Slipnot1 and Ooslik : Any word yet on what you're hearing with the Revelation Audio Labs umbilical for the Suprateks ? |
Ooslik...I find it interesting that you mention the following: "...the impression I am getting is that the transients are a bit faster with less glare throughout the musical range." I have burned in for 200 hours both the line and phono stages of my Cortese. I am still getting what I hear as some glare or harshness in the upper midrange, especially with instruments like trumpets. I did not have this before purchasing the Cortese, which was the only component that changed in my system. Let's just say that my previous preamp, built by an extremely brilliant friend I had known, no longer became serviceable. It too was an extremely fine unit with fairly high gain. Anyhow, I've tried some tube rolling ( replacing Sovteks will Mullard, Amperex, Siemens, etc.) but still haven't scotched the problem. I have yet to try the likes of 6SN7s by Ken Rad, RCA or Tungsol. I otherwise like the Cortese very, very much. It is a superb component. But there is that somewhat "glaring" issue that you've experienced too. I'm wondering what needs to be done to neutralize it. I still do have other options beyond tubes that I've yet to try, but do you, or any others having faced the same issue, have any suggestions---or---have any of you found as solution for it ? Thanks very much. |
Thanks very much Ooslik...I just received some of the earliest RCA 6SN7GTs, and will try them in my system. I am also waiting to receive a few nice sets of early Ken Rads as well as single set of the Tungsol Rounds. Like you, I have on hand an early Mullard GZ34, but also a Mullard GZ33 and an Amperex 5AR4. The thuds and microphonics vary, of course, depending on what tubes are being used. In most instances, I can live with those issues. I just want to scotch the glare bugaboo. Beyond that, the Cortese is a wonderful unit. I have my slightly modified Air Tight ATM-3 monoblocks, and an extremely fine ribbon/driver hybrid pair of speakers built by the brilliant friend I alluded to in my previous comments. Then there's my Dunlavy SC-IVs, which are sitting in taped boxes in another room. As much as I enjoyed them, I have enjoyed the hybrids even more. Okay, enough for now. thanks again for the [hopefully] reassuring words. |
In my latest effort to deal with the "glaring" issue associated with my Cortese referred to above, I acquired and tried the RCA gray glass (actually, the earlier "lightening bolt" logo 6SN7GTs that preceded the VT-231 incarnation) and the KenRad 6SN7/VT 231s. In my system, just as in Ooslik's, the RCAs sounded somewhat bright and glarey here and there. The KenRads virtually eliminated the stridency entirely, but a bit of the upper midrange lost a touch of the air and ambient detail I had with my Raytheon 231s and General Electric 6SN7GTBs. I then replaced my Tungsol 5881s with some Sylvania 5881s, and restored just a bit more of that ambient detail. The trick involves getting involving upper end detail and musicality without the glare or stridency. Now, I feel more confident than before about getting there. My next step is securing a good, but not super expensive moving coil. (I've been using the low output--1.5mv.--Grado Sonata.) I also should soon be receiving those Tungsol 6SN7/VT231 Round Plates. Incidentally, in case I failed to relate before, I did not make a single tube roll until I arrived at 200 hours burn in of both the phono and linestages of the Cortese. |
Could it be that Marill555 and I are the only Supratek owners facing the glare issue ? Probably not. Maybe it's all like the kind of experience I had a number of years back, when I owned Apogee Diva speakers. While they did things (in a positive sense) that I had never heard before from any other speaker, they had---you guessed it--an annoying upper midrange glare, no matter what I changed, component wise, around them. When I mentioned this to Apogee's creator, Jason Bloom, he denied there was any glare, and virtually said I was nuts. Undaunted, I wrote a letter to the editors at Stereophile, asking the same question, while acknowledging Jason Bloom's denial. The answer that appeared in print affirmed my impression. Maybe some hear the glare in their preamp, and maybe some do not. Frankly, I'm somewhat in agreement with Stiltskin's remarks about tube rolling and its costliness, and I'm ready to try some other non-tube possible solutions. At the same time, based on what I've heard using the stock complement of tubes (for 200 hours) that the Cortese came with, I cannot agree with the assertions of some other Cortese owners on Audiogon who claim that the stock tubes in the preamp offer the best sound. Again, it's possible that either they don't have, hear or recognize the glare that, at least, Marill555 and I are hearing. I still feel the Cortese is a superb unit, and will continue my search for that more unforced kind of sound Marill555 refers to. I welcome any other observations and comments from others who may be experiencing the same issue, and who may have found a positive way or ways to deal with it. Of course, there's also the possibility of bringing this up with Mick, but at this time, I'd rather try to deal with this matter on my own and not bug him. I have the feeling he's had his hands more than full with Supratek owners and would be owners. |
Maril555...Yes, the argument that "other" factors are at work is the standard one. Sometimes, that assertion is accurate, sometimes it isn't. I do feel pretty confident though that Mick is correct here, and I too trust his judgment. I will continue to do my best in an effort to neutralize the bugaboo. My experiences with Mick have also been very positive. I've e-mailed him a number of times with various kinds of questions. He has always impressed me as having been forthright and concerned to help with any matters that have arisen. Incidentally, I too have a dedicated listening room. I always wanted one, and my wife was very supportive. Upon retirement, I had one built onto the house we purchased when we moved. I've fashioned my own acoustic materials, and they seem to work as well as those I fashioned some years back in my single days. Well, anyhow, here's to good listening. My fingers are crossed too. |
Zachzib: That was quite a reply you gave ! Let me deal with your points, one by one. First, in general, from the overall tone of your response, I may have hit a sensitive chord with you about your own equipment. To get to specifics, no, I do not consider those owners who have spoken on this thread to be a bunch of "mid fi hacks". These are your words, not mine. In fact, I very much respect most of these Audiogoners' opinions. The only ones I do not respect are the wise crackers with nothing constructive to say. My "conscious/unconscious" reference is sincerely not designed to stoke the fire of contemptibility---another facsimile word of yours. At one time or another, all of us have not been fully conscious of certain goings on in our eveyday experiences. That's not necessarily a sin. I've been with people who have made me aware of things I hadn't noticed before, and so have you....As to the matter of glare, have you ever heard a sound that causes you to wince, and on repeated hearing may cause you to anticipate it with tenseness ? Though somewhat different and more painful, it's like having the dentist hit a nerve while drilling your teeth. Some components produce sounds that "hit the nerve", and with the kind of frequency that makes the listening experience more of a nervous than enjoyable one....The problem I hear is pretty much in the upper midrange. It's as if somewhat of a hump or overemphasis resides there. It's not a totally overbearing one, but a significant one nonetheless. I hear it on various record labels, and especially with horns and high strings in unison. With my previous preamp, this was not a factor, nor was the upper midrange deadened.....You asked if I have tried other equipment. Yes, and I intend to try more. I certainly have not thrown in the towel. As I said several times before, I consider the Cortese to be a superb sounding unit, the present issue notwithstanding......It seems to me that it is with the Divas that I hit the most sensitive nerve. You as much admit to this in your response. Zachzd, They were, and,I believe, still are, the finest speakers I have ever had the pleasure of owning, and I've owned quite a few (Kefs, Acoustats, Nestorovics, Martin Logans, to name some). My jaw remained dropped on the floor for so long that it became sore. Like you, I tried everything with them in an effort to deal with that upper midrange bump. Alas, I was unable to. But, I'm curious as to how they now sound to you. If you've got the sound to where you enjoy it, and I hope you do, I greatly envy you. Oh brother ! That sense of huge stage, the power, the marvelous low level underpinning---absolutely stupendous !.....As to my having "a sense of pride in finding flaws where no one else has before" (again, your words), that is not my intent, and could not be further from the truth. Man to man, imagine the kind of frustration you already alluded to with your Apogees. How do you think I feel with my situation ? Any different from you ? Yet, you seem to find my feelings in my situation to be unacceptable. Haven't you and I been experiencing essentially the same kind of frustration ?.....With regard to your next point, I never intended to imply that my homemade absorbtion panels were on the same level as those produced by professionals. They just work fine for me. And the assertion that I think I have "golden ears while everyone else has lead ears" is yours, not mine.....As to tube isolation---yes, you have a good point. I will try Herbie's......And, when you say that neither Maril555 nor I will "fix" our problems by throwing one set of tubes after another, you are probably right; but, at least, I have to learn that on my own.....Other comments from you: 'be sure to blame the preamp" and "You picks your poison." I won't respond to those bitter, misplaced statements. Rather, my wish is for you to return to your Apogee sound system in the honest hope that you thoroughly enjoy it. If you have something positive to tell me about those Apogees, I'd love to hear it. Take care for now, and I wish you the best of luck. |
Stiltskin, Zachzdb and Slowhand...Just reading your comments gives me a much better supportive feeling about hopefully finding some solution to the matter facing both maril555 and me. Very importantly, Slowhand is absolutely correct when he asserts (speaking for myself) that I have no intention whatsoever of badmouthing Supratek or hurting Mick's business. I will say again, as I have several times earlier, that I believe the Cortese to be a superb product. I would LOVE to be able to more fully enjoy it in the same way most others have and do, and I am still confident I can. I am still in the process of trying different things, and it's probably wisest for me to kind of lay low for awhile until I can hopefully come up with the proper medicine, so to speak. I just want to relate that I found a few interesting comments on Audio Asylum from Todd Krieger (type in Supratek Cortese in Search of Amp/Preamp Asylum and look at entry #18). His choice of words---"shout" and "bombastic"---could possibly be his way of describing what Maril555 and I have been hearing. From my listening perspective, the upper midrange in particular seems to have that somewhat overly emphatic characteristic which, with certain instruments, e.g., horns and massed strings, I hear as glare, and I haven't been comfortable with it. I heard it again last night, while trying both Mullard and Amperex rectifiers, Tungsol regulators, Siemens gold pin 7308s, KenRad 6SN7s, etc. all working together. I assume that some of you would agree with me that these are pretty decent tubes. I might try Todd's recommendations with the KT-66s, etc. I read in a some previous Audiogon threads where a few Supratek owners attained results similar to Todd's using the same approach he did. In any event, I'm also preparing to experiment with several other cables (interconnect and speaker). Well, enough for now. Got to get to bed. Sincere thanks again to you fellows. |
A degree in psychology tells one nothing about the person who received it. Beyond that, I will not waste any more time trying to get through to a stone wall. |
I want to say that I appreciate sincerely you Audiogoners who have expressed a desire to help out with the issue at hand, and I would imagine that Maril555 feels the same way. Jtgofish, your comments about silver cable might bear looking into. For those who might mistake my meaning, I have absolutely no quibbles about silver cable per se. I've used it before, and I'm currently using it, and my experiences with it so far have been very positive. In fact, I've been waiting to receive some Poiema 3 interconnect, and of course am curious about its interaction with my system. Anyhow, based on a suggestion from Ecclectique, whose views I have consistently respected, here's what makes up my system: My amps are Air Tight ATM-3 monoblocks, turntable is VPI HW-19 Mk 3, tonearm SME IV.Vi, speakers are Dunlavy SC-4s and a dipole, ribbon/driver hybrid, made by a former friend who worked in audio and whom I consider to be brilliantly talented. If any of you are responding with "hmmm, those speakers might be problem source", I will assert that over the dozen years I have owned and listened to them, I have never experienced the slightest sound or spectral imbalance coming from them. While being extended and detailed, the treble range is smooth and very well integrated into the rest of the system. I only heard glare if other components up the chain had it, and that was pretty uncommon with the other equipment I was using. I am using the Hovland 2 phono cable, Goertz TQ2 interconnect, and bi-wired Siltech speaker cable which was purchased about a dozen years ago, and whose designation or model I cannot recall. I have not previously had any problems soundwise with the Goertz or Siltech, however, if I had to speculate as to what, if anything else, might be a contributor to my current problem, I might single out as possiblities, either one or both of these cables working in tandem. Jtgofish, you could be on the mark. Oh, I forgot to mention, though I think I did in a previous entry, that I've been using the low output (1.5mv) version of the Grado Sonata. I just purchased, and am awaiting receipt of the Benz micro L2 wood cartridge. So, that's it, and many thanks to any others out there who can offer suggestions or comments---I welcome them. |
Eccletique...Thanks very much for your concerned and very interesting response. The audio experiences you relate cause me to smile, because I am quite familiar with several of the components (other than the Siltech and Goertz cables, the VPI 'table and the Sonata cartridge) that you mention. At one time, I also had Acoustat speakers, a Conrad Johnson MV-55 and a pair of Harvey Rosenberg's Moscode amps. A good friend of mine also had Moscodes, both the Audio Research SP-8 and 10 and Vandersteen speakers. But let me get to a few other points you mention. The KenRads I have are the black glass JAN Vt231s (a couple of very nice pairs). Today, I followed your suggestion, and bought an inexpensive, small spool of copper speaker cable. I also got hold of an inexpensive pair of ofc interconnects. The first thing I did was to replace the Goertz with the ofc ics, fresh out of the box. All I'll say at this moment is "interesting". I've now got them burning in on my Hagerman FryKleaner Pro. I want to wait until I get a good take on the interconnect before proceeding with the trial of the speaker cable. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I'd experienced the glare with both vinyl AND cd playback. I also found that almost regardless of tube changes, the same fundamental problem persisted. You, Jtgofish and most recently, Ikkyu2 have all given similar impressions and expressed similar feelings about silver vs. copper. Since I never before heard any problems with silver wire in my system, it's possible I may have lost sight about the kind(s)of sound differences produced by the introduction of different components into the audio chain. Based on my long experience with audio, you'd think I'd know better. I think many of us still find ourselves surprised and even shocked sometimes at the seemingly "illogical" sounds we hear listening to a system that just had even one component substituted for another. It seems, at times, that a good deal of the objective data out there can prove to be somewhat irrelevant in terms of what we are led to expect vs. what we actually get, and in addition, whether or not we are satisfied with what we get. Will update later. |
I just wanted to respond to the well intended comments Stevem1960, who says, "...Opus88 describes the sound of horns...with emphasized upper mids on his Cortese. I would have thought this is how horns are *supposed* to sound.....It is feasible that you are actually hearing for the first time how these instruments *should* sound...and perhaps you are being unnerved by the experience ? " Unnerved ? Yes, that is true. How horns are supposed to sound ? You are partially correct. Horns are certainly capable of producing strident sounds when called for, however, I have been hearing blare at times in passages where I have never heard it in the same passages of these compositions performed live in symphony concerts. I also have heard these passages reproduced in my component system, prior to the introduction of the Cortese, WITHOUT the "supposed to sound" glare. I've heard horns and massed strings sound urgent, vibrant, assertive, ambient AND wonderfully musical and naturally flowing all at the same time. I was able to relax while simultaneously enjoying impressively dynamic and electrically alive transients, sometimes projected with a stunning sense of grandeur. I had that kind of musical reproduction in my sound system a number of years back, then lost it. I'm confident I will get it back again, and WITH the Cortese. A paradigm shift, in the usual sense, is not going to correct the issue I am dealing with, and I certainly will not tell myself that I need to change what my own ears are telling me. Maril555's point about trying to convince himself "...that what I was hearing is the way actual instruments should sound like...But at times it simply was 'too much'" is understood very well by me. Sometimes we lose sight of the fact that all recorded music is made possible by the utilization of a vast array of electronic equipment---capacitors, resistors, wires, etc., not to mention the manipulations by sound engineers during that recording process. AFTER all that, our home or studio components take over the job. Under such circumstances, neutrality or "correct" sound possibly might be somewhat illusive. And finally, there's the listener's own subjective preferences in terms of how HE wants the illusion of live music presented to him in his living or sound room. I hope I may regain the kind of illusion that pleases me. |
Stevem1960: Some of your last comments certainly are refreshing. Your reference to the sound of the little Marantz in comparison to the $5000 cd replay system and the $2000 worth of fancy cables probably strikes the kind of chord that sounds familiar to a number of others out there. ( I just noticed Tvad's admission, for example.) I also feel it sort of mirrors one of my recent comments (3-26) about objective data or numbers sometimes proving to be irrelevant in terms of what we are led to expect or believe vs. what we actually get. And yes, sometimes things do sound just right, but then that can't leave well enough alone tendency rears its ugly head. That's part of the explanation of how or why I lost what I once had. Oh well, back to the quest for peace of mind sound. |
Good news---the glare problem I've had with my Supratek Cortese preamp seems to have been eliminated. The preamp paid a visit to Kevin Covi, who told me he was certain he found the reason for the annoying overemphasis I was hearing in the mid to upper midrange. It appears his assessment was correct---a faulty operating RIAA capacitor in the phono stage. I got the unit back today, and after having listened to a number of my "test" records for assessing my system's sound, I found no evidence of the glare unless it was actually on the record. We all have our favorite listening test records, and are well aware of their positives and negatives. In the most constructive sense, what I've heard so far coincides with my previous listening experiences with these records before I had even purchased the Cortese. I'll need more time of course before I can safely feel I'm fully settled back into relaxed listening, but I'm certainly feeling I'm getting back on course. Thanks especially to those of you Audiogoners who, with your support, wished me well. And, of course, my considerable thanks to Kevin of Supratek. |
Hi Marill555. I'm still "alive and kicking". Yes, I recall well that time when some considered us the equivalent of partners in crime when we detailed the problems we had with the sound of our Suprateks. I want to also say, though, that there were some concerned and sympathetic Agoners who came to our aid because they felt we were being treated unfairly. Obviously, all people owning the same component never respond in exactly the same way(s), and when you and I "bucked the tide" some out there got pretty nasty. Sorry, but no component is a sacred cow. In my response you sited above from 3/13/07, I indicated I had not yet tried the 6SN7 Tungsols, Ken Rad black glass,etc. in an effort to neutralize the glare I had heard with my Cortese. Well, eventually I did shell out big bucks for those tubes, and still found no respite from the leering glare. After trying a gaggle of other components, including other speakers, I reached the point where I said, "That's enough". The rest is history. I had no ill will whatsoever toward Mick. His preamp just didn't satisy me in my system. To others who have enjoyed the Suprateks in their systems, I am happy for them, and I sincerely hope they continue to derive great pleasure from Mick's creations. As for me, I am extremely happy with the preamp I now own. It's always a joy when someone finds real satisfaction with the sound produced by their system or any individual component. In closing, I hope your money issue with Mick can be resolved soon, Ilia. Good listening too all! |
