Additionally if you have adequate power supply why would plugging an amp into a PS 20 result in a better sounding amplifier? If Power supply is all over the place yeah this makes sense. So unless you have a power supply that's unpredictable which is quite rare in most of the USA than a power regenerator is a complete waste of money. |
Anybody use a Power conditioner from transparent like an opus? I don’t really have powerflo problems so maybe a regenerator it’s not a good idea. May be a conditioner is better. Most don’t really have problems with their electricity flow unless they live in a heavily shared Circuit situation. So need for a regenerator seems kind of unnecessary. An unimpeded conditioner would seem to be better. PS audios Power regenerators use about $100 a year in electricity costs and are still on when you don’t use them. This seems really really absurd. So if I own one of these things over 10 years that’s about $1000 worth of energy costs which is grossly wasteful. |
@atmasphere , Do you think P20 will improve the sound of your bigger amps like MA2 or 3 on P20 regenerator? I ask because you specified that P20 works well with your "smaller" amps. |
It depends on the amps and the model of regenerator. If one of our smaller amps and one of the bigger regenerators, yes- certainly worth a try. The regenerator should be one of the newer ones made in the last few years- the older ones don't seem to like the constant heavy load that our OTLs put on the line. |
@atmasphere so would you recommend plugging your amps, which i own, into a ps audio regen?
|
@jumia This is correct only if its for a second or two. If longer, a few minutes or hours then no. If the voltage is sagging it means there is more draw on the AC power- and voltage drops are occurring in substation power transformers and the transformer on the telephone pole outside your house. When this happens its guaranteed that the AC waveform will also be more distorted. Its this distortion that a good power conditioner is intended to correct. Fluke Instruments is a well known test equipment manufacturer in the electronics industry. Here’s a short primer from them regarding this topic: https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/power-quality/harmonics-electrical-systems You can see that addition filter caps in an amplifier will have no bearing on this issue whatsoever. |
A lot depends on the amplifier! In this case it was a tube amplifier. Tube amps have a filament circuit and when the voltage on the filaments decreases the transconductance of the power tubes falls off- combine that with reduced plate voltage and you can see substantial losses of power. But you will see a power loss with any amplifier! |
I've seen a 3 volt change like that rob an amp of 40 watts of power. But a conditioner does more than that- a good one will provide a clean AC waveform, thus allowing the power supplies in audio equipment to operated as designed. |
I have the entry-level PS Audio P3 feeding my Class-D Rogue amp and my sources. I think it lowers noise floor and improves articulation. I listen to mostly acoustic and classical, so I find it worthwhile. Maybe not the most “bang for the buck” $1500 I ever spent, but I never considered returning it. |
@chungjh I think you'll find that the P20 does a better job. The Tourus lacks active circuitry and if you look at their website you'll see that they don't have a spec for distortion on the output waveform. FWIW, if you want to know if a given power conditioner will do you any good, just look at the distortion spec of the conditioned power. If you don't see one, that tells you that if there is distortion on the incoming power it will be there on the output as well. A proper power conditioner will always have a distortion spec. PSAudio specifies 0.5% for their P20. |
@atmasphere I have Torus RM20 power conditioner, but I am not sure if P20 will lead to actual SQ improvement. I still hear a significant improvement in SQ late in the evening (with RM20). I am looking for conditioner/regenerator that will improve the day time sound to equal that of the night. I thought P20 was the answer until I read some mixed reviews on P20 on whether it is actually better than a good conditioner like Torus. |
@chungjh We have a P20 and customers running the P15. The P20 easily supports our smaller amps and the rest of the system. We've also worked with the Elgar power conditioners and have customers running those. Some of them are so large you can literally run the entire audio room circuit off of one conditioner. Most conditioners IMO are glorified power strips. For them we generally recommend running our amps plugged directly into the wall. |
A long time ago I formed the opinion that a good power source has low impedance. Such a power source should have low load regulation which should be desirable where the load is an audio amplifier. The PS15 claims a very low impedance for its amplifier supplying power to connected devices. In my system, the PS15 seemed to improve soundstage and dynamics. My suggestion is to pay attention to the manufacturer's claimed output impedance when shopping for regenerators or conditioners. I.E., look for a low number. |
@atmasphere , do you use P20 for your system? If so, do you plug in your preamp and amp into the same P20? Some people use separate power conditioners for the amp vs the rest.
thanks, Jay |
Hi Jay as in Jay’s Audio has has a number of videos on Utube on his experience with Power Conditioners and Power Regeneration. You may want to check them out. From what I have seen, Jay is ono of few reviewers out there without any sort of real or perceived conflict of interest. Plus his systems sound amazing….even through my crappy IPad speakers. cheers Jerry
|
My prior statement was correct. The PSAudio is a type of power conditioner. Its called a 'regenerator' since it uses a sine wave oscillator driving an amplifier which in turn drives a power transformer whose output is that of the unit. Literally it builds the AC output from scratch. So it can run off dirty power and produce clean power of the correct voltage. It sounds to me as if you've mis-characterized their claims, at least insofar as their website is concerned: https://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-power-plant-15/ I don't see anything there that says its an additional power source as you say and nothing misleading- I am certain they can demonstrate their claims. Its intention is to provide clean power, which can be in short supply anywhere in the country. IOW this isn't just about AC line voltage stability. That big gray cylinder on the power poles, possibly in your back alley is a power transformer, and if loaded past 50% of its rated capacity will make enough 5th harmonic that it can easily mess with audio equipment (and other equipment- motors and the like) in your house. The power company has no concerns if the load goes past 50% as long as it does not exceed 100%. But many audiophiles have noticed their equipment seems to sound better at night- this often corresponds to lower load on those transformers and so the power can be cleaner. Something like the PSAudio allows you to have that better sound all the time. A power cord can have a beneficial effect (Ohm's Law is why- they can develop voltage drops across them) but they in no way can filter harmonics of the AC line! |
Atmasphere, I am referring to the regenerator from PS audio not a power conditioner. Your reference to me being false is not accurate. If you have a stable voltage from your outlet you don’t need a source of addl power offered by the PS audio 15. The PS audio 15 product offers unclear value to the consumer. The marketing materials are misleading. You don’t need an additional power source to supplement existing amplifier when power source is stable as most people have these days. PS 15 is very misleading when it says the PS 15 offers additional power when demands from the music require more power. This is a one of their primary selling points and it’s wrong. Further they don’t discuss the benefit offered when you attach a high end power cable which is what they recommend. Upgraded power cable offers tremendous value and negates much of the need for regenerating AC current. Cheap courtesy cable they furnish clearly needs to be upgraded and when this happens your system will improve even without a PS 15. |
This statement is false. A power conditioner is not an additional source of power reserve nor is that what they are for. Spikes are a minor thing that are easily dealt with- you con't need a conditioner for that. Things like sagging voltage and the 5th harmonic are not! You need active circuitry to perform this task properly. Elgar made a power conditioner decades ago that was capable of this (and also regulated line voltage without limiting current) but it was marketed to industrial and commercial applications, not high end audio. The PSAudio conditioner is capable of eliminating a 5th harmonic and to my knowledge is the only high end audio conditioner with this ability. So you have two choices if you want to do conditioning properly: find an old Elgar and have it refurbished (FWIW if something like that were made today by a high end audio company it would easily be the same pricing as the PSAudio stuff) or get a PSAudio. |
Atmaspere, Thanks for all your great comments Relating to power storage within an amp if you’re voltage coming out of the outlet remain stable, even on very hot days, then I think the only concern is spikes in Power needs to handle Sonic changes therefore it would seem the capacitors within a well designed lamp can more than handle Power needs. Therefore it would seem the needed power storage reserves of a power regenerator are unnecessary given a stable voltage supply. I have trouble typing so I dictate and some of the letters may be a little bit off above
|
@jumia The power regenerator is a form of power conditioning. In this case its the best one offered to high end audio. your last paragraph above has nothing to do with what the power regenerator does or offers. Dirty power can affect the sound of a lot of components. It can affect the noise floor and can mess with distortion. Cleaning up the AC power allows the power supplies in your equipment to work more efficiently and so produce less noise. This statement:
Is false. If the amp has a regulated power supply it might be able to deal with voltage swings (which can last far longer than the storage in an amplifier's power supply could ever deal with). Amps maintain storage to have an energy store from which to draw power for sure, but if the voltage has sagged on a hot day when everyone is running air conditioning the amp will suffer.
The reason is more than just high frequency hash! The 5th harmonic on the AC Line is one of the more pesky issues you can run into from a power supply point of view and a hash filter will do nothing to stop it. The PS Audio regenerators can block the 5th harmonic entirely - and are are one of the very few high end conditioners that can do so. The 5th harmonic (300Hz in the US) can cause power transformers to rattle and run warm; power rectifiers to become noisy and AC motors to possibly run backwards.
|
PP's are something to put on the list after you're convinced you did all the baseline essentials to dialing in SQ. Dedicated line/decent receptacle before considering all the other madness. Your alternative choice is "power conditioning" or whatever you want to call it, is another polarizing subject. Audioquest Niagra and the like has their devotees. |
Well this is all profoundly sad. Unfortunately there appears to be no good rationale for spending $7500 for a P 15. Was really hoping it might help my home theater sound since the processors being made these days are of poor quality sonically. Additionally to improve the flow of electricity via a regenerator to a quality amplifier in periods where there is a huge swing in electricity needs is ridiculous. Amps maintain Storage reserves just for this purpose. I believe a conditioner has merit for use with a TV set where circuitry may benefit by hopefully softening a harsh electrical signal.
|
"Also since the P 15 is being used to re-create an electrical signal why would there be a need to attach it to the wall with a very expensive power cable?" Definitely any "audio mystery" as to why we PP users get the fancy cable to power it. I have all Nordost from the wall. The MSRP for the PC is nearly half the retail of my PPP! Reality at least to my ears- aftermarket PC into the PP doesn't "improve" sonics.If it does, it is so subtle if anything. Even the PS Audio videos don't have a concrete answer as to why you should consider one- you just do it. Part of the audiophool protocol. |
Wouldn’t installing a simple Greenwave filter solve a lot of the issues?? Was thinking about buying a Greenwave EMI meter which might be interesting. If I can achieve a very very low reading than why bother getting a PS 15.
Also since the P 15 is being used to re-create an electrical signal why would there be a need to attach it to the wall with a very expensive power cable?
|
A PS Audio regenerator is definitely something you simply must try in your own setup to determine if it's something for you. Hearing results will depend on your homes power quality and how your setup responds to without and with one. Some find it to be a waste of money, others like myself, actually "hear" overall improvement. No one here or the audio forums can give you solid advice on what's "best". |
I have an "all digital source" audio system and each time I've upgraded the power conditioner (Furman->PS Audio P10->PS Audio P15) I've found the performance of my DACs improves (tighter bass, improved stereo image and soundstage, better resolution) for both listening to disks and streaming from a Roon server. |
“So at the end of it all what is the point of this PS audio regenerator?”
If like me where night/day AC voltage irregularity/variance coming in is significant enough (>5%?), it matters a lot (soundwise), more their stabilizing capability I suppose (adjustable to your system’s preferred setting) eg. My equipments are 230v, but found them best sounding at rock steady 228v. Hence ‘conditioners only’ don’t work for some. Other candidates I’d like to try are Stromtank, Torus etc. |
From what I heard the external power filters and re-generators are usually better than what is inside amps. The internal ones are normally filters rather than re-generators. The big question in my mind is if the improvement is worth the cost and you might have to answer that one yourself. See if you can try some products at home. |
you know I gotta believe all the wonderful power supplies that already exist inside a higher level component no doubt do a lot of what the PS audio regenerator does. So at the end of it all what is the point of this PS audio regenerator? Are all these separate power supplies now pretty much irrelevant. And these power regenerators apparently have amplifiers that act as amplifiers to amplifiers. Don’t existing amplifiers already have the capacity to deal with changes in audio dynamics, which I thought is a very important aspect of amplifier design. |
As @jl1ny said do not plug in a power hungry amp into the regen. My Coda #16 is 150/watts with the first 100 in class A. My P15 strangled the dynamics and when I plugged directly into the wall it cam3 alive |
