Just curious...anybody ever do an A-B between a Syrah/Chenin/Cortese and a Hovland HP-100 with MC? How did the Supratek stack up? |
Greetings, Supratek community!
I am not new to this thread, having come across it a couple years ago. Which planted the seed in my mind to someday get a Syrah (now, of course, the Chenin).
Well, I just picked up my Chenin from a fellow A-goner. Despite my high expectations, I'm stunned with what it reveals in the music. And obviously pleased.
My system is already pretty resolved: Nottingham Spacedeck with Anna arm and Benz Ebony H cartridge, Audio Aero Prima CDP, Belles 150A Reference amp, ICs are all Kimber Select 1021 and speaker cable is Kimber BiFocal XL. Two dedicated circuits (amp, other), Shunyata Hydra 2 (amp) and Hydra 4, and all power cords are Shunyata Taipan Helix. The weak spot in the system (or so I thought), was my speakers: Kef Reference Model Twos.
I had been using an Audible Illusions Modulus 3A MM phono preamp, tweaked with gold fuses (from The Cable Company) and upgraded Super Low Noise Yugoslavian NOS 6922s (from Roger Mojesky of RAM). The AI was damn good sounding.
System was very open, broad soundstage, good imaging on CD or vinyl (I listen to 75% vinyl). Bass was tight, but not as extended. Highs were good, but not what I've heard with a good ribbon tweeter setup (like Dali Helicon).
What motivated me to change, you say? Well, mostly a desire to experiment with lower output MC cartridges without breaking the bank on a phono stage or Hovland pre. And all the Supratek hype on this thread gave me some confidence the Chenin could perform.
So what difference did the Chenin make? A HUGE one! A level of detail and clarity that astounds. More vertical soundstage and more depth. An ability to relay the information on CD that brings it much closer in sonic quality and enjoyability to vinyl. My wife was upstairs in her office when I was running the Chenin through it's first paces. When she came down, I asked her if she could hear the difference. She said, "Yes, it sounds clearer."
In fact, so much more information is being passed through the Chenin, that I am no longer anxious to upgrade from the Kefs. That vintage (1994-96) of the Kef reference Series (especially the Two and Three) are probably the best speaker they ever made. With the Chenin, the highs (cymbals on jazz trios) are much higher and crisper, with more air. The bass is more extended. Not down into the low 20's, but FULL all the way down to the 40 hz range these speakers go. I may yet upgrade (looking at the Helicon 800's, VR-4 jrs, maybe Chapman), but there's no rush.
So with that introduction, I'd like to ask the community for some advice.
What's missing: While there's overall more sonic detail in the Chenin, the imaging is less precise and focused. A vocalistor guitar sounds like they're in a certain spot, but then the notes sort of smear out to left and right as the music modulates, rather than staying in the same focus range. Is this normal?
The soundstage width has shrunk. My speakers are 9.5 feet apart (listening position is 10' away). Soundstage used to extend 2-4 feet outside of the speakers. Now it seems to be confined between.
Tubes that came with the unit are all stock: EH 6SN7, Sovtek 5881, Philips 6J6, an 'FSCM' 6922, and Mullard rectifier 5AR4.
I have some 6922s to play with: Amperex, Matsushita, and the RAMs.
I read with interest the suggestion by ecclectique that changing the rectifier tube to a metal base GZ-34 was the single most significant tube upgrade. Then I checked the tube world website and saw it was $350+! Is it that good?
So, stiltskin, slipknot1, fiddler, ecclectique, others:
...any suggestions how to regain the precise imaging and/or wider soundstage?
Thanks in advance,
- John
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Hi, Slipknot1. Thanks much for your insights!
My speaker placement has been stable throughout all of my equipment upgrades to this point, not by neglect or stubbornness, but because there hasn't been any need to change. Leads me to think that the decreased imaging/focus has something to do with the Chenin with its stock tubes.
I will probably give a try to adjusting speaker placement if no other logical options present themselves, but from my previous experience with the sonic effects of changing tubes, it just seemed to me that tubes might be the starting point.
Make no mistake...I am totally thrilled with the dramatic improvement in sonic performance of the Supratek Chenin! Like most, I'm just hoping to 'get it all.'
Hoping for others with helpful experience to chime in!
Two other questions ('cause I'm not an electrical engineer):
1. I know the 6922 is part of the phono stage. Is that just the only one pair? Put another way, which are in the line stage?
2. Just what does the rectifier tube do to the rest of the system sonically??
Best regards, John |
Thanks Amandarae and Dilly. I will look into the Sovtek KT66. At under $50 bucks there's not much risk.
Best, John |
Just a report back on the replacement of my stock regulators (Sovtek 5881). The Sovtek KT66's have settled in and the image wandering I was experiencing is basically gone. From what I've been reading, it would seem to have less to do with the tube type (plenty of endorsements for the Sovtek 5881) and more with condition (alas, I don't have a tester).
Also put in the Bendix 6106 rectifier to replace the Sovtek 5AR4. I think these take many hours to break in, but after about 3 it seems better..clearer, more solid in the low end; the highs seem a little cut off, but again, it's early.
I got it from Tube Depot and the box has a label on it that said: "This tube is a Bendix 6106 / 5Y3GT. Richardson mis-labeled them as 5AR4 years ago. This tube is NOT a 5AR4." Obviously, the tube is labeled 5AR4. Has anybody encontered this?
Best regards, |
Ecclectique, thanks for your VERY helpful analysis.
And for the helpful vocabulary: "image wandering"...that's exactly what it is! The pianist strikes the note and you hear it left center, but then it spreads out, sometimes to the left and right, sometimes just to the right. Similarly with sax or coronet. When this happens with most of the instruments in the music, the soundstage is reverberating within itself. (There does seem to be more focus with high impact, high frequency sounds like snare drum and high hat.)
Not surprisingly, this quality is less a negative with orchestral work...probably because it simulates some of the reverberation in a concert hall. But for jazz it is crazy-making.
My rectifier (stock) is Sovtek 5AR4. It says "Made in Russia" and "04 04" on it, the latter being the production date I suppose. Looks like it's "Bye bye Sovtek!"
So I've read your glowing endorsement for the Philips Miniwatt GZ34, Made in Holland, 1957 as the best. At $350 it should be. Does one really need to spend that kind of $$ to make the Chenin sing? Are any of the $100 NOS up to the task? Where would you say the point of diminishing returns is?
I'm ready to take the next step.
Thx, John
PS - Oh, in answer to your question. The image wandering is for both CD and phono, but it is more pronounced with phono (maybe cause the sound is going though more tubes?). |
Thanks Dilly and all.
The Sovtek KT66's arrived today (from Tube World) and made an immediate improvement out of the box over the stock Sovtek 5881's in the Chenin. After an only an hour they're really settling in. Greater clarity, less reverberant 'mush', better focus. We're getting there.
Bendix 6106 rectifier is on its way here from Tube Depot. Will report back soon.
Back to the music . . . |
Amandarae: RE "...you can always use a tee to change the load for different values not readily available from the switch settings..." [47K, 1K, 100, 10]
What's a 'tee' and how does one use it to set the load between the four settings on the slider switch?
Thanks! |
Hi, all,
I haven't posted in a month. Can't believe how much has been written!
Just wanted to report back on my Chenin (yes, still lovin' it).
I had replaced the stock rectifier with the Bendix 6106 and the regulators with Sovtek KT66's. A small investment really with huge improvement in clarity, detail, imaging, bass. I think most of the long-term experienced posters on this thread would agree that these are the big bang for the buck improvements. And the other good news is that it mostly solved the 'image wandering' that I was experiencing when I first got the unit.
I also picked up a NOS Philips Miniwatt GZ34. The bass is incredible, huge and amazingly tight. But the music seems a bit more constrained overall than with the Bendix. I understand that rectifiers take a long while to break in, so am going to have to wait a bit for a real shoot out with the Bendix. Anybody out there compared the Mullard GZ34 against the Philips and Bendix? Your observations?
I've played around with the phono tubes quite a bit. The stock 6922's were labeled "FSCM" on the box and nothing on the tube itself. I have no idea what they are. I tried a whole bunch of phono tubes, finally settling on a pair of Amperex 7308 white label PQ's.
Now, for those of you who can't find or can't afford 7308 PQ, I have REALLY good news! The Cable Company (aka fatwyre.com) found some Russian military NOS 6HN23-EB that are drop in replacements for the 6922, 6DJ8 or 7308 tube. They had them for $60 each low noise and $90 each for cryo'd ultra low noise -- but, have just put them on special for half price!!! I bought a matched pair of the cryo ultra low noise for $90.
After a warm up listening session for my ears, dropped them in in place of my Amperex 7308's. Holy s--- Batman! They are THAT good. I have about 6 hours on them now, so I'd say they're half broken in. By the end of the weekend, I should be able to pop the Amperex back in and really compare.
But what I can say for now is that they are about 95% as good replacement for a legendary tube at a fraction of the price (if you can find it). Their bass extension is ever so slightly less full, but they have all the air, detail, crystal clarity and 'presence' of this classic tube. I am going to buy another pair to have on the shelf as backup.
Go to http://www.fatwyre.com/newspecials.html for more info.
[oops...when getting the link above, I checked the page and it looks like they changed the price of the cryo from what I go mine for, but you can still get a matched pair of low noise for $90 - a great deal]
I am using the EH 6SN7 and from many of the comments I've read, will probably stay there. However, the stock are the silver pin. I've seen (on eBay) gold pin cryo'd EH 6SN7's and I contacted that vendor to see if they sell matched pairs. Answer: no. Does anyone know of a source of EH gold pin matched pairs, with or without cryo treatment?
OK, last item. I have a problem with my mute switch, and it seems to be affecting playback. Power up sequence is standard: with switch set to mute (back), turn on preamp, wait for tube warm up, turn on power amp, wait for for it to load, turn off mute by moving switch forward, play music.
Sometimes the switching of the mute switch causes a popping sound through my speakers, other times...NO sound comes out of my left speaker! Flipping it again once or twice and the sound comes through both speakers.
That is a nuisance, but the real problem part is that I still get some image shift in music playback. A vocalist's voice that should be in dead center stage is a foot or two or three to the right. In fact, the whole soundstage (if it isn't centered) seems to be right-side weighted. It is never to the left. Happens with both CD and records.
Anybody else ever have a problem with the toggle switches on their Supratek? I'm about ready to e-mail Mick and ask him to send another switch. Any other recommendations?
What a great community! You guys are the best. |
Hello, Powers,
My experience may be helpful to you. I got my Chenin in early December. It had the stock Sovtek 5AR4. From the recommendations in this thread, I bought the Bendix 6106. Huge improvement. Break in is slow, but not too bad. I later bought a NOS Miniwatt GZ34 (got a good deal, $225). The bass is super deep and tight. But something sounds constrained. It may be break in related, so I'm running it a while to see if it opens up. Then will compare to the Bendix.
Meanwhile, I don't think you can go wrong with the Bendix to start. Slowhand, Ecclectique and the other seasoned tube rollers here have been super helpful and won't steer you wrong. |
Allanblissett, thanks for sharing the tip. I'll check my 6NS7's and let you know what happens. |
Pablo, there are alot of good phono tubes out there.
I'm using Amperex 7308 PQ white label, which are pretty hard to find now. But, see my 1/19 post in this thread on some Russian NOS 6HN23-EB's that are only $90 for a matched pair cryo'd and VERY close to being as good as the 7308. Call The Cable COmpany and ask for John (he's a totally tube knowledgeable sales person).
Best regards, |
After extensive sampling, I gave up 'tuning' or tweaking with power cords after finding the Shunyata Helix series. They are detailed, fast and, most importantly, DEAD NEUTRAL. I have two dedicated circuits, thus a Hydra-2 and Hydra-4 and five 1 meter Taipan Helix Alpha PCs. This setup provides truly clean power and allows all of my equipment - including the Chenin - to perform at it's designed maximum. Caelin, Grant, and all the folks at Shunyata are extraordinarily knowledgeable, helpful, and accessible. Best price on their stuff is from The Cable Company (aka fatwyre.com). |
Yep. The plastic fuse holder pops out with a screwdriver. Very simple. The gold fuses from The Cable Company (www.fatwyre.com) are a very worthwhile tweak for $35. |
I've been away from this post for a few weeks. Quite surprised (and disappointed) with the rancorous tone in some posts.
Anyway, I echo the comments offered to Opus88 and Maril555 to look a system contributions, especially silver. Not that copper is better, but some silver wires can react with the wiring in other components in one's system.
To wit, when I first bought my Belles 150A Reference amp, I couldn't believe my ears. It was awful! I was in shock - what were all those folks in the positive reviews talking about! I really wanted to sell it quick. But reason said I ought to look a bit deeper first.
I was using Kimber KCAG interconnects at the time, and with previously excellent results. I spoke to Dick Diamond at Kimber and he said he suspected the silver in it's present construction in the KCAG was reacting to the amp. He suggested I try the Select Series, initially in copper, and then in the hybrid if that worked out. I put in a KS-1010 (3 copper strands) between pre and amp and the glare and roughness immediately went away. I bought a KS-1011 (six copper strands) and put it in between my CD and pre, and the sound improved again. I took a deep breath, and bought a KS-1021 (two silver strands and 4 copper). The sound was even clearer. No glare. Finally upgraded to another 1021 between CD and pre. Better yet. Confident now that the Kimbers would work well in my system (YMMV), I went for further synergy and got Kimber Bi-Focal XLs for the speakers. Further improvement.
When I bought the Chenin, I was curious as to whether my cables would work well with it. They do. The reason you see so few Kimber Select interconnects for sale used is because for most people, they are the end of the line.
Another cable experience that might be of help: If your power cables are not neutral, they can liven up your Supratek too. A long time back, I tried the Electraglide cords. They compensated for some dullness in system caused by a Panamax power conditioner. When I changed to a neutral power conditioner (Shunyata Hydra), whoa! was everything bright and uneven. At the suggestion of Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata, I neutraled-out the system with some Kimber PK-10s (a basic Belden cord) and A-B'd the Hydra and Panamax. That identified the Panamax as the deadener and the Hydra as neutral. Went to Shunyata Taipan Helix cords all round (also neutral, but very fast). That eliminated power cords and conditioning as a source of system imbalance.
I should also mention that I also was not happy with the top end in the Tungsol 5881s in my Chenin. I didn't have glare, but the high frequencies seemed over-emphasized and the low end under-emphasized. The Sovtek KT-66s were better. I eventually went to NOS RCA 6L6As, which are balanced from top-to-bottom like the KT-66s, but more detailed.
Hope this helps. And good luck!
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I use Dali Helicon 800's with my Chenin. Power amp is Belles 150A Reference. A very uncolored, neutral combination. |
Pablo, I just got a new Airy 3X. I love it! It really sings with my Chenin, using NOS RCA 6J6As and Amperex 7308 PQ gold pins in the phono stage. |
I want to thank all of you on this forum for your good will and support. You are a wonderful community. I have loved my Supratek Chenin over the last 7 months but, alas, am moving on (to Joule Electra).
Meanwhile, I have some great tubes that some of you may be interested in:
NOS Phillips Miniwatt GZ34 (100 hours, just broken in) @$250 (gives the deepest, tightest bass you can hear on the Supratek)
NOS RCA 6L6 regulators $124 pair (wonderfully precise and musical)
NOS RCA 6J6A to replace the M8081 in the phono stage $80 pair (these really kick butt over the M8081, incredible dynamics and clarity)
NOS RCA 6NS7 gray glass $50 pair
You'll find my Chenin listed, so tell your friends.
Happy listening, |
