This is the same Old Power cord arguments.
Let's just say that as your equipment improves the differences in cables will be more appreciable. |
I can't believe I'm weighting in again on this point but some people are trying to make things which are subjective into absolute truth.
I tried to point this out with humor/sarcasm but it seems not to have had any effect on the tone of discussion.Your points and opinions are necessary for us to learn from each other in this forum but we all hear differently and are not always seeking the same things.
1)In my system at my house,which none of you have heard,power cords made noticeable changes to overall sound.
This comes as a complete surprise to me.I tried 3 different cords and have had 3 different sounds.This does not mean that at your house it will be the same.
2)The original poster asked for advice on cords which moved the soundstage back.He states he has heard this effect.I too have heard this effect and answered the question to assist him in his search.I'm pretty sure I'm not delusional in hearing this because this is something I do not enjoy or want, but again this is what they were looking for.
3)Nowhere in their question do they mention they own or have owned a power conditioner.This may be another area we are missing in this discussion. A lot of people with conditioners say power cords have less/no effect when using conditioners.I do not have a conditioner so maybe that is why I can here differences.We cannot even agree if it better to use a conditioner or not but I will at sometime try one and see for myself on my system.
4)It seems,from reading other forums, that better power supplies are not as effected by power cords.Maybe our power supplies are not as well made as yours.Maybe we could not afford or did not know the difference a good power supply had on sound and are doing the best we can to learn to make it better.This is where the point of spending money on better components is well taken.
The main point I am trying to make is we do not want to tell or imply other people they are idiots are mentally ill because they hear differently.If you haven't noticed the OP is in hiding.We who hear cord differences would never say that you have bad ears or that that your system is not good.I'm sure your ears and system are very good.I would hate for this opportunity to learn to start to look like the HATE I see when reading about politics and sports.
Sorry about this being so long.I am not a very good typist so it took a lot longer to type than to read.
Danny
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Your right, it's Magic. They build most of those cables at Hogwarts. |
How do better power cables "work"? They:
1. have better conductors than lamp cord (I.E. bigger gauge, fewer stands, better metal)
2. have better shielding and/or geometry that cancels RFI/EMI from getting into the wire itself
3. or, more importantly, have better geometry/shielding that prevents RFI/EMI from leaking out of the cord and interfering with your low level audio signals in your nearby interconnects or the fancy circuits inside your gear
4. have better connectors that grip IEC and AC plugs firmly and better alloys that more efficiently transfer current.
5. are fatter, with fancier wrappers that make their owners feel special.
To respond to some of the comments above that after market power cords are either a bunch of whoo-ie, or that at least beyond certain simple structural improvements have no real impact, I suggest that there is a lot of room for design improvements that can especially affect #3 above, and that this is the place where the greatest benefits accrue.
I hear differences in sound between $99, $250 and $800 cords. I agree that the incremental benefits decay exponentially with increasing cost, but some people are willing to pay for those differences whether it is with wire, electronics, speakers and room treatments. If you don't hear any difference between different power cables, then God bless you and all that money you are saving.
PS - I could not help but laugh out loud at Stewie's posts above. |
Update. After 6 glasses of the 2006 Trotanoy Pomerol Kathy Bates looks like Gisele Bundchen. |
Macdadtexas,
While I apreciate your and others right to an opinion, your assertion that so long as the power is "clean" or if a high quality AC conditioner is present, then little or no gain can be realized from high end (expensive) powercords down stream is false to my ears. This has NOT been my finding on occasions too numerious to mention. In fact I suspect that if I could plug my system directly into the local power plant it would sound better then it does today and if I used my power conditioner and power cords it would sound better still and in the exact same ways it does 10 miles from my local power plant.
As always, and I am sure NO ONE will disagree with this- listen for yourself and then decide. Anyone who tries to talk anyone out of simple listening tests, at home no less, has an agenda. This hobby is about listening to music and getting the most from our personal systems after all. |
Shellie, it's funny you bring up a power plant, you see I'm not exactly ignorant of how those work seeing as how I have developed, in a group, greater than 15 power plants over the last 10yrs. That's about 7000 MW of power. That has given me access to a lot of brilliant electrical engineers, and they would tell you that your proximity to the plant would make no differnce since you would need a step down transformer anyway, so that doesn't make any sense.
I no longer work for the company that built them, and I am not an electrical engineer, but I have worked on the design, construction, of all aspects at this point, and I love to bring strings like this to the attention of my buddies who are transmission and power circuit design engineers, it gives them a tremendous amount of pleasure. Your latest post I am sure will be memorialized by them.
Once your power goes from the wall or the power conditioner, as long as the correct volume of electrons, flow into the transformer of the amp/preamp/source then the transformer powers up the remainder of the circuit, tell me again how the power cord affected that? If it is getting the power, enough power to the ciruit the transformer then takes over the power duties. The power transformer can and does affect sound, and the better the gear, usually the better the transformer and the rest of circuit. So if you think your super expensive cord sounds better than a moderate one, good for you. IT'S MAGIC. Did you buy it on Diagon Alley (semi-obscure Harry Potter reference).
Please, could we get a comment from a real electrical engineer here?
Also, I have done this listening test with some very expensive cables, and never heard any difference at all, and power amps used are MASSIVE power hogs, so that should have made a difference.
I usually respect other peoples opinion, unless you are screaming an opinion that makes no sense.
Tell yourself it's better, if it makes you feel better. Hey, I have some land I'd like you to look at too, really great price just for you |
Also Shellie, from looking at your other posts, I wonder if you actually work for or represent some cable company, because that is almost exclusively what you discuss. Always the same mantra "buy expensive cables". So, do you work a purveyor or build expensive cables? |
Hey Mac,will you help me build my own plant so I can hear the full potential of the valhalla pc that I use with my playstation1?I'll buy the beer!!! |
We could put in a GE LM6000, the heat rate is not as good as a 7fe, but smaller footprint. If we do it in Texas or California there is an excellent secondary market for exces power. I'll get a buddy to work up the plans. At about $22 million it won't cost much more than Shellie's power cords. |
$22 million?I was thinking more like a couple of hundred and all the beer you can drink.Geez,I'll have to rethink this.I'll get back with you. |
Power cords (plugs and cable) are another variable for me to tweak the sonics of my system. I have tried power conditioning, but did not care for the minor loss in dynamics, and blunting of the transient edges and decay. Now, I run a high quality BPT strip and I prefer the sound I get out of it. Even when I was using the power conditioner, I could still hear power cord differences. I suppose that some power conditioners may have outlets or circuitry that might limit what differences one could hear with PC changes.
Regardless of my experience, I would advise my fellow audiophiles to try a conditioner(s) and see if they like it.
I clearly hear differences with PCs and so do my friends. If some contributors to this thread do not, fine, we have heard your opinion. My equipment is quite good. I would not say there are any power supply design defects with my components. I do not suffer from placebo effects, or are delusional.
Just because some people cant hear differences in their system does not mean that others will not.
To move the soundstage back, in general, I would suggest trying some copper wire based cable with high copper ends. |
Macdadtexas,
No I am not in the audio business. I am an audiophile. I love music and playing around with audio gear. For years that meant components and speakers- not cables and "tweaks". I learned a lot but never got to where I wanted to go sound wise. The sound was always compressed and lacked the holographic presence I sought. This changed when I found cables and in particular power cords.
My post(s) were in response to what I see as an anti-audiophile bias from some who pretend to have interest in a subject, like "what power cords move the soundstage back" only to make fun and deny what those of us who have actually taken the time to listen clearly hear. This is usually followed by an appeal to authority that implies the anti-audiophile stance is correct while those of us who enjoy the benefit of audiophile products (cables, line conditioners, cones, racks, etc) are delusional, or worse.
So we can't trust our ears? Back to my first point- whom or what can we trust? Our senses, or someone trying to convince us that we should not trust our senses and should instead place our trust in their straw man arguments? Are you here to save us? Had you posted something along the lines of "all amplifiers sound alike and when not, they are colored or of poor construction. Had I read that thread or post, I would have asked the same questions, made the same points, and shared my observations. All for the exact same reasons I am posting here. The fact is, after years of messing around with components and speakers I have never found any component or speaker system to deliver the same level of improvement (over other components and speakers) in sound I get from careful cable system matching. This observation is based on a dollar to benefit earned basis, so value.
Anyway, good to know your position and again while you are clearly entitled to it, it is contrary to what I and thousands of audiophiles around the world experience every day. Take the OP's reason for starting this thread in the first place. It was looking for answers to which cables could help him/her realize their audio goals and not "do power cords really work?" and certainly not can I trust my ears. |
Macdadtexas,
Your humor is much appreciated. We just hear things a little differently;-)
You say "Once your power goes from the wall or the power conditioner, as long as the correct volume of electrons, flow into the transformer of the amp/preamp/source then the transformer powers up the remainder of the circuit, tell me again how the power cord affected that? If it is getting the power, enough power to the ciruit the transformer then takes over the power duties. The power transformer can and does affect sound, and the better the gear, usually the better the transformer and the rest of circuit. So if you think your super expensive cord sounds better than a moderate one, good for you. IT'S MAGIC."
You have addressed part of the story, current delivery to the transformer in your gear. But not the possibility of modification of the AC waveform in the power cable itself between the wall or the power conditioner and the transformer. Or, more importantly in my opinion, the possibility of interference from the raw AC in your power delivery cable with nearby interconnects and speaker cables and/or electronic circuits in adjacent gear.
Given my rudimentary understanding of electrical circuits and electromagnetism, this last effect is the most compelling reason that I and others can detect an audible difference between different power cables. I suggest you might want to ask your electrical engineering friends if suppression of interference from a high current power delivery cable with adjacent low voltage audio signal delivery cables and electrical circuits could, in theory at least, cause an audible effect.
With that said, I thank my lucky stars everyday that you and your colleagues successfully develop and implement 500KW power plants and electrical grids so I can push the play button on my CDP, and it plays without fail, not to mention other blessings like a working furnace fan, electric lights, etc. But just as I would not necessarily go to a podiatrist for a pain in my side, I would suggest that the specific expertise needed to successfully deliver 1000KW to the power grid is not the same expertise needed to deliver a chain of electrons through a random collection of electronic and electromechanical devices patched together with wires of various specifications in various physical configurations so that the outcome is something approximating a live musical performance. I am not a shill for wire snake oil, but my guess is that there is a lot going on in the space between the wall socket, our boxes and our speakers, and given all the variables and potential permutations of wire and gear selections each of us are making all the time, it is an inexact science at best with very few fixed controls. This may also be partly why some people hear big effects from power cables while others do not.
Given all this variability, there is something to be said for a company like Naim that sells wires that have been tested by the manufacturer for compatibility with their gear under controlled conditions. You could probably improve on their selections with other wire products, but you would have to go through a similar or more elaborate and expensive (to you) series of testing your self. For what it is worth, Naim offers an upgraded power cable for use with their gear. One could say this new product offering is just a marketing gimmick, but given their almost fanatical attention to power management and delivery, it is also possible they have decided this might provide a real benefit... |
Shellie and Knownothing (once again, very Plato-esque), you may now only refer to me as your Copernicus.
Neither of you are members of the inquisition are you?
Or since you obviously are practicioners of Magic, with your Magic Electric cords, are you by chance minions of the Dark Lord, "He Who Cannot be Named"? Oh what the heck, are your Magic cords some dark magic from Lord Voldemort? |
You won't believe what just happened! The passionate (panicked) defense of hugely expensive power cord purchases swayed me and I went out and bought the most expensive cord my dealer had, thanks for opening for a Monday emergency Viet, and you guys were right.
I plugged the cord into one of my amps (sorry couldn't afford the $5k more for the second one) and when I turned on the system it started to GLOW, and then when I set the arm down onto Police's "Ghost in the Machine" (irony), the whole room began to shake, and the very air seemed to pulsate. Suddenly there was a great flash, and I was knocked out. But through my semi-conscious state I could here the strains of "Spirits in the Material World" beginning as I have never heard them before. My God, you are right, what a difference.
But my God, as I came to I realize that the sound is so great because my system is now gone and The Police themselves have materialized in my living room. Shellie you were right about my ears, I just needed to once again do a listening test with an open mind.
I can't wait to see what happens when I put on The Beatles or Jimmy Hendrix. I'm going to get the camera out for that. |
Mac,now stop exaggerating.You know good and well that Sting doesn't do private gigs. |
TP, Really, reallly, Really????? Then why did I just spend the last half hour at Whole Foods buying organic everything for a Vegan meal?
Thanks God Stuart was raised in Lebanon, he wants some bloody lamb chops (got those at Whole Foods too)!! |
Here are the best amps to try the most exotic power cords on!
[http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1264294258&/Handcrafted-De-Longhi-Ultimate] |
Macdadtexas, It is sad that you have closed your mind to a very big area of audio improvment.
That is, that the proper power cord for a component can really bring that component to its full potential.
Making jokes out of ignorance only shows that you either have never tried a quality power cord, do not own the equiment to appreciate it, or your hearing is shot.
No Matter, you should really get out of this hobby, for searching for the best sound is what being an Audiophile means. |
Ozzy, that sounds pretty personal. Don't worry, everyone is impressed by your purchases, and I'm sure you are right that your power cords are changing music. You are a genuis and a great man, and I am humbled and shamed by your criticism, I believe my life is changed. |
Trolling is a game about identity deception, albeit one that is played without the consent of most of the players. The troll attempts to pass as a legitimate participant, sharing the group's common interests and concerns; the newsgroups members, if they are cognizant of trolls and other identity deceptions, attempt to both distinguish real from trolling postings, and upon judging a poster a troll, make the offending poster leave the group. Their success at the former depends on how well they and the troll understand identity cues; their success at the latter depends on whether the troll's enjoyment is sufficiently diminished or outweighed by the costs imposed by the group. |
Don't you find it interesting that the original poster of this thread hasn't posted again since his OP? Do you think the Trolls scared him away? (o: |
here is a thread that gives some small clarification to the posters above who seem to be struggling with the reality of power cords impact on sound. the comments from esoteric engineers i find particularly validating and i think parallels what you would hear from most designers in the high end industry.
in the end, maybe this will help you achieve better sound in your system by experiencing what most of us all ready know...
http://www.avguide.com/forums/ac-power-cord |
They have a good money maker going.They have a huge markup and the advertiser/reviewers love it. A $20 cord will bring you all the same dirty power you need.I've heard mega buck cords at home,and in mega buck systems($300,000 systems is mega buck in my book)and the dealers have them there to keep the customers happy.They said they like the profit too.They did have a good time swapping them out and comparing them with me.They actually had a good laugh too.Here is a $20 cord that is even shielded too.It may out do the $2000 all markup cord.[http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14] |
Sorry, I haven't joined in this for a while, I was "trolling" other places. Well, really Shellie made me cry and stay in bed the last week :( |
