Preamp Deal of the Century

Sorry, last post should have specified GZ37 rectifier!
Si

Simon,

I tried the GZ37. It was even mushier and muddier than the Mullard GZ34/5AR4. It was a total waste money, IMHO. The overall dynamics were very weak compared to the 6106.

In my system, the 6106 adds much cleaner and more immediate dynamics with a much more palpable 3D presentation than either the GZ34 or the GZ37. No comparison in the soundstage. YMMV

Hi Gang. Simon, Yes, the Bendex 6106 takes about twice the time of any other indirect rectifiers to power up. It also requires a way more run in time than any of the others to sound it's best. Regarding the Gz37, I completely agree with Fiddler here 100%. It's just not the rectifier for the Supratek and he has described it's sound in the supratek to a T. Mind you... Your reference to a Phillips Mini-watt gz37, which I have never tried and wasn't even aware that Phillips made one. My experience was with the nos Gz-37 made by Mullard and I am not much of a fan. In my rig, the bendex is the winner in both the syrah and the cortese with the metal base gz34 a very close second.

Cheers guys,
Ecclectique - sorry it's a maullard made philips - link to ad for your info
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?accstube&1125609987
Just bought another Mullard gz34 instead.
I truly hope it is better than the one I have at the moment,
which must be a dud as it makes the Syrah sound terrible.
I suffered it for a few days thinking it must come better but could not bear it and put the Sovtek 5ar4 back in.
I will keep an eye out for a bendix.
Thanks again.
Simon

The Bendix tubes I mentioned that are available in my previous post are now gone.

Thanks

The GZ33 and GZ37 are notably fuller sounding than the GZ34 or 6106. I did not find either rectifier to be muddy or lacking in dynamics or clarity while they were in my cabernet. Of all the rectifiers in my system the metal-base GZ34 was best when judged by the articulation of the notes and preservation of detail and harmonics. I didn't give any consideration to freq response or tonal balance in making my personal selection. All of the rectifiers sounded good or acceptable in my system but the metal-base GZ34 was a standout.

Philips never made a GZ37. What you have is a rebranded Mullard.

For the record, my 6106 never matured to something I appreciated. I have recommitted to my double D getter metal base GZ34.

6SN7s really aren't anymore prone to microphony then other tubes. It's really the fault of the Supratek implementation. I have never heard a line stage so sensitive to tube noise then the Supratek. When shopping for Supratek 6SN7s, request "phono grade" tubes if your dealer can test for microphony.

Just bought another Mullard gz34 instead.
I truly hope it is better than the one I have at the moment,
which must be a dud as it makes the Syrah sound terrible.
I suffered it for a few days thinking it must come better but could not bear it and put the Sovtek 5ar4 back in.
I will keep an eye out for a bendix.
Thanks again.
Simon

You are into something here. Although the Mullards are great in my Chenin (Metal GZ34), you have to remember that when Mick listened to the preamp, especially the phono, the parameters were adjusted with the conventional tubes in service.

For example, the right resistance to properly biased the JFET's etc. If you open the preamp, you will see that there are rheostat's (blue) on some junctions that their primary fuction was to "tweaked" or "optimized" a certain parameter(s) (i.e. voltage or current)to voiced out the preamp.

...just a thought...

I tried a GZ37 in my Syrah and did not like it at all. I experienced the same thing Fiddler did. My favorite rectfiers are Bendix 6106, Metal base GZ34, and Tung Sol 5Y3 (I know it will shorten the life of the other tubes). When I use it, I take David's advice and put in a GZ34 to warm up the pre and then turn it off, switch to the 5Y3 and turn it right back on so that the other tubes are already warmed up. I only do this on weekends when I will leave the pre on all weekend. There is something magical about the sound of that Tung Sol 5Y3. I will try the Mazda 5Y3 soon.

Hi all,
thanks Slowhand for the pointer re the Bendix.
What I'm confused about is the 6106/5Y3WGT directly heated, like the Tungsol or is it indirectly heated ala the Mazda ?
Sorry for being thick but I'm new to tubes and really don't want to go pulling them in & out all the time.
I'm amazed that the rectifier makes such a difference - any other pres I've had were untroubled as long as the rectifier was functional but the line stage tubes made readily obvious differences to the sound.
Thanks Simon

Hello Simon74,

The Bendix 6106 in indirectly heated.

You guys may think I'm nuts, but I just recently purchased a low-noise pair of EH 6SN7's to try on a lark. One of my '52 Syl "Bad Boys" that I had in place was spitting (it cleared up fortunately).

I have another pair of '52 Syls and two pair of Ken Rads, plus a pair of Tung Sol Round Plates on the way, but I was just curious about the EH 6SN7's.

Well, after about 30 hours of burn-in, I swear, I think they are better than the '52 Syls or the Ken Rads (at least in my system). Excellent, tight bass, liquid mid-range and extened, grain-free highs and very detailed.

I was expecting them to have sub-par bass and to be somewhat etched with grainy highs. Wrong on all counts.

I remember a long time ago, soon after I got my Supratek, I posted an opinion that the rectifier and the regulators have a much greater affect on the sound than the 6SN7's. I am still convinced of that.

I think the EH's are better than the '52 Syls or the Ken Rads, but only slightly so. I have to listen really critically to determine a difference. Time will tell about the Tung Sols, but I know I won't be buying anymore NOS 6SN7's for my Supratek any time soon.

You guys can all jump in and tell me I am crazy now, but that's the way I hear it.

Fiddler,

Thanks for the report. Is it the Gold or the regular black base EH-6SN7?

I am in your camp also. After trying Sylvania 6F6G's, GEC KT-66, Gold Lion KT-66, RCA 6L6GC Black Plates, and Tungsol 5881, to my ears the Sovtek KT-66 is the better tube. I tried it after reading a post here that Mick recommended it to an owner. The tubes takes a while to settle (50 to 100 hours maybe) but when it does, they are beautiful regulators on my Chenin.

I will order the EH as soon as I see your response.

Thanks again!

Amandarae,

They are the regular black base.

I know they make a gold "pin" version, but I have heard that the gold pins are actually the "standard version" with the pins just painted gold. After inserting the pins into a tube socket once, the gold is supposedly scraped off.

I purchased the tubes from Upscale Audio. I paid for the "Private Reserve" (which might be complete BS), but they are very quiet at the moment. Only $10 more per tube for the "Private Reserve", so why not?

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=53&catid=46

Let me know your impressions. I will be very curious.

I am stunned at how good this pair sounds in my Supratek. Assuming they hold up, as I said before, I have purchased my last pair of NOS 6SN7's. (Well, I haven't heard the Tung Sols yet.)

fiddler:

my chardonnay shipped with eh 6sn7. from what i recall, the sound was really good. my cary monos are also using 2 eh 6sn7's. i am currently running some black glass ken rads in the chardonnay. your post reminded me that i haven't actually done any critical listening between the two.

Fiddler,

The last time I spoke with Mick he highly recommended the EH6sn7's. He said the has hundreds of pairs of NOS tubes, and he like the EH6sn7's better. I was going to order a pair. Guess I better do it.

Thanks Fiddler,

I live about 15 miles away from Kevin (Upscale Audio). As much as I want to avoid it (I can't help myself buying more than I intend to)I guess it is time to visit the castle of Mr. Deal.

Ola Kevin! Here I come......

Mick asked me to pass on a message to everyone. I was talking with him about the EH6sn7's which he is putting in all the new 6sn7 based preamps. Long story short, he says he is building and voicing the preamps to the tubes that he is putting in them. He is not fond of the NOS tubes that most of us use, and he does not recommend many of the non-standard tubes that are being used in the Suprateks. He said he is considering making the warranty void if damage is done to a preamp from using non-standard tubes. Mick wanted me to pass on to everyone that his feeling about NOS tubes is that they do not sound better, only different than the tubes that he ships the Suprateks with. He feels that the only people that are really benefiting from NOS tubes are the people that are charging outrageous prices for them. If the NOS tubes are not perfectly matched, he feels we are degrading the sound of the preamps. Mick really likes the EH6sn7 tubes and feels they are every bit as good as NOS tubes at a much more reasonable price.
Mick asked me to pass this on to everyone, so I am following his wishes. I also asked him if he had tried the Welbourne labs attenuaters and he said he has recieved them, but has not put them in a unit yet as they are very large and he has not yet figured a way to fit them in the Cortese.

I mentioned Mick's thoughts, albeit in less detail, in another thread about 2 weeks ago. Maybe your posting will get more attention and stop all of this unnecessary experimentation.

Oh no!

That's right Ray. As you would say "Hee Hee".

Fiddler,

Please let us know how the EH6sn7's stack up against the Tung Sol when you get them. I will be very interested.

Great post Slowhand!

You are into something here. Although the Mullards are great in my Chenin (Metal GZ34), you have to remember that when Mick listened to the preamp, especially the phono, the parameters were adjusted with the conventional tubes in service.

For example, the right resistance to properly biased the JFET's etc. If you open the preamp, you will see that there are rheostat's (blue) on some junctions that their primary fuction was to "tweaked" or "optimized" a certain parameter(s) (i.e. voltage or current)to voiced out the preamp

....exactly what I meant when I posted this a few days ago

Sandro,

What are your first impressions of your new Cortese? have not heard from you. Guess you are too busy listening to post. Mick said he has 2 preamps to do and then he will build mine. Yahoo!

Slowhand ,Sounds like your waits almost over!I put all the stock tubes back in my Chardonnay last night,they sound very good,but i still prefer my NOS tubes,but if i had to live with the stock tubes i would still be very happy!

Slowhand, I believe that one of the two preamps Mick is doing now is mine. I can barely stand the wait. I started this process many months ago. Hope it is worth it.

Hi Slowhand,Hi All,
yes, you're right, I 'm too busy to listening . I have to tell you that I still cannot say that I like it more than the "old " ARC LS5 mk2 GNSC ref. mod, Siemens 7308s outfitted with. Both are great, the Cortese doesn't "kill" my ARC at all.Consider that I liked my ls 5 more than a REF 2 mk2 and that the Cortese is 200 hours old.
I need a bit longer time ,my impression now is that my ls5 is a bit more on the romantic side than the Cortese, where this one has a little better dynamic. Soundstaging is large and deep with both units,there is a lot of air between performers.Music flows with easy,I often find myself listening to the music rather than to the pre's differences. What I mean is that these two pre's anyway are showing the features peculiar to what a great pre must have. No trouble at all in bass, mids and highs, only little different tastes.
The phono section is awesome to my ears, but I have few hours(10/15)on it .My early pre phono was an ARC sp11 mk2 with nos Amperex 6922s. The only tube rolling I'm going to get is just the two 6922s, infact I have two Siemens 7308s to try.
The long waiting is well worth, this is one of the best pre you can get, not only for the moneys. It also looks a lot better than on the pics and is dead silent.
Let us know when you'll get yours.
Sorry for my limited English.
Sandro

Interesting. When did you order your preamp? I placed an order for a Cabernet in January, but have asked for some "mods". I exchanged e-mails with Mick late last week, but still no mention of a delivery time frame. Can you let me know when you ordered so I have a reference? Thanks.

Hi Sandro. You have another 200 to 300 hours of run in time before the supratek really finds it's stride. You must try the premium 7308's you are using in the ARC for the phono stage in supratek. It's an interesting comparison though with the ARC,I have a modded out ARC sp-10 mk2 that I still very much adore and will never sell it.It was my first true reference preamp that just simply trounced everything else back in the day. A wonderful voice to be sure, however my cortese betters it in every parameter and the line stage isn't really even close. The mod by Great Northern Sound certainly raised the bar for the ARC stuff,particularly in the bass response department[the achilles heel of the SP-10],but by contrast... the resolution and decay in the bottom end of the supratek is at a whole higher level. I have yet to hear any other tubed preamp compare in this area and still shake my head every day.

Larryrosen,

I ordered my Cortese in late October of last year. I have 2 preamps in front of me, them Mick does mine.

Larryrosen,
I ordered my Cortese about the same time as Slowhand.

Hey! What happened to Sounds_Real_Audio posts and the replies????

Sorry! Wrong Thread!

I think I screwed up!

I just got a pair of NOS Tung Sol Round Plates in today and I don't like them at all. They are rather lean in the mid-range and somewhat bright in the high frequencies.

I am hoping these symptoms disappear after the tubes have some time on them. But to be honest, after about two hours, I couldn't take it any longer and I put the EH 6SN7's back in. Viola, I had the music back.

I would appreciate hearing your experience with the Round Plates.

Thanks in advance.

Fiddler,

Are you sure you have round plates and not just tung sol 6sn7's? My tung sol round plates sound fantastic from top to bottom. Smooth in the top end, great midrange and solid, deep bass. Mine sounded this way from the day I got them. BWhite once posted pictures of the Tung Sol round plates on this thread, but I doubt if I could find it. I will try. If I do, I will let you know where to find them. Guess I need to get a pair of the EH6sn7's to see how they stack up.

Hullo from Scotland !
Got a nos Mazda/ mullard from Holland ? my other GZ34 MUST BE DUFF because after 2 days this is a huge improvment.
Screechy, nasty to start with but just gets better & better in every respect than the Sovtek - not by a huge amount & not to slag the Sovtek - really shines at the frequency extremes though in comparison.
Wan't to try the Bendix but the shipping is more than the tube.

Fool that I am, I have missed the obvious - there are some very nice NOS tubes available in the UK for buttons as opposed to the rather silly prices on Gon & Ebay.
Suggest Supratekies from the same neighbourhoods get together - NOS Mullard GZ34s are readily available for around $44 which seems ? reasonable.
Quite happy to send gifts to the states and stop people screwing everyone.
Set of brown/red base CBS/RCAs coming (6sn7s)so I should never need another set of these - I hope so,I've spent more on valves than I did on the amp.
Still it's fun & way the nicest most rewarding bit of kit I've ever owned - I listen, I look and I think that should have cost way more than it did !!
Now that I have spent days tweaking all the tables - the phono stage is - enlightening ? never had to spend six hours tweaking the azimuth but the that was because I could never hear the results properly.

Mick for PM of Oz says me!
The wife says they're lovely but couldn't the c--t make them a bit friggin smaller, Aussie Git !
3 weeks down the line she listened to 2 & half songs then started on"What does that bit do? - is it absolutley necessary - blah, blah" Last time I ever ask her opinion - thank the lord she will never tell the differnce when a Cortese or Cabernet appears !!!!!!!

First thing I did right out of the box was to compare them to pics. Yep, they appear the real deal.

Maybe they just need some time on them, but I did read another post in the Asylum where a guy said they were bright in his system.

I also received an email earlier today from another guy who said " have used a couple of different pair of round plates in my Syrah. Both noisy, lousy bass, I don't know what the hoopla is about. I now use Hytrons. Pretty good."

So like always, so much is system and listener dependent.

I will eventually give them some more burn-in time, but I am really enjoying the EH 6SN7's.

I should get my TSRP next week im hoping they sound good,if not i should not have a problem selling them,,also getting a pr of RCA grey glass VT231,,

Mick & tube rolling: I totally understand his position... he is a manufacturer and it would be illogical to build a product which is optimized for rare tubes - plus, he cannot spend all his time answering email questions about what tube works & which do not, what tubes sound the best and which do not.

Admonishing tube rolling is the only logical answer.

Every system is different and so is every tube - this is perhaps one reason why everyone has their favorite tube combo.

Regardless of how Mick "tunes" a Supratek to sound, there will always be something (tube combination) which sounds better for each system. Unfortunately, there is a lot of cancellation & reinforcement which goes on in building an audio system - to create balance - a simple example would be a bright system being made better with warmer tubes. This is a necessary part of audio & regardless of what Mick says, or how he tunes a Supratek (and for which tubes) there will always be compensation required (or equalization) in order to truly optimize a system. Mick can only tune a preamp based on HIS system and room. Plain and simple, HIS listening environment is different than anyone else's.

Yes.. different tubes can change the operating parameters of the Supratek. In my experience, changing those parameters were a necessary part of getting the most out of the Supratek. If Mick spent time "tuning" my preamps, then obviously he didn't spend enough time on important tuning details like asking me how I liked my music to sound.. or asking about my other components, etc. As good as Mick is, his tuning can never be as good as mine - sorry Mick.

Since it is impossible for him to know all of us, and listen to all our systems, Mick must make assumptions in his tuning. Those assumptions will most likely not work for the vast majority of us.

One of the greatest strengths of the Supratek is the fact that it can be tweaked so easily with tube rolling.

Bwhite. Amen!

My Cortese is in transit. Finally. This weekend should be fun.

.
Doc,
.
I am sure you will love your Cortese. Just remember, it improves dramactically as breaks in (and then later, much later there is tube rolling.......more fun).
.
Congratulations.....Enjoy !
.
Rgds,
Larry
.

Thanks Cello,
There is certainly a ton of info in this thread on rolling tubes in Supratek preamps. I hope a can make some sense of it all. Going through all the posts seems dificult at best.
I will break in the Cortese with the supplied tubes for several months. After break in I would like to try a few NOS tubes. The thing is my Cortese is one of only two SIGNATURE models Mick is making. It has two regulator circuits in the power supply. One set of tubes for the line stage ans one for the phono stage as I understand it.
This should be fun if I can figure out which tubes to try and where to start. Although I have an all tube system I have limited knowlege on this subject.

Hi Docsavage,

sure I bought a Quicksilver pre from you, are you in Hurricane country ?(lost your address).
Leave well alone till it breaks in and treat yourself to a set of HT cyberlinks - till I installed these, I was fooling with and spending money on tubes with NO idea what my Syrah was really capable of !

OK its a lot of money but unless you can actually hear the differnce, why spend shedloads on NOS tubes most of which will be noisy anyway.

I envy you the Cortese cause if it's much better than the Syrah, it's light years beyond anything else I've heard (now that I can actually hear how good the Syrah is !)

Cheers Simon

Hi Simon,
Its me down in hurricane country. I lost your address as well. I am not familiar with HT CYBERLINKS. Could you enlighten me?
Good to hear from you again.
Doc

.
Docsavage,
.
Are you in Florida ?
.
Rgds,
Larry
.

Hey Doc,another Floridian?Congrads!! Larry,Ill bet you know some great places to get authentic Cuban food!!!Not a lot of it here in Bradenton ,,just one of the many things i miss!!!Well i will have my Tungsol 6SN7s Round Plates in a couple days,cant wait!Also have a DAC and DIP,both units really improved my digital sound,My Chardonnay just keeps sounding better as i improve the rest of my system,I cant imagine buying another preamp,unless i move up the Supratek line!!!I just added pictures to my virtual system ,please feel free to comment everyone!Thanks,Ray

Hi Ray,
Yes, I am in Fla. and I do know about good Cuban food. I am glad to hear you are so happy with your Supratek. I just ordered a new TT for my system. The old upgrade path seems to be never ending. Well sure is great fun. Let me know how the NOS tubes work out. After a few months I would like to try a few out. My Cortese should be here in a few days. I am trying to contain my excitement. It is difficult after such a long wait.
I thought about posting my system in the Virtual system section but I really could now see the benefit. I will try it out. I am not sure my skin is thick enough to take the criticism.
I guess we should try and keep this thread on topic so message me by mail any time.
Doc

Hi Ray,
Yes, I am in Fla. and I do know about good Cuban food. I am glad to hear you are so happy with your Supratek. I just ordered a new TT for my system. The old upgrade path seems to be never ending. Well sure is great fun. Let me know how the NOS tubes work out. After a few months I would like to try a few out. My Cortese should be here in a few days. I am trying to contain my excitement. It is difficult after such a long wait.
I thought about posting my system in the Virtual system section but I really could not see the benefit. I will try it out. I am not sure my skin is thick enough to take the criticism.
I guess we should try and keep this thread on topic so message me by mail any time.
Doc

OK..I cheated and have only read some of this HUMONGOUS thread..but where does my Manley Steelhead compare to the aformentioned monster preamps? Can someone enlighten me...before I take delivery??

MC