Oh good, this thread is back after a year ... 🙄
Power cable dilemma
I have to ask the community for an explanation to account for an issue I encountered this past week.
I received a Mark Levinson ML-23.5 amp this past week. I plugged it in with a high end power cord I purchased years ago (because it looked better than the cheap cord that came with the unit. Lol). I switched from an ML-9 so I had certain expectation of the sound. After listening for about 30 minutes, I noticed that the amp did not sound very dynamic. I got up to go feel how hot it was and the heat sinks were barely warm. I turned up the volume and listened for another 15-20 minutes. I got up to check the temperature and the heat sinks were still barely warm. Also, I was playing the amp at volume level 28 on my Cambridge 851N. That is pretty high. The sound was still lifeless. I shut everything down and just sat there, dejected. Was the amp defective? Was it just a bad match? Were my expectations too high? I don’t know what made me try it, but I swapped out the power cord with a plain black cord and powered up the system. Unreal. I was now listening at volume level 22 to the same song, with staggering dynamic impact, at what seemed to be a similar volume. Furthermore, after about 20 minutes, I went up to feel the amp and the heat sinks were very toasty! So the question is: what could have possibly been wrong with the original cord that would result in lower volumes and no heat buildup? It is like it was throttling the current. To me, a cord either connects or it doesn’t. It works or it doesn’t. There should not be an in between. Does anyone have an explanation for this?
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seems you heard this statement (opinion) from one source and then asking us is he/she correct? It’s simply an unsupported opinion. Generally, in high-end audio it’s a good idea to upgrade the stock power cord, but you don’t have to spend anywhere near 2k, there are many much less costly alternatives. Maybe borrow or buy used with option to resell. |
So long as you have the right gauge and the connectors are not compromised and the cable not wired incorrectly, power cables make zero difference. Measurements prove that. Double blind listening tests also. I have owned from the most expensive to off the rack cables and they all "sound" the same. Just make sure you are in the 12awg range and you ll be fine. Everything else is psychoacoustics, biases and marketing. Save your money for speakers and room treatments! |
@carlsbad One could probably measure the voltage drop across the various power cords with the same program material playing. If they sound different that it is either that they are providing better power, or doing something with noise. But I have no idea what the fellow’s 200W draws in terms of current. And a different 200W will likely draw something different if the power supply section is not the same. |
Yesterday a guy on another forum thought I was arguing with him but as a physicist I was just explaining to him why he was wrong. He told me his 14 awg cable was plenty good for any amp up to 2400 watts became that is what the code says. (20 amps). Since he worked in a hospital, he felt he was an expert and that "hospital grade" was a great upgrade. I told him that I fully understood his misconceptions and wished him luck. He asked me if the dynamics and bass that I said he would be missing would be coming in through his house power..... I challenged him since he believed all he needed was the ampacity in his power cord to run his nameplate current that he should run his amp with a 26 awg power cable. the boilerplate ampacity of 26 awg is 2.2 amps. At 120V that is 260 watts. His amplifier is 200 watts. He didn't have an explanation why he didn't think 26 awg would be ok, even though his logic said that is 14 awg was good for 2400 watts. This is the kind of guy who sells a good amp next year because it doesn't have good bass and dynamics. Jerry |
@holmz Heh heh. |
@jrimer However a lot of people that have systems that are a few steps up from mine tend to be into cables and power conditioners. The other factor is that some equipment may have more “sturdy” power supplies and are immune to cables. A good amp for instance, should be converting the AC into DC and filling large capacitor banks for the energy needed to push out the current (voltage) between the incoming AC ripples. Ignoring the ground, one should be able to monitor the voltage of the internal power supply while playing some known content… like with a DAC that does ADC. I have not seen that done, but that would be a way to convince myself that something is different. If we hold the manufacturer to supply such info then we might see it.
Those manufacturers have enough of a loyal following that will do a “Joan of Arc” fight for them, that it is a bit pointless to get too wrapped up in it (At least for me personally.) That gear may actually work, but I am disinclined to try it as my system sounds good enough, and I’ll save the funds for things that may work, or that I like the looks of… YMMV.
@soix Nina Simone… 😎 |
Who gives one great God damn if there’s been a “quantum leap” or not? If it’s better to your ears and in your system, who cares??? My question is, why do you feel you need numbers to tell you it’s better?
No, you need to bring out your big-boy audio ears and make a big-boy decision for yourself. If you wanna use your nose, feel free, but just being able to trust your own ears and make a decision for yourself is what it’s all about. And, as I said before, there’s no better area other than cables to be able to do this. When you call this utter BS it makes me think again you’d be much more comfortable on ASR where they can tell you absolutely by numbers what sounds better. Yeesh
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If McIntosh used lamp cord in 1990 and here we are today with a plethora of choices...that is a quantum leap IMHO. And to be frank, if you selected a $40 Pangea cable for your Mark Levinson amplifier - as you stated - you should re-evaluate your audiophile creed. God knows what cable your preamp or source uses..just stop...posting.
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soix…so you would agree that power cable technology has made “quantum leaps” in the last 5 years? That’s all I want substantiated. I don’t care about any other cables. I don’t care about sound comparisons. All of you fragile audio elites get way too defensive over all this cable stuff. I just want someone to publicly agree with this absurd claim so I and all rational audiophiles can have a good laugh. I don’t need “big boy audio ears”. I just need a good nose to sniff out this utter BS. |
I can’t, but there are certainly meaningful difference so I’d suggest you get off your arse and try some that seem to have the sound qualities you’re looking for. After all, cables are by far the easiest components to try in your own system either thru buying used or trial periods. Asking for measurements is really just silly. You can do it, but it ain’t gonna happen. I know when I first reviewed AZ cables they purported to have very low capacitance and actually sent me numbers that I don’t have anymore, but I couldn’t find similar measurements of other cables so in the end it mattered not one bit. No cable manufacturer I’m aware of publishes specs. Time to just take out your big-boy audio ears and decide for yourself. |
”ALL I ASKED WAS EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT POWER CORD TECHNOLOGY HAS MADE A QUANTUM LEAP IN THE LAST 5 YEARS. That’s it…” @whipsaw kinda nailed it succinctly. +1 . Simple “NO”. (1) CARDAS ,for example are a very fine cable supplier who has patents on their bespoke cable designs , and use their own custom bespoke OCC copper source But even they don’t pontificate with such hyperbole claims. Price has no bearing on whether a different cable will or will not be an improvement in your system synergy. (2) As @whipsaw highlighted above, it is completely a bespoke trial and error experiment that cannot be measured neither empirically or otherwise.it may be better, or maybe not. It’s unique for each user … full stop. Different cables have different sonic signatures . Hence such aggressive claims cannot be accepted or generalized in the first part with any credence…. , and certainly entirely dismissable for any hyperbole claiming “quantum leap” improvements. Here are a couple YouTube videos on CARDSS cable construction differences among them vis a vis the other contenders and the pretenders …they may or may not stir your drink.
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I understand your frustration, but the obvious answer is no, which is why the contributions seem tangential. Hell, there isn't even empirical evidence that a high four or five-figure (lol!) power cord performs better than a solid three-figure one! Perhaps some of those involved in designing and constructing them could articulate some smaller steps forward that have been made over the past five years, but a "quantum leap"? Please. |
I don’t think anyone is reading my posts because everyone is arguing about something I’m not even claiming! ALL I ASKED WAS EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT POWER CORD TECHNOLOGY HAS MADE A QUANTUM LEAP IN THE LAST 5 YEARS. That’s it. I’m not debating whether power cords make a difference. I’m not asking for blind tests. I’m simply wanting to know why no one is calling out someone who is making that absurd claim, yet lecturing me on something I’m not even arguing. People, please read my posts. |
To be fair, @jrimer would you not need "empirical data" to prove your contradiction? i.e.; that a power cord makes a difference, or in your eyes, does not make a difference? If you purchased an aftermarket cable from Pangea and experienced a cable fail, I can see how you would be skeptical. Not only did it not make a difference; but it failed miserably! I can understand your consternation going forward with any further power cord purchases. Failures happen inexplicably. I had an electrical outlet on the wall work and then suddenly! not work. No surge; nothing! Flipped it out for a new one and trashed the one that failed - like you did with your Pangea. I can attest that blind tests are flawed. If you tell me your gonna test me, then I get excited and that pretty much blows the result. However, if a blind test includes my stereo that I listen to 3-4 hours daily, then I can pick it out of a lineup every time. So can my wife, which is "empirical data" in my world. I guess if I had to do better to provide "empirical data" on this matter, I would point out that there are many cable companies making many millions of dollars. Audioquest revenue is $14 million a year and started in 1980. The industry has escalated in the past 10 years due to the fact that IEC sockets replaced captive cords in most higher end gear that would benefit from a third-party cord. This started, in earnest, in the early 90's just after McIntosh was sold to Clarion. I know Roger Russell had a lot to say about this matter (he and Gordon Gow were staunchly anti-cable because it could not be measured) in his memoirs, but he did in fact notice an audible difference in using 4 ohm speakers to 8 ohm speakers and attributed it to the need for less resistance, or bigger AWG cable. So that means that you too should hear a difference if your speakers go below 4 ohms and you have a 3x16AWG cable and then drop down to a 3x12AWG -similar to what he did:
While Roger was able to detect this resistance of the speakers on his scope, the "audible" difference was not measured in any way. Empirical evidence in this regard is not scientifically measurable..either way..but there was an audible difference nonetheless. In any regard, I wish you luck and urge you to try a cable that other Mark Levinson folks can attest. Your amplifier would most certainly be better for it and most cable manufactures will allow you to try one and return it - no questions asked - if you don't like it. I purchased a McIntosh RCA interconnect on Crutchfield and had 90-days to return it, so burn in was no issue either. There is zero risk involved; all you need to do is listen! 😁 |
soix, I’m going to guess you either did not read the whole thread or you just migrate around the site looking to play the ASR card. Someone made a claim that power cord technology has made “quantum leaps” in the last 5 years. I asked for proof. I made no broad statement about cables. If you can get off your high horse and find me some data to substantiate that claim I would be very appreciative. Until then, stop lecturing me about what constitutes an audiophile and telling me I don’t belong here. Your post perfectly exemplifies the stereotype of the pompous, condescending audiophile that rational people incessantly mock. |
Pretty clear the OP should migrate to ASR or just be a total cable denier and just stick with generic PCs and no longer sure why he’s now wasting our time here.
The empirical evidence comes from reading reviews, trying different cables that seem to offer what you’re looking for, try them, and move on from there. It’s called being an audiophile. If you need numbers to tell you what’s going to sound better you don’t belong here and we’d all be better off if you just looked for your answers on ASR if you can’t trust your own ears. If you can find the best cables going by numbers, goodonya but please don’t pollute this site any further because it’s utterly useless and ridiculous. I’ll just say that no — NO, manufacturer EVER displays their gear with generic cables. Why do you think that might be? Hmmm. ASR is calling your name. Good luck with that. |
Recently purchased an expensive amplifier (2K) and received a 3x16AWG black cord with it. If you purchase a component, you will likely receive a 3x18AWG black cord as I did in the last year of an equally valuable DAC. Producers of electronic equipment are not in the business of selling power cords, so what you get, is, in fact, less than optimum - according to them! Hence, if the "engineers and designers" are allowing for something other than the $10 cord they provide to be used; then there is plenty of doubt that it would be your best option. |
Well @jrimer if you are not keeping it, then someone else could see if it is also bad in their systems. How much do you want for it? |
You won’t find any empirical evidence or studies that show any correlation between the price of a power cord and any improvements made in the sound quality of a component like an amp. Do you really think that the engineers and designers that produce very expensive amplifiers would include a cheap cord with their product if they had any reason at all to believe that including a better one was necessary to enjoy its full audio quality potential? This is confirmation bias and not much else. A $2000 cord will not sound better than a $200 cord assuming that both are well made of quality materials. The profit margins on high-end audio cables is astronomical. A joke really. That said, if dropping a few thousand dollars on a power cord makes you happy, so be it. Many high-end cables are pretty to look at, so I guess that's something. |
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Getting back to your initial post, did you ever try this?
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It’s true that the vast majority of evidence supporting the claim that power cords can indeed impact sound quality is anecdotal. However, I would argue that the combined weight of such evidence is far too great to dismiss with the wave of a hand. I simply don’t find it credible that such a meaningful percentage of audiophiles are all slaves to propaganda and various, related biases. Furthermore, there are individual examples that carry much greater weight than the average testimonial. Take, for example, Paul McGowan of PS Audio. He is a well-known figure, who has produced many, many videos in which he attempts to answer questions from audiophiles, and his company is well respected, from what I can gather. So this relatively public figure, who certainly knows a fair bit about audio engineering, was for years selling power cords produced by his own company, but found that the high-end offerings of another brand (Audioquest) were superior, and not only decided to use them in his company’s extremely expensive reference system, but also to sell them through their website. In the video (linked below), Paul says:
He also claims to have done A/B blind testing, and that "everyone" hears the differences. He challenges anyone who is skeptical of different power cables making a difference to come and listen. The video is only ~six minutes:
To be clear, I have never used Audioquest cables, but even though Paul himself is unable to explain why there are such differences, it strains credulity to believe that he, and the others who were exposed to such tests on the reference system, somehow suffered from mass delusions. This also touches on what I have argued for years, based on my personal experiences, and those of more than a few other audiophiles. If confirmation/expectation biases are the explanation for why people hear differences in cables, then how is it possible that some have, at least at times, had precisely the opposite experience? In other words, like Paul in the above example, I have had several experiences over decades of developing systems in which I was disappointed in a newly acquired component, despite having had great incentive to prefer it. That doesn’t mean that I have "golden ears", nor that I never suffer from such biases. But it certainly does illustrate that hearing differences in cables can be the result of relatively objective listening. As a final note, Paul does stress that his impressions of the cables were confined to their synergy with very specific PS Audio components, and within that system. And I agree that context and synergy are crucial. |
If we're looking for lab tests, after searching, I can't really find any. I thought for sure there would be at least one or two out there, but as of yet, I haven't found one. It looks the only tests out there (beside manufacturer's descriptions) are mainly from audiophiles who have bought these cables, and have provided there own personal listening evaluations. |
Pangea is known for choking the sound. The PVC insulation in combination with 14 AWG is maybe the cause. Power cord technology hasn't changed much imo, but more exotic geometries, air diëlektricum, and the use of ultra pure metals (like OCC) have been introduced lately. 10-12 AWG OCC in teflon will do the job and for low level and digital components good shielding is all you need. After that point, you reach the tweaking zone for the last % of performance (connector quality, plating). |
A lot of that information is largely marketing.
They do indeed swear by it.
Largely there is not any. There are a few papers on power cords. But there is also the other snake head on the hydra, where we do not know which amps have power supplies that are more immune to noise than others. It could be true that some power cords help some amps. But with N amps and M power cords, it is an NxM solution space… and add in power conditioners and it becomes an even more massive set of combinations.
You may not be the audience that the power cord people are catering to.
Sadly you will probably be disappointed, as the examples seem well hidden to my searches. But a lot of people that I loosely know, and also respect, seem to also swear by cables, power conditioners and a lot of high-end ICs and speaker cables. |
I’m skeptical, but let’s see if pennfootball71 wants to maybe defend his statement.
I now see where you're coming from. |
Someone previously claimed that power cord technology has taken a quantum leap forward in the past 5 years. All I asked for was some evidence that shows current power cords are far superior to cords from 5 years ago (or 50 years ago, for that matter). I would preferably like some empirical evidence from someone other than a manufacturer or reviewer that can substantiate this claim. I’m not sure what you think I’m asking for. I’m not looking for it because I’m willing to bet it doesn’t exist. If someone is going to use hyperbolic terms to describe differences such as “quantum leap”, they should have no problem substantiating those claims. Right? |
I’m not sure anyone is going to hand deliver that information to your doorstep. You may have to search for it yourself on various websites, as it is out there. I’m also not sure exactly what information you’re specifically looking for. Almost every AC audio power cable website will probably contain some. Here’s one I just picked at random: Disclaimer: Please be aware that I’m not the type that buys AC cables that cost thousands of dollars. In all of the cables I use, or have used, in home audio, or broadcast audio, I’ve never heard an AC cable that dramatically changed the sound of the equipment it was plugged into. Audio cables, yes. AC cables, no. One thing I do use is balanced AC power. Even then I don’t believe it has made a dramatic difference in audio quality in my audio system(s), but I still incorporate it. |
Right. But where is the evidence that technology, and thus, performance, has advanced in the last 5 years? I’m not talking about price. I’ve been at this for 40 years, so I’m no novice. I’m also a rational thinking person that needs to see some concrete evidence to substantiate such absurd claims. No need to be delicate. Just show me the empirical evidence. Simple. |
How can I put this delicately (and I mean no offense)? Are you new to the audio scene? There's an immense amount of information out there on this particular subject. All you have to do is search for it. There are power cords out there that go for thousands and thousands of $$, and audiophiles swear by their performance. |
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What does mentioning which cord it is have to do with anything? If you read the thread you will see it mentioned about a half dozen times. Are you telling me that power cords from today are vastly (quantum leaps) superior to power cords from 5 years ago? Because if you are, I would love to see evidence of that! |
I like how he does not mention what “high end” power chord he purchased. Most older power cables are not great anymore and cable technology has made quantum leaps over the past 5 years!!! Try a 2 meter $2500 Kubala Sosna Elation! let it WARM UP 3 hours! It takes 3 hours to warm up any amplifier that you disconnect the power supply! Then listen. |
It would be interesting to see what the results would be if you switched the sequence of cables around next time in another study of your perception of amp temperature and performance, ie, starting out next time (with a cold amp) with the "plain black cord" for the exact same duration of time you used the Pangea cable last time (as the first power cable used). Understand what I’m saying? If the same results take place, maybe it’s just the amp venting some of it’s heat to the heat sinks after being powered up for a certain total length of time (using a combination of both AC cables), no matter what AC power cables were used, and in what sequence. I don’t know the entire design of the amp, so I don’t know if all of the operating current flows through the front panel ML-23.5 ON/OFF power switch, or if the front panel switch operates an internal relay, and all of the AC power/current then flows through relay contacts. From over the years arcing, some AC switches that pass high amounts of in-rush current can develop dirty contacts. It’s possible that maybe working the front panel switch a few times cleaned the contacts on the switch. These are just a few of my initial thoughts, but I do find your discovery interesting. It would also be interesting to measure the resistance of each cable, with a test meter (measuring one leg/conductor at a time), to see if there’s any kind of difference between the two. |
