Hi Jafant. I have indeed. The Powerisolator Reference. What has been your experience with Transparent PCs? Thanks.
Power conditioner help
Hi All,
Posting this here since there is no section devoted to power products. I also posted it in the miscellaneous section.
If you had a choice between PS Audio P10 power plant and a Transparent Powerisolator Reference, which would you choose and why? Both available at reasonable prices, though P10 is still quite a bit more. I have a pretty high end system with a Musical Fidelity NuVista 800 integrated amp, NuVista CD (the new one), Scoutmaster turntable, SDS/ADS, Herron VTPH2, Wilson Sashas, and all Transparent Ref MM2 cables. System sounds great, but my present Powerbank 8 is quite old now, so I want to upgrade it.
Thanks for your opinions.
Posting this here since there is no section devoted to power products. I also posted it in the miscellaneous section.
If you had a choice between PS Audio P10 power plant and a Transparent Powerisolator Reference, which would you choose and why? Both available at reasonable prices, though P10 is still quite a bit more. I have a pretty high end system with a Musical Fidelity NuVista 800 integrated amp, NuVista CD (the new one), Scoutmaster turntable, SDS/ADS, Herron VTPH2, Wilson Sashas, and all Transparent Ref MM2 cables. System sounds great, but my present Powerbank 8 is quite old now, so I want to upgrade it.
Thanks for your opinions.
127 responses Add your response
I commented earlier (above) on this, but I am simply astonished at the comments that poo-poo buffering power regenerators. Not a single negative comment rings true in my personal experience over at least 10 years of use with numerous different regenerators and audio gear. In fact ...JUST THE OPPOSITE: Every positive quality of my audio gear is enhanced and whatever power-noise there was is ...gone gone gone. I can only guess that those who did not get these results either oversubscribed their power regenerator or had other issues in their systems. I'd love to hear more specific information about what you used, and your audio stack. Otherwise, based on my experience and those I trust I have to say you are way off base. Please explain... |
@reynolds853 [ shhh! don’t tell them how great an amp the Ayon Triton III is... I pulled the superior but failure-prone original Ayon KT88 BTSX tubes (@$180 each) and am just now getting the replacement Gold Lions into the fully-burned-in state. I’ll go back to the Ayon BTSX tubes, but the Gold Lions sound very nice now and after emailing back-and-forth with Ayon I now know that my Triton III is also factory-ready for KT150 tubes. So, that’s the next experiment. ...I’ll bet they sound great with the additional benefits of my power regenerator, eh? (grin...) ] |
| Post removed |
Wells Audio just come out with a reference power conditioner I question any audio company that states, "The specially designed outlets have phosphor bronze contacts (the best sounding material for audio contacts)..." Given they use a circuit developed by Jack Bybee, and their reference uses Bybees, I would recommend checking out the Bybee Stealth, over the Wells. |
Originally Posted by vicweast What a great attitude! 😄 I guess this deserves the same respect in reply. "Ignorance is bliss." "One man's trash is another man's treasure." 😁 You own the gear, you're happy with it, and you seem set in your opinion (and those you trust)...so why question it? |
@jay23 What is behind my attitude is the disconnect between my experiences, the experiences of those I know and in contrast what a few posts here stated. Taken together they do not agree: Hence the question — what gear, what circumstances? I asked that because I do think it possible to get different results, but clean power is clean power and an abundance of clean power to draw-down (buffered/stored) in a transformer during dynamic passages is power you did not otherwise have on tap through the wall. So, what were the circumstances? Unless the answer is just opinion or hand waving, it’s an answer to be mentally plotted in a space of appropriate/inappropriate uses for power regenerators. To date, no negative experience I have read of rises above "opinion", I’m looking for more than just "good", "bad", made my music "sound green"... I can’t process those in a meaningful way because I have come to fear opinions as completely subjective. [Subjective isn’t bad, it’s just "thin" unless it comes with an abundance of descriptors such that the reader can relate to the opinion as a substantial one rather than someone at the end of a keyboard just being ...social and saying "it’s bad for music listening" ...the question remains: why? ...After all, it is just clean and abundant power. These discussions sometimes remind me of politics, a nasty topic that is light on fact, ignores fact, or builds on fact: the three are quite different. Sorry for bringing it up, but it is just an example.] Given the wealth of technical material I have read on the topic over several years, and given the experiences I pointed to: How is it possible that the addition of an appropriately-sized power regenerator can generate a negative music listening experience? (I am open to any answer that informs, rather than a brush-back answer.) |
Inna....I've never had any success with power conditioners....yes, they all change the sound of the system, but all of them (and I tried many) created warts I wasn't prepared to live with. You will never know what one of these things do unless you put it in your own system and listen. If you can't do that....simply save your money. (I surmise you have good power cords which DO make a difference...but too you have to hear one that works well with your own system). |
Vic & Jay, From my experience I’d say you are both correct in your comments. I was in the shop one day and saw a couple of Tripp Lite isolation transformers laying around. One was an IS1000 (8.3 Amp rating) and the other was an IS500 (4.2 Amp rating). I figured I’d see what they’d do since the current readout on my Panamax 5500 usually read 3.4 Amps when playing both components in my system. I put the amp through the IS1000 and the media player through the IS500. The noise floor of the system dropped significantly but it was also obvious the system was being choked. The PRAT suffered terribly, as did the sound stage, dynamics, etc. But hearing what it did with the noise floor was certainly enough to make me want to investigate a unit appropriate for my system. In conversations with Bryston I learned that as a result of their testing in order to avoid the detrimental results I had experienced with the undersized isolation transformers they actually use a 30 Amp transformer in the 15-series units and a 40 Amp in the 20-series units. So, from my experience, I can attest to the ill effects from an undersized power conditioning piece, but likewise, when the unit was right-sized for my system (actually a bit of overkill I’d say) the results have only been very positive. Cheers, |
I'm have also heard power conditioners choke systems. The audioquest niagara (I mentioned I became a dealer for) can actually deliver 90 amps for short bursts, which I can hear has helped dynamics. (As well as noise floor)There are some great videos on YouTube where Garth Powell explains his philosophy and history of power conditioners he developed at furman and now audioquest. Pretty fascinating and you can hear the demo system's improvement even over the Web. Which seems crazy but I had a friend confirm it. |
Originally Posted by vicweast You're talking about adding another huge transformer, in addition to the at least one you have in your amps. Instantaneous current delivery is important for music reproduction. Check out this video ( https://youtu.be/4qCK--lRFd0 ), from Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research. To put the onus back on you - since you can't measure the DTCD - have you at least measured the ASCC before and after your regenerator? |
arsh, If you're willing to at least buy something from The Cable Company, they have their "Cable Library" that has line conditioners you can try in your own system. https://thecableco.com/content.aspx?iid=5777 There should be no reason you can't demo conditioners, even in your own system, outside of lack of desire or slightly added shipping costs. |
I have used the P10 with Transparent cabling and it has worked well. I have also used older Transparent power cords with the P10 and they worked well also. But when i changed to the High Fidelity MC 6 Hemisphere the sound stage just about doubled. The only negative trade off was the Hemisphere has no spike or surge protection. The P10 is a nice unit but the Hemisphere blew it away in sound performance. My P10 sat on a PSaudio Powerbase and had the rear panel fuse up graded. All where improvements over the stock P10 by it self. The Hemisphere just sounded much more musical and detailed.The Hemisphere will take all of 600 plus hours to be at its best. I have not tried any of the Transparent conditioners. I think both the P10 and the MC 6 Hemisphere have a 30 day money back policy. Enjoy Pete |
I just installed an ISOCLEAN power outlet and I think it's very good. http://isocleanpower.com/product_23.htm |
This is a very interesting thread. As far as balanced power goes, I have only read a little about this and all of it has been vendor material. I have yet to get an audio amp manufacturer (other than PS Audio) to weigh in, and would welcome that. @jay23 Thank you for the excellent video which brilliantly shows one of the problems when "everything in the chain" needs to be up to a minimal level. I completely understand the demonstrated example where the power cord was sub-par in terms of denying the meter the full current that would otherwise be available. You are correct: I should get such a meter and perform an electrical test at the wall outlet and again at a P10 outlet. That would be informative in terms of what "load" the P10 presents. ...However, what is a "huge transformer" from a load perspective? Certainly it presents a loss in terms of consuming current, but it also buffers current in its magnetic core. If I understand simple electrical theory sufficiently, then that loss is an issue when the amp draw approaches the effective current limit at the component/amp socket. If I understand this, that means we need a properly sized power regenerator that exceeds the amp draw by some not-by-myself-understood amount of unused current. For my Ayon and other components, these are drawing no more than 750va ...and the P10 is capable of 1500va — a 50% excess of power is available. Did I get that right? If so, where is the starving? |
I had a PS Audio Premier and replaced it with a Transparent Power Isolator 4. The Transparent was a huge step up from the Premier, so I would go with the Transparent. I would also have dedicated lines put in if you don't have them already. They make a huge difference. If you don't have dedicated lines, do that before getting a power conditioner, if you can. |
arsh, I am a big Transparent cabling fan and a number of years ago, I was visiting Audio Advice in Raleigh NC. Their main room featured Wilson Audio speakers, ARC/Bryston gear and OPUS complete cabling. They were also using all of the different Transparent PC in all of their rooms, even the smaller/less costly set-ups. Mark Levinson, Classe' Rotel B&W, Aerial speakers. |
Jafant, thanks for your comments. I am also a big fan of Transparent. I have been very happy with all of their products I have owned. Their customer service is excellent; they are very helpful and willing to answer questions. Not only that but they know the technical facets of their products very well (not always the case with some companies I have encountered). When have called them with questions over the years, I usually get to talk with the same people--nice to have consistent contacts. Definitive Audio in Seattle is a great high-end dealer, and they cable all their best systems (Wilson, ARC, Dagostino, etc) with Transparent. They got me started on Transparent gear years ago. I'm excited to hear what the PIR and XLPC do in my system. |
arse I have always been skeptical of power conditioners. What I do like is the Kubala Sosna XPander. Plug all your gear into that and you should be good. I have two Bricasti M 28 mono blocks and the M1 DAC plus tow Wilson Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generator amps plus a Melco N1 player/storage. Sounds very good to my ears and no adjustments or knobs or dials to mess with. Jim |
So, based on comments here and elsewhere I called Transparent and asked about their power conditioners. The young guy was very nice, and he tried to be helpful but alas, he could not give me a technical explanation for his marketing/sales spiel. This is the problem I have when I call most audio companies and ask for help in understanding their benefits at a technical level. For power conditioning gear I really expect to get my basic questions answered. What I got was that the Transparent gear uses a parallel approach in how they voltage clamp and remove transients/noise. I heard the name "avalanche diode" repeatedly, but when I asked how that worked... no information. I asked him to contrast their approach with the approach that power regenerators take, and he said "we don’t really follow other vendors in this space" -- a fair statement, but I was a bit put off as well. I do not want to create a negative impression about my experience: But I did not get technical enlightenment on much of what Transparent does or how the overall category or power conditioners works and (especially) how they might negatively impact music. What I will say is that most of what I have read and most of what I have heard strikes me as non-technical and not empirical at all. I simply want to know why some people (Transparent sales included) firmly state that when they listen to audio gear through a regenerator they believe that the sound is constricted and the sound stage suffers. I take this as BS. The only way that can happen is if the device itself restricts the FULL CURRENT THAT THE ATTACHED AUDIO GEAR NEEDS. If your regenerator provides more than the maximum draw, how is it restricting anything? In fact I’ll go further and say that if the regenerator transformer is large enough, you will get more power at peak sections of music than the wall would be able to provide! So, if you really understand what is happening: Please explain it ...in technical terms. (Remember, I have not suffered this problem with my regenerators, and my attached audio gear does not draw more than 50% of the regenerator’s rated capabilities. It is power, it is ample and it is clean power. Please explain.) |
Take a look at Jon Risch's comments in the link below. Perhaps the regenerator(s) are sized appropriately for the RMS current, but starve when the peak requirements occur? I'm certainly no expert on this, just passing along info from someone who knows way more than I do. http://www.geocities.ws/jonrisch/ac-cords.htm |
When I call Transparent for information, which has been many times over the years, I have always gotten very good and clear explanations as well as a excellent customer service and an attitude of being helpful and willing to answer the questions that I have. Try calling and asking to speak to Demos or Josh. |
Before money is spent on conditioners, you owe it to yourself to listen the Purist Limited Edition power cord, or better yet the 25th Anniversary AC power cord, or very best 30th Anniversary AC power cord. :-) As to these ratings on the conditioners and regenerators, I think bcowen may have nailed it. I.E. they look good on paper for RMS, but when the transient of a big pop on a snare drum, or the dynamic pluck of bass guitar, everything is boringly softened. |
The best power conditioners were not offered to high end audio. They were made by Elgar (still in business). They used a massive isolation transformer which had a feedback winding on it. A low distortion oscillator was used, synced to the AC line frequency. The output of the transformer was then compared to that of the oscillator and a correction voltage was generated and applied to the feedback winding. The result was AC voltage regulation and THD of no more than 0.1% at full current (one of the larger units could supply 28 amps). The biggest problem that power conditioners face is the 5th harmonic of the line frequency, which most conditioners can't filter out. This harmonic heats up power transformers, causes rectifiers to become noisy and causes reverse currents to exist in AC synchronous motors. IOW its pretty pesky. By comparison, spikes and high frequency noise are non-issues! The Elgars are some of the few conditioners that not only eliminate the high frequency noise but also the 5th harmonic. The SP Audio regenerator conditioners can filter this noise but don't have the capacity for high current. So they can be problematic if you have a higher power tube amplifier or a higher power class A transistor amp where there is a larger amount of steady state current draw. Elgar saw years ago that the power conditioner market was shrinking and moved their business model away from that part of the market. So these days to get the best you have to buy them used and have them refurbished. Its rare that one can talk about the best in high end audio but this is one of those cases. |