Power Uber Alles ?

The OPs question is about power and quality.
With respect to power, in my world, you need to have enough power for whatever speakers you choose, to play whatever music you enjoy, at whatever sound pressure levels meet your expectations for realistic dynamics.  Anything less and you are unlikely to be satisfied with the amount of power, in the long term.
The quality part of the question is both objective with respect to the quality of power (i.e., low distortion and minimal frequency variations), as well as subjective with respect to listening preferences.  
So, the answer is to purchase amplifier(s) with enough power to cleanly (i.e., without distortion and frequency aberrations) drive your speakers to satisfying (continuous and peak)  sound pressure levels.
Musical Fidelity previously published a SPL vs. amp power vs. speaker guide.  I could not find it on their current website but below is a link to a forum thread about "moving from a 150 watt amp to a 400 watt amp"  where @bruce_weiland posts the Musical Fidelity info from their 2009 website (see post dated 3-26-18 at 5:14pm) and immediately following @almarg provides additional useful comments on the subject.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-does-moving-from-a-150-watt-amp-to-a-400-watt-amp-get-you

@erik_squires,
Interesting thread, judging from responses so far, there doesn't appear to be any evident correlation between power and sound quality, per se. In my own example above, the only different element changed was increased power and all other factors stayed the same, but, I mean, really, how often does that ever happen in the real world? When you swap out other amp designs that are more/less powerful, or are partnering them with other speakers, then I guess everything else is changing the results of the comparison, it would seem. It's a wash then??

I wouldn't let ebm get to you too bad. Everything you said in your rebuttal to him is true (and I hope would be evident), but the ebm I know has been pretty consistent...I think of him as just our resident 'equal opportunity' hit--and-run 'slammer', lol.

Cheers.

I demand that my power amp puts out some serious wattage mojo, so instead of a tiny low powered single ended amp, I insist on on the 10wpc (12 with some tubes, but with KT77s it’s supposedly 10) provided by my Dennis Had SE amp for room shaking dynamic sound through a pair of 99db efficient speakers. I may be power crazy...

In a 12x18 room with 86db speakers a 100 watt amp that can double it's power into 4ohms would be sufficient.My former house had a 20x16 living room but was open to the dining room and kitchen and I needed 300 watts for the 89db  speakers to get any dynamics at all.
Now my room is 16x17 and lower powered tube amps give me plenty of power with more efficient speakers.The sound quality is so much better to me-realistic and palpable.If I could have afforded more powerful tube amps back then I certainly would have.The quality is more important to me but $$ make for comprise sometimes.

Aber allies speak english its america dude.

Culture is international. Get some.

OK, I was going to let this go, but I can’t. There is so much wrong here.

1. It’s not America, it’s a web site. Where do you think I am? Do you think the Internet stops at the borders?

2. If it was America I’d have the right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. I’ll speak whatever language I want to in America because it is a constitutional right to and no, you have no right at all to insist on that in person or here.

3. Read a book. While "uber alles" is not an English word it IS in most English dictionaries because it is commonly used in English writing. Living languages thrive on appropriating and introducing new words and new ideas from other cultures and languages.

4. Same goes for music. Music thrives on international connections, and dies or stagnates when it becomes inbred. You probably have no idea where music you love even comes from.

5. Wrong version of "its." You used the possessive form. You should have written "it’s" which is a contraction.

6. For 3 and 5, get a dictionary.

As an American, as a lover of culture, and as a supporter of this website your statement is profoundly wrong.

E

@oem-wheels

Interesting

I had a Classe CA2100 amp driving a pair of Paradigm Signature S2v3 monitor speakers..  Small room.. Was very good but wondered what more power of the same design would bring so I bought a Classe CA2200.. Didn't notice any difference in the mid to upper end of the frequency but the bass did improve.. Tighter and with a little more authority.. So in my case , more watts mattered.. 

Great question

I owned a pair of Emerald Physics monos (~ 275w/) with upgraded fuses for a couple of years

I got the bug and bought a Audio Alchemy stereo amp (~ 150w/) and was/am blown away. Much richer tones, deeper into the music and especially instruments. FYI, there's a pair of monos for sale right now in AG for $1700. I would grab those 

+1 roberjerman / Nice amp!

@erik_squires

have you experienced that bigger amps sound better, or is the overall quality of the amp more important.

The answer is yes.

@elizabeth made some good points I agree with,

“Everything has good points, and bad... they all have compromises.......No one size fits all, No one kind fits all. No ’easy answer’.”

My room is about 18 by 30 feet, with the system mainly projecting to an area with dimensions of about 18 by 22 feet. I have tried a bunch of amplifiers (still sort of looking) on speakers of 90 dB and currently 85 dB. What I have learned that works for me,
- Power matters, particularly if you want a dynamic presentation, in a larg’ish room, with moderately efficient speakers, and you don’t like your sound thin or tonally bleached
- The quality of the power matters too, and particularly the power supply - the ability to double power (or close) into halved impedances is one indicator
- Design implementation and quality of components matter too
- Low output impedance is helpful
- High input impedance is nice for flexibility, and critical if using a passive attenuator, but not necessary with most SS preamps
- Adding two high quality subs and removing the low bass burden from the main speakers was a good move for both amplifier performance and particularly for bass performance and flexibility
- There are significant sonic differences between even highly regarded Class AB, Class A, and Class D amplifiers that go beyond the heat issue. IME, Class AB is probably the most flexible for a wide range of music and listening preferences but each of those classes have their own sonic signature and which you like will depend on what you listen to and what sonic attributes are important to you.....sort of back to Elisabeth’s “no one size fits all”

My experience doesn't support "power uber alles" which is not to say big watts don't have a place.  I've got a Merrill Taranis, and Hegel H200 which are each spec'd at 200 or more wpc.  I enjoy listening to these driving Totem Forest or Silverline Prelude Plus speakers.  BUT the amp that is bringing the most enjoyment at the present time is a First Watt F7 (25 wpc).  Music sounds great using it to drive the Silverlines or Forests and it easily produces SPLs in the mid 80s and peaks in the upper 90s at 10-12 feet away with no sign of strain in a 19'x21' listening area (albeit, 7' ceilings).  With either speaker, the music's clarity, imaging and stage depth produced with the F7 seems superior to that produced by the other more powerful amplifiers.  

It all depends on what it is you're trying to do.

Can you get by with a 100 watts...uh, like...yeah!! But, if you want better bass sound in a normal size room, you can always expand and go for better results. 

Put it this way: I have 3 stereo amps in an active setup. The bass amp was originally in stereo at about 150 w into one 15" woofer/channel (crossed in at 150 Hz). Result?? Very good...excellent, I would've said.
Then, just to see, I tried bridging the amp and then running into the two mono 15-inchers at 4 ohms. Same amps, same woofers, same crossover settings, same EQ, same placement...just a different amount of power feeding each woofer. Now about 500 w/chanel, RMS. This was more than the 225 w each woofer was rated for at 4 ohms, but for the sake of the test, I wasn't at all worried about that.

Holy Cats! Wow! BIG difference...subjectively more reserve "force" on tap. More 3D, more transparent, not really so much noticeably more "power" per say (which was not really an issue beforehand), i.e. I couldn't really play it that much louder, but clearly the amps were no longer sweating! More relaxed. More grip on the woofers. More sinewy, more lithe. I could go on, but it was clearly better in about every way I could think of, and worse in none. Didn't take me long to realize I was not going back.

If you're looking to draw the line somewhere and choose your battles carefully, then not trying to jump in with a new trade-up search for a more powerful amp in your existing system makes some sense. Bass is the hardest and most expensive part of the spectrum to get right, but it's also the one most people express the most dissatisfaction with in their system. To seriously commit to fixing bass problems, you end up having to cross what amounts to almost a personal threshold, since better bass itself can end up covering an awful lot of territory, depending on how far you want to take it.

But, is "more power" a viable option to "normal power" for those looking for better sound? From what I've gone through, I'd say that could be a resounding yes...but you may notice that I jumped up quite a lot with the power ratings, even well beyond what my woofers could take (but then, I was able to adjust gain wherever needed in this setup).

I  find simpler amplifiers to sound better which pretty much means less power 

I bet nobody here has one of these: a Will Vincent 45 SET built on a ST70 chassis with Edcor OPT's. A mere 1.75wpc! But capable of driving my Heresy's very well! Horses for courses!

Elizabeth, so you place Class A Uber Alles? I'm not trolling you, I'm genuinely curious.

In your mind, class A trumps power? (assuming power was adequate).

Best,
E

WOW ill have to think about this very important  question ill get back to you asap.

I'll give another example.  I like certain capacitors more than others. Very personal. However there used to be this kind of belief that equivalent series resistance (ESR) or dissipation factor were the causes.

Turns out, that did not really work out. Whatever it is I like about caps, it's not in those two numbers. I think a lot of capacitor rollers and manufacturers have found the same to be true. The audible quality is not in those two figures.

I like what I like, and I don't have a reason for it. :) I fully respect that, but maybe someday this will change.

Hey @islandmandan :

Thanks for your kind words, but I am honestly not testing anyone!

Often what happens is that another thread will tickle my thoughts on a subject, and I get genuinely curious about my fellow A'goner's personal experiences.

Like take this one. I have a preference, and even though I could the math here and there, that doesn't mean it correlates with user experience.
More than anything, I like to come to A'gon to figure out how my fellow audiophiles experience music, and the gear that plays it, and in the realm of personal experience, this is irrefutable, even when it goes against my own prejudices, and that's where I am forced to learn new things.

I hope I also offer a modest service by asking questions in ways that can be answered productively, even when we disagree. I try to come to a shared understanding of personal tastes vs. technical attribution. Like say, distortion. We can measure it, but the question of what we'll buy or like listening to is not a number, and to me this distance, between TIM or THD and value and personal pleasure is super interesting to me.

Best,
E

Eric, by now you've no doubt heard me mention my setup in a large room (16' X 34" w/cathedral ceilings), and for most of my everyday use, Class D Audio CDA 254 using two modules, upgraded power supply for 500 Wpc bridged.

For vinyl listening, an SET 300B drives my custom-built Tannoy HPD 315's to very satisfying listening levels in my larger-than-average room.

For your 12' X 18' with 86db speakers I'd say at least 100 Wpc or more.

Eric, just out of curiosity, I've considered you to be one of the more knowledgeable members of the forum, but lately you've been asking questions that I would think you already know the answers to. Are you just testing us, to see who knows what?

Hope all is well, regards,
Dan  

" If a listener was happy with a particular 100 Watt amplifier, would you suggest they find more power?" No, if they wanted a change in amplifier(s), I would suggest changing to higher quality amplifiers. My experience points toward class A or if their speakers can handle it, single ended. 
The majority of my audiophile life was spent with Lowthers so high power amplifiers would have been a liability. Since them I've moved to Tekton & can use either low or high power amps with them. I've tried both & still come back to single ended (SS) for the best sound.