I think that Metro04 does have a good point, the whole debate over power cord benefits, its length, gauge, & additional connections must be limited by the house wiring behind the walls. The old addage your system is only as good as its weakest link should apply.
In regards to house wiring, Romex 14/2 is used for lighting and 12/2 for other applications. So if 12 gauge is the limiting factor, to buy a power cord with a heavier gauge than 12 seems self defeating unless you have a dedicated line from your main service box to your stereo to support heavier gauged power cords. What I do know is that a quality power cord does make a clear audible difference, especially in digital amplification but again probably not always based on its gauge when you take into account the factors that may or may not exist within your walls. |
Gregadd, Its not hard for me to tell others how to spend their hard earned money. If you follow my posts/threads you will note that I am consistent in giving advise to others regarding spending their hard earned money (as I did your's). "Try it and if you can't hear a difference don't buy it." I'm obviously not a power cord salesman.
For the most part my only reason for posting is to help others in need of information and in avoiding the tar pits of audio. I obviously failed to do either in this thread. :-( |
Newbee - My point is we are hobbyists not scientists. Scientific proof is arrived at by a very rigorous protocol. The notion that someone can or cannot pick something out is the beginning of scientific inquiry not the end. How do we know whether they could pick it out because there is no difference or becuase they are incapable of hearing the difference? Normally you would have a control group where there was a known diffrence to see if the testee was cabale of hearing the difference.
I am a cable skeptic. I beliveve that quality cable is better than zipcord.
Beyond that not only I am skeptical of the benefits of expensive cable,I DOUBT WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE ANY DIFFERENCE. That is to say cables "should do no harm" and nothing else.
If you examine my system post you will see that my cls was purchased used and the PC was a replacement. Whether pc's have a sonic value is an open question for me.
Deciding what sound's good to me is easy. Giving advice to others on how to spend thier hard earn money is a much more difficult question. |
I think that if P.T. Barnum was alive today he would be in the audio aftermarket business. I know every time I spend money on aftermarket, my brain and wallet tell my ears that it sounds improved. It better sound better or I got taken. If it sounds better too me, than I enjoy it. |
Gregadd,
From the tenor of your post it appears that some of our 'objectivist' comments may have offended your 'subjectivist' sensitivities. Frankly I'm surprised that a person with your experience would have expected otherwise in this forum.
But upon re-reading, your original post clearly indicated your subjective belief in the differences brought by power cords. You did not ask about the differences between cords. Clearly it was boorish of me, just because I don't believe in the benefits of 'high end' power cords to respond. I should have simply ignored your post.
Lesson learned. I won't do that again. |
Well having started this I guess I should weigh in.
I have no problem with double blind tests. I have yet to see a true scientific double blind protocol. Yes we subjectivist have degrees in the natural sciences too.
It's my money and I really don't have to prove to anybody that I can hear a difference. If you can't hear don't buy it!
DH Labs Power Plus 2 meter.
I would not mind using a power storage device like richard grey. |
Newbee,
Read "Pabelson's" thread on the "Do you respect others views?". He's not alone with his posted point of view, but always nice to hear from someone objective.
Oh, and refreshing to hear someone convey honesty about themselves, like yourself. You and others just enjoy the hobby, if that's what it is classified as. I wonder if fishermen bicker so much about their gear?
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One possible thing to do is if you like your power cords and don't want to chg just for the sake of getting longer etc...then investigate power conditioners which I think you don't in your system...many will argue they improve sound quality (I do) and u can use them btwn the outlet and our gear so that a defacto extension occurs. Of course, you will have to experiment with various power conditioners first and trust your own ears. |
Metro04, in case you haven't figured it out I happen to agree with you. I've tried out different cables to contrast to the heavy guage Belden which I typically use and on those few occasions when I thought I heard a difference I did not hear a corresponding change when I removed the cable under test and went back to the old Belden. But then again, my equipment is not revealing enuf, my hearing is poor, and my attention span is nil. What would you expect. :-) |
Newbee,
A power cord can be any length providing the conductors and plugs are rated for the current requirements. All "unshielded" wiring is susceptible to RFI and EMI influences. Shielded PC's ONLY minimize EMI (AC hum) into close proximity high signal gain interconnect cables, which most decent IC's should eliminate themselves (ie; 100% shielded vs braided only). Keep in mind that all "exposed" Romex house wiring, from each wall outlet, is "unshielded" back to the breaker box. Now, if your house wiring is ran through grounded metal cunduit, then that's different, right? So, what sonic attributes can a short shielded "grounded" PC cable offer to footage of non-shielded cable runs? That's where all the debatable controversy begins.
I'm from the camp that's doesn't believe "Audiophile" PC's can offer any improvements over "stock" cords, EXCEPT for fully shielded scenerios as mentioned above. Exotic conductors, dielectrics, and layout construction offer nothing over the remaining non-audiophile Romex wiring, standard outlet composition, breakers, etc. If you won't believe me, than obtain the proper test equipment and have it verified. Look at each and every "Audiophile" concern at the outlet, then the output of the boutique cord(s). As long as the equipment is getting it's proper "clean" voltage supply, that's it!
Look, get a range of cables on loan (speaker, PC, IC's, etc). "Stock" and otherwise. Since you should know your system's sound at this point, have a friend perform blind testing on you. Let them deliberately fool you by periods of never exchanging "stock" cabling. If you can't pick the high dollar cable(s) every time, there's your answer. This goes for even the most hideously expensive systems. Ignore $$$ ego, and prove it to yourselves... |
Metro04, FWIW I'm severely challenged when it comes to figuring out how long a PC should be. If one assumes that adding a particular PC improves the sound, say a six ft length, would a nine foot length sound better, or worse. Why? How about a 12 ft length. Would that be better or worse? Why? Assuming the PC is the same guage as the romex in the walls and the current is not limited by the PC wouldn't it be acting as some sort of filter for RFI etc and benefit by being as long as possible. I wonder how one determines the optimum length in the first place. Oh well, lots of questions - I'm sure there are a lot of answers. I'm just a Newbee. :-) |
Newbee,
I completely agree. Why can't people understand that that is basically what's behind their sheetrock walls? Within the same room, if he had chosen the furthest outlet location along the outlet wiring series, he'd just be adding more Romex wiring length. Its basically just a longer non-audiophile extension cord, thus the on-going beneficial "Audiophile" powercord debate. Nice fancy $$$ cord plugged into the wall outlet, then crappy ol' Romex hidden just mere inches away. Just because it's out of sight, doesn't make it magical?
Some may argue that another plug contact is made, but aren't factoring in the "series" outlet connections behind the walls and out to the breaker box (more copper and brass oxidation at each and every wire termination for those debating "gold-plated fuse" benefits).
40 years of electronics, but what do I know? |
I am with Listener57 - get a nice strip with a solid cord on it - BPT makes some very high quality gear that will probably improve your rig anyway - very tough to beat the value of the Pure Power Center for $149 which includes a 6' cord - not his best but decent, best is available =) For an extra $20 Chris will add some magic and isolate the duplexes enabling you to isolate the digital sources from the power amps etc. |
I'd say sell it and buy a longer cord. What Brand/Model is it, maybe someone reading this thread can use it? |
I doubt that anyone could tell a difference, if you can, it is just as likely to be an improvement as an impairment. |
http://www.powersystemsdirect.com/Panamax/Oxygen_Free_High_Performance_Extension_Cord_P12X10NEMA5-15_335.php
Panamax has a good extension cord. |
Well, you could plug the CLS's cords into a P300. Then run a longer cord to the conditioner. (thats what I do) |
Beemer,
Will the Ronco Cable Stretcher negate the benefits of cryo treating the power chord? |
In the past, I have posted that the very top of the line Mapleshade Records power strip does not degrade sound, but actually seems to very impressively enhance power transfer as judged by the audible improvement.
There are even other extension cord-power strips favorably mentioned in past postings by Audiogon members, one of which you might choose, instead.
Still, it might be simpler to replace with a longer length of what you feel has already proven to be synergistic with your system. Then, your redundant power cord can be put up for sale. |
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Hi, yes there is no question you will lose some benefits of adding an extension to the power cord. I have found it is far better to invest in a longer length to make it redundant for future applications. |
This should do the trick. |
You'll have to pick up the new and improved AudioPhiLe Cable Stretcher from Ronco Industries! A modern scaled-down version of the Midievel torture rack, scaled down to a size appropriate for AudioPhiLes.
Best,
Paul ;-) |
Well now you can't go back ! You won't be happy until you've purchased a new Longer cord. So I guess you have to get the "Fish hooks out of your pocket " Hey its only money! |
Personally I can't see much difference between plugging the PC into an ordinary outlet and plugging it into a heavy guage extension cord. I'd sure try that before I spent my hard earned money on a longer audiophile PC. |
Buy a longer cord and refrain from adding an extension cord. What kind of PC is it? |
