power conditioning question gentlemen
Not sure if this is the one you are looking for, but just under $1,400: http://www.daleproaudio.com/p-2283-furman-p-2400-ar-voltage-regulatorpower-conditioner-w-smp-protection.aspx |
Its not free lol .. Of course its all relative . In audio sometimes it becomes a little too much for me thats why i got away from it .. Too much keeping up with the jones spend spend spend it becomes diminished return . At some point you have to breath and release whether you have 5k or 500k involved |
Well, like is relative. It's relative to how much $$ I'd have to spend. :) :) :) I do like big iron/transformers, and power regenerators. If I could have it all, I'd go that route but in your case the two things I would NOT give up are surge protection and voltage regulation. After that it's just how much extra $$$ do you want to spend. :) Best, Erik |
The Reference Series units in this video offer balanced power. Note the difference in the size of the transformer as compared to the Elite series units, that's due to balanced power. The P-2400 weighs 90lbs. The consumer level IT Reference 20i offers balanced power and is twice the price of the P-2400-IT which is studio grade. I can't answer why but it seems to me that makes the P-2400 a great buy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zONGh3UMhXs and here is more information from Garth Powell from Furman.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAAEhtAUT34 |
What I try to do on these pages, because I'm a nice guy, is to relate MY experiences in this search for perfection....In fact, there is no such thing. I must have spent a couple of hundred thousand dollars on the greatest next component only to be ultimately dissatisfied. My point in the post above is to caution us to get the stuff we're absolutely sure about. My stuff is a few years old now, but still brings what I want to the party. Buying and selling is for the dealers to play with.....but an excellent way for us to lighten our wallet in disappointment. When I recommend listening to your own system without power conditioning, its what I have done and found it to be instructive, and a wise effort FOR ME....and maybe for some others. |
@oleschool Given a choice between voltage regulation, and balanced power, I'd go with regulation in your situation, that is, going off grid for long periods of time. The regulation in the P2400 AR will keep your gear in optimal voltage ranges no matter what may come. If you also have cable TV, I'd use a ground loop eliminator on it as well ($30 or less) unless it's built into the P2400. http://amzn.to/2bEsOZS Best, Erik |
Oleschool, I was referring to the Furman, Equi=Tech, BPT type units. Think about the Equi=Core, you need one unit for each component. How does the cost then compare to a shelf mounted unit that offers several duplex outlets in one unit? I have no opinion about the Core product and don't mean to appear to discount them it's just that from a practicality standpoint I can't see an advantage. I was all set to purchase the P-2400 IT when I ran across my BPT unit for sale here on the 'gon. I gave up the surge protection offered by the Furman but it allowed me to try balanced power for about 1/3 the cost. I may still eventually sell the BPT and go with the Furman but for now I'm certainly enjoying the BPT. My system is completely silent under the music. |
Hi @oleschool Sorry for not answering, I was having trouble following the models. I don’t know anything about Core so I can’t comment. In general, power regenerators are the most expensive per watt. I really like and trust PurePower and PS Audio units. The Furman conditioner with SMP, LiFT and voltage regulation is a great in-between unit. I use the Elite 15i PF and I'm very happy with it's performance. It has SMP and LiFT which is no joke. In addition to the measurements, I went without this unit for a while and really missed it. My experience with Richard Gray was from a show in NY. They sold a bunch of units at the show to other vendors there because the power in the hotel was so crappy and they had the only AC conditioners which showed any improvement at all. This was ages ago when I was shilling for InnerSound. Televisions were a big deal and the units visibly improved the displays. But given your needs, I'd go Furman or step up to PS Audio/PurePower. Actually no, whe I'd do is stick with Furman and save the money for room acoustic treatment. :) Best, Erik |
Oleschool, When considering a piece of equipment, if you're going for balanced power, then consider the weight of the product. It's all about the transformer. That's all I'll say on this subject because as someone mentioned, there is a lot to learn. I would appreciate some feedback on your product decision and the results you achieve. Please let us know and perhaps we can all learn a little. |
Oleschool, try contacting Alan at www.alanmaherdesigns.net he's got some experience at getting good sound from solar power. |
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I meant nothing disrespectful, I only tried to guess what you really might want, that's all. And I in fact stopped posting here because it appears that there is nothing more that I could add. In the beginning I did say that wrestling with electricity could be complicated, few of us get it right quickly, just like cables it often takes time and effort and often is not inexpensive. |
String and inna , I’m getting a little flustered over the comments about my system .. I dont really care to much if you think my system is up to your standards really . Also i started this thread for advice not critisism .. Funny how im using vpi acoustic zen mf nuvista benz bel canto cambridge audio and great cables and my system isn’t up to par . I laugh at that . Because i dont have 100k in it ? .. hilarious .. My question was about power and off grid setups . Shame on me ..i feel so inferior.. If you only knew me lmao .. Thanks for all your help :) |
When you say dedicated line to the room, is this for the system only with no other outlets? Do you know if it is 12 gauge or 10 gauge? If it is 12 gauge, you could run a 10 gauge dedicated line for the amp only, and use the current one for everything else. This would definitely solve the "available flow" issue. I only recommend this because of hearing a definite difference in a friend's system when he upgraded from 12 to 10. As far as the other issue, do you experience anything affecting the sound or a light flicker, etc? |
For an in depth technical discussion of series protectin, please see the links on this site. http://www.brickwall.com/pages/the-worlds-best-surge-protectors Of course, you can claim anything on the web, but having looked at the Furman units that use this, and examining the claims here, it all adds up. There's no snake oil. Its sound science and deep knowledge of AC circuits in detail. Best, Erik |
Hi @rippet, Sorry I may have misread. If you were saying these units worked on the circuit, regardless of whether or not the items being "protected" were in series, then it must be a parallel surge protector. If I misread that I apologize. Otherwise, my original statements stand. Claims of a NASA or KGB background don't change the physics of a circuit. Richard Gray, who makes the best parallel system I know of, still can't do surge protection. A surge would have come and gone before it responded. It is however very effective at smoothing out AC irregularities, such as by dimmer switches and motors, neighbors coming home, etc. Best, Erik |
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Erik, If your response is regarding my plug in surge protectors.. It made me call the engineer who built them for me. He said he built individual low pass filters. I don't know. He's has about 4 different engineering degrees. nuclear, electrical, mechanical and audio. Hes 72 years old and still active in all of them. He does contract work for NASA and Audio Resaearch among others. You gotta believe someone don,t you? Peeter |
Parallel surge protectors are not all that, and I've seen them fail en mass. Not pretty. First, they age and you have no idea how much. Second, they are slow. Third, their effectiveness can be compromised by the impedance of the electrical wiring. Lastly they may not even work. Yeah, ok, maybe they sound better ( I doubt it) but for absolute protection it's series or nothing. In addition to that, parallel units are slow. They take time to react. Series do not. They are designed as low pass filters, which means that a fast signal like a lightning strike can't pass through before it clamps. A parallel unit, most cheap, will let the spike pass before it clamps. Repeatedly. Best, Erik |
I ditched power conditioners after I installed Furutech GTX-D duplex. But I only need 2 ac outlets. I now go directly into the wall duplex. Substantially cleaned/opened up the all facets of sound reproduction in a costly system... If you need more get another. That leaves power surge protection. Had an audio/electrical engineer build me a coulpe of small wall plug in surge protectors that can be plugged into any outlet on the same circuit as your equipment without interfering with that equipment. Any outlet. even rooms away if on same circuit. Just had a humongous electrical storm in central NY. You may have read about it. House grid never suffered. So I think they work. Charged me $40 apiece. That's all. Might be something you can get commercially. |
Oleschool, If you have a dedicated line to your audio system then you may not get "noise" on the line given your setup. If however you have other appliances etc. on the same line, then even though you generate your own power there will be noise on the line. A balanced power device.... (and I will cite the Equi=tech web site here) "When 120-volt AC power is balanced, one side of the circuit has +60 Volts to ground while the other has -60 Volts to ground. (Across the circuit, the usual 120 Volts is still present". "Standard unbalanced AC power systems have a "hot" conductor and a "neutral" conductor. In the US, the "hot" conductor nominally has 120 Volts to ground and the "neutral" conductor has 0 Volts to ground". "In a balanced power system, the voltages on the system's two output terminals are 180 degrees out of phase to each other with respect to ground. The system reference (ground) originates at the output center tap of an AC isolation transformer. In other words, the system's grounding reference (zero position) is located at the system's mean voltage differential or zero crossing point of the AC sinewave. This is a far more effective way to establish a reference potential for an AC system. The center tap is then grounded to Earth for electrical safety and for referencing shields". "There is never any voltage or current present on the ground reference in a balanced power system. Transient voltages and reactive currents which normally would appear on the neutral and ground wires are also out of phase and likewise, sum to zero at the ground reference thereby canceling out AC hum and noise". "A balanced AC Power system works the same way as a balanced audio circuit but with a higher amplitude. Both balanced audio and balanced AC incorporate phase cancellation or common mode rejection to eliminate noise". So as you can see, with balanced power you will always have noise free, clean electrical power to your system. You need only have a transformer large enough in the unit to drive your amplifier. Most improvements will be seen in front end equipment by the way. The Furman P2400-IT sells for $2400.00 and gives you both balanced power as well as surge protection. The term "power conditioning" gets a little weird due to many interpretations. Here is the link to the Furman.http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=P-2400IT Full disclosure here; I have no connection to any company related to this topic. I am merely sharing research I have conducted. For more good information check out the Equi=Tech website an yes, that is an equal sign. |
Thanks guys, especially eric you always seem to have a valid suggestion.I know my system may not be in the 6 digits but it is dam nice and my modded nuvista punches way above its 5k retail back in the day.if anything it certainly has power at 275 a side and 40 peak amps.I love my adagios there reviews speak for themselves. I can say i will order a cple smp and run them in my ht room immediatley .I always unplug every audio ac plug when not in use .I have never had a surge on this setup in 6 yrs.If anything like i said its a milliseconds fall off when the genny shuts off .The genny again only charges the batteries it does not provide power to my house.As i said it does have some legs off it to run additional things around my ranch only when runningif i need the big juice. . These work only when the genny is running and are not ! in my house,spring house or my 500sq ft tree house 30' in a giant redwood( guest house with a zipline to my pond ) .I can run a large 220v compressor on my batts but when it starts my lights show it for a millisecond. This is a real deal setup over 80 k. Lak ,i believe you are correct,i do not need to condition my power imo.I just was thinking what beneifit if any i would achieve if i had a toroidial type set up directly next to my amp to provide instant juice if nessasary and to delete that slight flutter when it switches.The genny is on an autostart,when the voltage drops to roughly 70% battery it starts auto and takes it to 100% i can have normal type things running like fridge, 55tv, pond pumps, fans, microwave, etc etc for hrs and hrs .In the summer, like know i could have probly 7 k rollin all day for zzippp! My genny may run for a cple hrs here and there once a night always,rarely before dark,even when im in my studio playing music. There isn,t even a pole for power within 7miles of my ranch.I'm 12 miles from a 4light town, 40miles from a wallmart and 120 from a real airport. There are alot of musicians that hide out up here and nobody even knows. :-) many retired late 60-70s frisco musicians .I will not say who :-) But alot where at woodstock lol Thanks again for the input,has anyone tried one of these Core setups from mark? or the powerblock thing gray had 400 ,1200 etc.I know they may be useless if your not in my situation or so people say ,again i think i may like it.. |
Back in the 1990's there were several forums written on Audiogon regarding solar powered audio systems also battery operated systems that were completely off grid with battery storage for the entire system. I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not educated when it comes to this concept, however perhapes someone could explain to me if you are using solar power and batteries, why would you need power conditioning; other then when using the back up power generator? |
To be complete, series surge supression is a licensed technology which SurgeX also licenses, and there may be others. SurgeX charges about twice what Furman does in the pro/commercial space though, so I haven't mentioned it. SMP just happens to be Furman's name for the tech they are licensing. Best, Erik |
Depending on what you need, you can get some features much cheaper. For instance, I think the SMP enabled surge protectors start under $200. http://amzn.to/2b11jgr As a surge, noise and over voltage protector, it’s as good as any other unit you can buy. It’s not pretty and doesn’t have a ton of outlets. One step up is the rack mountable with voltage monitor: http://amzn.to/2b3GwUG SMP is the only surge protection tech. that filters noise in the audible range, down around 3 kHz I believe. Most strips start around 100kHz and go up. It’s not snake oil either, I’ve taken them apart. :) SMP is the only thing I trust my expensive equipment with, replacement warranties be damned. It also protects you from low-level over-voltage conditions that a typical surge strip might never fire on. None of these include voltage regulation (keeping it between 115 and 125), power factor correcting or remote turn on or multi-bank filtering (separate filters per outlet) though. That’s what you pay the big bucks as you go further up the scale, as it needs more weight to work in the form of transformers or transistors and heat sinks. I guess my point is, the really cheap units are a lot more effective than people realize and may be all you ever want. Best, Erik |
inna thanks, but i,m quite happy with what i have now . I have had alot of seperates to many to list and intergrateds 32yrs in high end .I like where i'm sitting at this point for where my life is at this time.I do not believe that is my issue at all .I believe most of it is in my head ,but i do believe i need a way to keep constant voltage to my gear regardless of the minor power glitches i have,It just makes me nervous.I,m just a guy who like a pretty decent setup ( for here ) and also have a seperate 7:2 Ht room. for the family . I am as you know a musician first so my heart lies with my paul reed smiths,marshall tubes and my vintage les pauls. I am also very into metal work and build custom hotrods and motorcycles among having a new born..lol I am spread thin so i will stick with this hand for now.Although i do miss my pv12 among others that i lost in my fire. but not my lp12 i love my classic ;) "One mans floor is anothers ceiling"....lol |
Oleschool, this is wild hypothesis of mine. What if in fact you want better amps and better subs, something that would give you all the reserves and peaks of power and then some? 'Unlimited' power taking any shape and form you want it to. No power conditioner in the world can be a substitute for a great amp. And great woofers, subwoofers. |
ok guys ,the last cple hrs have been spent researching this subject and i,m back to ground zero.It’s like frikin interconnects so many opinions, i am a believer in interconnects proper interconnects for the setup .So what is confusing is the difference in the units over the obvious.Say shunyatas conditioner but has reserve peak power,core just peak power,richard gray has alot of reserve power but is also a conditioner.so my question is "conditioning power" if my power is clean why change it? this seems to be the big arguement,what is actually taking place to change my sound that a reserve of power like a cores torroidial isnt doing .And here i thought i was a pretty smart guy duhh |
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Oleschool- Your power setup is unique. If that were my situation, a used PSA Power Plant can be found in your budget. I found a PPP for $700 and no complaints. If it dies, it can still be refreshed at a reasonable cost. Power conditioning, can be a contentious subject like cable religion. My experience with a used PP, is positive. If you dont care for the perceived improvements, sell it. Can't imagine NOT listening to my all tubed setup thru regen power.I hear no sonic degradation with my entire system plugged in. Even the plasma is stunning on movie nights. |
