Preamps can color sound considerably. Surprising?

@mrdecibel 

agreed, the discussion now seems to focus on the likelihood of impedance mismatchesbetween DAC and power amp, methinks. In attenuation mode, all a pre does is add distortion if impedances are properly matched. We are finally getting somewhere on this topic…

Not surprising in the least. They all have their own bespoke sonic signatures.

IMO all passably transparent preamps should have EQ of some sort. I tried the straight dac to amp and for some music it was pretty good…. But anything with a meaty midrange it was bright and kind of harsh. Very detailed though on an RME DAC. The dudes over at the science whatever site are all telling this is the way to go. I think there’s more to it than that personally.

when does the preamp’s additional voltage kick in? Most preamps in most systems are still used in attenuation mode, ime.

In attenuation mode, all a pre does is add distortion if impedances are properly matched.

All volume control systems, whether active or passive, attenuate the signal from a digital system. This is because the Redbook requirement is for too much voltage for the power amp so it has to be attenuated.

Passive systems can cause the source to make distortion depending on the value of the control in the passive. In addition they can introduce colorations since they lack the ability to control the cable. Successful passive setups are due to extreme care and/or very good luck!

The dudes over at the science whatever site are all telling this is the way to go. I think there’s more to it than that personally.

You are correct. The 'dudes' have yet to realize how an interconnect can influence the sound of a system if the variables around it are uncontrolled. This is where an active line stage can be quite helpful, in addition to superior volume control (over a digital volume control).

Yep,

Friday I bought a DVD/CD player for a friend at a rummage sale, $15..

Saturday a different friend brought his expensive CD player to compare with my Sony xa5400ES.

Both friends units directly to my Cayin Integrated Tube amp using it’s 6sn7s and 6sl7s for gain, KT88’s for power.

Both sounded very good.

Played my Sony, via McIntosh Tube preamp, bunch of 12...s, volume at 50 then off to the Cayin for remote volume via the 6’s. it sounded great. Just slighty preferred to the two others, but that is what I am used to and chose over others. Friend agreed it sounded darn good, no sense it was digital.

Next try my Sony direct to the Cayin. Without the mx110z, it sounded thin, not harsh or digital, just thin if you catch my description.

Next try friends fancy CD player via my mx110z: it sounded bloated, too much bass,

Taught me much unknown about my CD player and Preamp.

mx110z’s MM Phono stage always sounds better than any other phono stage I have compared it to.

Prior McIntosh SS C28 MM Phono sounded worse than any other phono I compared it to, so I sold it.

Mcintosh should do a line stage

@jumia McIntosh preamps include line stages. I am sorry but, I do not get the question ? 😕

Correction, they offer one solid state preamplifier with no phono stage , but no pure lion stage tube preamps

They always like to stuff things with a photo stage or headphone amplifier.

Not interested in solid state preamplifiers hey sixfrom McIntosh.  Have Mono blocks that are solid state I wish I could get them with tubes.  I think McIntosh is good for amplifiers but not much else. The processors they sell basically are marantz put into a Macintosh box.

@scm 

holmz ...The source output impedance is VERY low according to what I see listed for my ModWright 9.0X phono stage. Couldn`t find anything showing exactly what it is.

The amp`s input impedance is 28K ohms

The most important here is the listening level, and whether the interconnects to the amp is short or not.

Much easier if the passive to amp is a stereo amp and short ICs, then a long length to mono blocks across the room.

Every amp I own, and have owned, is / has been rated to reach full power with less than 2 volts at the input. If you have a good 2 volts to work with, impedances are well matched, and the system caters to your desired volume level ( s ), when does the preamp’s additional voltage kick in? Most preamps in most systems are still used in attenuation mode, ime.

Actually an amp requiring 5V would be better and the preamp needs to use less attenuation. Basically the lower the amp gain, the better.

Or the closer the preamp runs towards 0dB attenuation, the better.

Holmz ,

Clearly you understand impedance and volts and ohms, with respect to their relationships to all the various pieces of gear.  This is quite a feat to accomplish in my opinion.

Are you of the school that sees a difference between a longer speaker cable? I say this because I have 12 foot transparent speaker cables, and then I bought mono blocks which means I could've used a 1 m speaker cable. After spending $2500 for a speaker cable I wish I would've waited.  Also interconnects, the shorter the better?

do the lengths when they are 12 feet or less really matter when it comes to speaker or interconnect cables?

@jumia (I dunno) … all things equal, and cost not being a consideration, then IME (and in theory) one would want mono blocks are shorter speaker cables… especially for cable capacitance.

Some of the Linz designs (or weaving patterns) are pretty low in inductance.

But I think it is probably mostly lost when one hits the passive crossover, as there is a lot happening there, and the amp should generally be able to overcome capacitance and inductance.
However an active crossover should be a lot easier to damp and control.

How “hearable” it is, is uncertain, as sometimes I can believe I hear it, and at other times then sometimes I do not believe it. So i am not 100% certain.

With respect to ICs, the shorter the better, and especially with cart to phono stage.

If one is pushing a long distance between a preamp and amp(s) then they probably don’t want high capacitance cable and a passive preamp. If they are using a passive preamp, then they probably want to have the volume cranked up it, which means lower amp gain… if it needs to play quiet and loud, depending on the day and time, then a passive is not as ideal as an active preamp (IMO).

In your case, I’d suggest just putting a couple of 3’ pieces of speaker wire and try it. If it works, then sell the 12’ ones. I just got some cotton covered stuff from Jupiter Capacitor to try, but I could not find any bananas, so it’ll have to wait… and I am literally still running the lamp cord that I put in a year ago.
That 12ga cotton covered copper stuff is cheap enough to try.

But I am also trying to sell a couple of tube amps (mono block pair and a stereo amp), and if so I will go to XLR based mono blocks.

Clearly you understand impedance and volts and ohms, with respect to their relationships to all the various pieces of gear.  This is quite a feat to accomplish in my opinion.

Not really… a couple of electronics courses and most gear is designed to work as designed.
But it is not like, say a ski binding with a DIN7880 standard where they all conform.
Ideally all the sources would be some DIN with say 600 ohms output impedance, and all amps using another DIN specifying say 100k ohms input impedance.

However it is more like the Wild West with RCAs, and more standardised with XLRs and pro audio.

Adding in high capacitance cables, and long cables, are ways to coulor the sound… and totally ignoring what is happening inside of the preamp, the input and output impedances make a difference.

But the speakers are usually doing way more in terms of distortion, so I think starting there is generally more wise… and the more things that are lower distortion in the chain, seem to make it easier than trying to correct things with cables and coloured preamps.