Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Driving PSB Imagine T2s

Have you asked Upscale Audio or Kevin Deal as he is the US importer of Primaluna and quite the expert? What is the efficiency of your PSB’s?

Great idea!  I will see if I can get in touch with Kevin right away. 

My PSBs are 90dB sensitive.   Crossover: 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley at 500Hz and 1.8kHz. Frequency response: 34Hz–23kHz, ±3dB (on axis); 36Hz–20kHz, ±1.5dB, (on axis); 36Hz–10kHz (30° off axis). LF cutoff, –10dB: 29Hz. Impedance: 6 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum. Sensitivity: anechoic chamber, 88dB; typical listening room, 90dB. Recommended amplification: 20–300W, program 300W
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-imagine-t2-tower-loudspeaker-specifications#RV6gmhVzpWYySfSV....

88 to 90 db efficiency for those speakers should allow you to drive 'em easily, and tubes simply seem snappier sounding anyway (whatever THAT means…more linear, instant tube juice, happier electrons...). I use a 60 something watt per side tube amp for 89 or so db main speakers and the thing about good, clean tube power seems to make you WANT to turn 'em up as it just gets sweeter the louder it goes.

As shown in Stereophile’s measurements the impedance of your speakers dips to around 2.4 ohms in the vicinity of 500 to 600 Hz, and rises to more than 8 ohms in the vicinity of 2 kHz. Also, Stereophile measured the effective output impedance of the Dialogue Premium (not the HP version) as being relatively high for some output taps and modes, and extremely high for others. The interaction of that kind of speaker impedance variation and those output impedance characteristics will tend to give greater emphasis, compared to your solid state Creek amplifier, to frequencies at which speaker impedance is high (i.e., especially around 2 kHz) and less emphasis to frequencies at which speaker impedance is low (i.e., especially around 500 to 600 Hz).

I would expect the degree of that difference to be somewhat less, however, with the Dialogue Premium HP, as it probably has lower effective output impedances than the non-HP version given the doubled quantity of power tubes.

Whether or not you would find that tonal difference to be preferable with the particular speakers in your particular room, and whether that difference would be overshadowed by differences in the intrinsic sonic characters of the Creek and PrimaLuna amps (which I would expect to be considerable), I of course can’t say. But in addition to the power and drive capability of an amp, and its intrinsic sonic character, the tonal effects of impedance interactions between amp and speaker are also a factor that should be taken into consideration IMO.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

I would ditch the Creek and go with the Dialogue Premium HP integrated amp.  Trust me, that amp will effortlessly drive your speakers.

Jbhiller-

Speaking with the source-Kevin@ Upscale Audio , to get the facts is the thing to do.

Stereo5's recommendation of the HP Integrated  may be a consideration also.
The Stereophile review compares the integrated with high level separates.
Also, the HP was found to drive a high end speaker much better than several high end amps(the brand, I can't recall-also a Stereophile article) Kevin may mention these facts.

Been enjoying my HP Integrated for 2 years now. Those 89 DB's spec'ed speakers will ROCK. I have similar spec'ed  speakers which the HP easily drives to ear bleeding levels if necessary. Rarely do I listen past 9:00 on the volume dial. In addition, my factory spec'ed 89db speakers were reviewed several years ago and REALLY  measured around 87, suggesting paper specs are bumped a couple points like many products in the name of market appeal. Not implying ALL  manufacturers do this..just sayin

The Dialogue HP can drive anything . And i mean anything .

Thank you everyone!  I'm going to call Kevin right away. 

Ditching the Creek is certainly an option.  I spent a good bit of cash on it and the Ruby DAC ($600) so I really don't want to but it may be necessary. The idea of having one box is one I like given this system is in a living room and pleasing the wife is of high order.  I can always start with the DAC in the Bluesound Node2 that I have because it's no slouch.  I need my holiday bonus money now!

Don't fret over not having an expensive preamp to use . You may like the creek passive with a tube amp . I enjoy using a $60 volume pot at times with certain gear . Zero coloration added can be an eyeopener .(with digital signals)

Maplegrove,  

Do you have firsthand experience with the Primaluna products?  Can you shoot me some example(s) of what you have experienced with it driving loudspeakers and the results?  I would greatly appreciate it! 

Hello jbhiller . I have the Primaluna integrated one . It has been used on a variety of speakers . The most difficult to drive have been Thiel sc7 , King Sound King . Have used it with two Triangle models . Revel f30’s , Cerwin Vega’s , Innersound , Meadowlark .. and some i am forgetting at the moment .

I had over an associate of Frank Vanalstines a few weeks ago for a abx box demo . This gentlemen designs and builds amps . He had never heard of Primaluna as he is in his own (bubble) when it comes to the hifi market place . His first comment was how impressive the bass was .

I have only used kt88 tubes in the Primaluna so far . Have to imagine using kt120 or 150 would benefit me with the harder to drive speakers .

Not sure on how to send a pm yet . How does one go about that ?

The Primaluna should drive them easily. I demoed with similar speakers, Dynaudio Contour 3.4, and they were a great match.  

I'm pushing Tyler Acoustics Highland series of speakers with my Primaluna Dialogue integrated with no issues at all. They are 89db and I have used a variety of power tubes (EL34, KT77, KT88, KT120 and now KT150). None of the tubes ever strained but the 150's have really opened up the sound. Not as warm or syrupy as the EL34's but the soundstage is quite a bit larger with more punch. The EH KT88 and TS KT120 were my least favorite as they both for my tastes had too much midrange glare or energy. The new issue Mullard EL34 sounded glorious as does the Gold Lion KT77 however, the overall dynamics and soundstaging goes to the KT150. 

Maplegrove, Austinbob, and Samzx, 

Thank you so very much.  I really enjoyed the info on types of speakers you've tried and Samzx's tube rolling adventures.  I am salivating.  Midlife crisis?  

I'm now 42 and can afford this stuff.  I'm going to go for it in December.

I called Kevin Deal today at Upscale Audio.  We are playing phone tag.  Can't wait to pick his brain.  

I'm envisioning listening to great tube sound on the PSB Imagine T2s in front of the fire with a cocktail on cold December nights in Chicago!  

"The new issue Mullard EL34 sounded glorious as does the Gold Lion KT77 however, the overall dynamics and and soundstaging goto the KT150."

samzx12-  comments like that get me wondering about those KT150's in my PL HP. When I think about the $800 it requires, the curiosity goes away!

The KT77's do sound amazing, but I prefer the old RCA 6L6G coke bottles
in mine. Not drastically different, but a touch more "real" to my ears.
If I wasn't planning a speaker upgrade, I would like to try the KT150.

It will drive them but that doesn't translate into "you're going to love how it sounds".  Don't buy it until you hear the combination. Been there, done that (not with the Primaluna).  You bet everyone who owns one loves it. If you asked me the same question about an Accuphase class A amp, I'd tell you the same thing. Are the PSB's your end all be all dream speaker?

Good points Donjr.  

One of the hardest things to do, though, is to hear things in perfect combination before you buy.  I suppose I can see if a local dealer will let me bring in my loudspeakers.  

I'm not so fond of the closest primaluna dealer in my area--I've had a pattern of odd run ins with the staff.  About 16 years ago, the dealer tried to get me to pay $750 for a replacement woofer in a Monitor Audio bookshelf monitor.  When I called the company in the UK, their staff sent a new woofer out free of charge to my home.  The other issues dealt with staff that was clearly out to push certain product, regardless of the customer's view.  

There is a dealer about 200 miles north, so I'd be looking at a good day trip. 

I am curious as to whether folks are test driving equipment with their systems. With the lack of brick and mortar stores these days, it seems more difficult to do.  I wonder if there is validity to my impression.  

+1 to Donjr’s comment. It is entirely possible that a great speaker used in combination with a great amp that has adequate power and drive capability will result in mediocre sonics, or worse. Per my earlier comment, that is especially possible if the amp has particularly high output impedance (which would also mean it has particularly low damping factor), as appears likely to be the case here based on Stereophile’s measurements of the non-HP version, and the speaker’s impedance ranges from low values to high values at various frequencies (as is the case here, even just within the midrange region).

At the same time, it is entirely possible that the result would be wonderful. But there’s no way to be sure without trying the specific combo.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

Yes to retube your HP to KT150 is expensive and only you can decide whether its worth it. Keep your eyes out for gently used to tubes which may help the billfold lol. I will eventually roll back in my other power tubes as it is fun to experiment with different combinations. The stock tubes aren't bad but as usual we like to wonder if there is better out there. The EL34 and KT77 seem to have more midbass than the KT150 but the 150's are more dynamic and the soundstage is larger. They only have about 30 hours so I am hoping they get better and better. Not sure how long it takes for power tubes to actually start sounding their best?

I went to my local dealer today and here my takeaways. 

• He only had the PSB Imagine T3s on the floor and a Primaluna Prologue integrated to test.  Recall I have the T2s and was looking at the Primaluna Dialogue HP integrated or amplifier. 
  
• In a smallish room (about 15 x 12), the 40 w per channel Prologue was enough to drive the T3s to nice listening levels.  I felt the amp was starting to strain around 11 o'clock.  
• Mid level listening was superb.  The mid bass was glorious and I really liked the liquid, warmth to the sound.  
• Unless there is something I don't know, I would expect the Diaglogue HP to be just fine at driving my T2s in my room (about 13 x 21). Both the T3 and T2 are of the same efficiency, make, and have some similarities in sonic signature.  

I'm really leaning toward the Primaluna Dialogue HP.  I love my Creek Evolution 100, but matched with the PSBs they can sound a bit polite and dry.  

I went with the Primaluna Dialogue HP.  I mated it with an NAD M51, sold one of my Creeks, and moved the Evolution 100A to the TV room to run LS50s. 

The Primaluna sound is to die for.  Even better than my audition of the smaller model with T3s. I will do a formal review on here shortly. It's so wonderful to get the sound you are chasing.  This will keep me from upgrading and bouncing around from product to product.  I'd change loudspeakers before this amp indeed.  

I highly recommend checking out Primaluna--especially this product. 

One cavaet:  Your back may hurt given it is 69 lbs.  UGH.