2's just fine ?
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No experience here.
For your Thiel 3.7's, FWIW, going purely on the specs, in order:
(1) D'Agostino Classic Stereo
(2) PS Audio BHK 300 Mono
(3) Modwright KWA 150 SE
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