@rauliruegas , I think unidin is a joke. As whether or not I can hear the difference between Lofgren A or B, I seriously doubt it. But, it make me feel better that I am using the alignment with the lowest distortion across most of the record. When aligning a cartridge I take the utmost care to get it exactly right using all the tools at my disposal. You are right in that it is a very small world and it is not easy to get it exactly right given the number of pitfalls. I am a furniture maker. I make furniture with hand cut joints that have to fit exactly right, no gaps. It takes a very fastidious mind to do that, unfortunately a mind that sees errors in everything it observes.
@drbond , darn right the MinusK works. The benefits of good isolation are legion. I would never own a turntable that was not properly suspended. The outside world is loaded with noise and rumble, vibration of all sorts. The cartridge is a very sensitive vibration measuring device and it has no way of knowing where the vibration comes from. For fun get a seismograph app on your phone and put it on a granite countertop. Watch what happens when the wife walks around or the AC starts up. Open the garage door, sneeze. Anyone who thinks mass is enough isolation needs to perform this experiment. Lastly, put your seismograph phone on the Dohmann's platter, dead quiet. Darn right it works.
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@holmz
Thanks for sharing your experience with Dohmann, and the details about cartridges that you discussed together! I’ll have to look into that WAM zenith disc, but I’ve been using the AnalogMagik software with decent results, and there is one aspect of that software, while not perfect, I’ve read can be used to help with zenith: apparently somehow the VTA measurement may actually do a better job at measuring zenith. The azimuth adjustment with the AnalogMagik software seems to do a good job, getting the crosstalk to match between channels, but there’s no way to meaure that SRA, so I’ll have to watch that video one weekend, and see if it’s worth it. Presently, I just use electonic level in my phone camera, and use that to verify that the tonearm is level (0 degrees) when playing.
I guess I should try the Baerwald alignment now that I’ve been listening to the UNIDIN for a few months. . .
I think that the turntable sounds phenomenal! One aspect that I think stands out is the balance of the presentation: the music is just balanced, so that the instruments are distinct, clear, and yet communicative and musical. There isn’t one range that overwhelms another.
I have two Schroder CB 11 tonearms installed, and I’ve used four cartridges thus far: the Lyra Atlas, Koetsu Urushi Black, My Sonic Lab Ultimate Platinum, and Lyra Etna Lambda SL. Presently, the latter two are installed.
If you’re ever visiting central Florida and want to listen, send me a message.
@mijostyn @sksos
Well, I’ll have to try the Loefgren B then!
Yes, there is a little post that you can lift to support the turntable while adjusting things. Once, I forgot to lower it after an adjustment, and left the post up, and the interference that I noted was remarkable, so that minus K really works!
@rauliruegas
Thanks for sharing your experience with the alignments!
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Dear @mijostyn : For years I used the B alignment and today I use the A alignment.
In numbers the B alignment gives you 0.04% on average RMS distortion lower than the A alignment but in the other side both kind of alignments are almost the same and its difference is that the B one overhang is 0.46 mm longer than the A alignment.
My common sense says that you or me in reality can't be absolute sure which is the alignment we are using or maybe we are in between or near A or near B.
In anyway the distortion numbers are so close and the change groove after groove is no higher than 0.001% that not even a bat can discern about.
Now, make an unbiased test with same tonearm, same cartridge and same everything: unmount thecartridge and then mount it as if will be the first time and make that excersice at least twice and you can be sure that both tests exist tiny very tiny differences.
Btw, unidin is not a standard alignment and ceratinly has not new equations alignmwent but only a manipulation of Löfgren parameters. Any one can has its own alignment if knows how manipulate those parameters. VPI tonearms have its own alignment. Through Analog Planet site M.Fremer with the help of his mentor ( Wally that pass away. ) made the comparison between all the standard alignments and the unidin one looking for the distortion levels where was clear that Löfgren was better. Unidin is only marketing and nothing more than that. As I said number manipulation and it's really easy to know that manipulation.
For me always is better to go with the Standard Löfgren A/B.
R.
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@mijostyn I've been using the SmarTracter for the last 18 months (prior I used the feickert protractor). As you know the SmarTracter has 5 different setting you can use to align a cartridge. When I first received it I went back and forth listening to all 5 settings and came away with Lofgren B as the best sounding "to my ears". It's nice to know I picked the one with the lowest distortion. 😎
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@sksos , my mistake. You really need to take a look at the Channel D Seta L 20. It is the quietest phono stage made, is battery powered, will do both voltage and current modes ( your MSL will really sing) and has a flat output just in case you want to try digital RIAA correction and recording your friend's rare records.
@drbond , I also use a SmarTracter. The alignment to use is Lofgren B. It has the lowest distortion across the record accept at the very inner groove area. Modern engineers stay away from that area and even in the old days most records were not cut that far in.
Aligning a cartridge on the Sota can be a bouncy situation, I can't imagine doing it on the Dohmann which is even more sensitive and the entire plinth is suspended whereas with the Sota the suspended sub chassis is internal. Is there a way to lock out the suspension on the Dohmann?
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Thanks for sharing! Was the Dohmann HQ in Australia, or Bulgaria (as I just read a Fremer article about Dohmann, Schroder, and another sound equipment manufacturer joining together to form a conglomerate in Bulgaria.)
The outskirts of Melbourne.
Yes, the alignment was tricky the first time, but I made all my mistakes on the Rega P8. I’ve only used the UNIDIN alignment on the SmarTractor, since I listen to entirely acoustic/classical/jazz music. Do you have any idea how the Baerwald or Loefgren alignment would affect the sound, if at all?
Well, I opined that IMO the spindle distance and overhang are about the least important things to get right, but the Azimuth, rake and Zenith are hard… and people get over anal to the Nth degree on the easy stuff and can miss the important stuff… and he seemed to concur.
(We talked at length and I’ll be getting a WAM Zenith disc when the TT rebuild is complete.)
Anyhow… for instance with the CB-9, I plug in the 222mm spindle difference I get baerwald having the Schroder recommended overhang.
I am visually within 0.2mm of 222.
The I go into the calculator and use Loefgren and get a number a couple of mm different.
On a lark put in a spindle distance a mm error, and got an overhang a bit different. 1mm error in spindle distance is heaps.
So we can get anal on that to save a small fraction of a degree of error and then can miss say a cartridge Zenith error of a handful of degrees.
And SRA and Azimuth are also difficult, but less so for Azimuth.
This is worth a watch IMO:
My opinion is that I would not stress at all about it, but Baerwald is a longer effective arm, and I believe should be better overall… to an anal fraction of a degree… but I have not done the maths and graphs yet.
How does the TT sound?
I missed which arm and cart you put on it?
And @drbond I am a bit envious… but my old table is a thing of joy.
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@holmz
Thanks for sharing! Was the Dohmann HQ in Australia, or Bulgaria (as I just read a Fremer article about Dohmann, Schroder, and another sound equipment manufacturer joining together to form a conglomerate in Bulgaria.)
Yes, the alignment was tricky the first time, but I made all my mistakes on the Rega P8. I’ve only used the UNIDIN alignment on the SmarTractor, since I listen to entirely acoustic/classical/jazz music. Do you have any idea how the Baerwald or Loefgren alignment would affect the sound, if at all?
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Helix is one of the best I’ve ever heard.
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I'm not the most knowledgeable about different turntables, so my experience is rather limited. I've only had a Rega P3, Rega P8, and then made a (very large) jump to the Dohmann Helix One Mk2. The audiophile friend who's been in vinyl for decades was very impressed with the Dohmann. Coming from the Rega P8, it's a world of difference: a vast improvement in every aspect: detail and clarity most obviously improved to my ears
@drbond I had the wisdom, luck, or just curiousity to stop by Dohmann HQ on Sat Feb 18th. (Mostly to see about a Schroder brass HS weight)
It was a wonderful couple of hours, and it is hard to find any fault with the TT as it was setup, and the music that was there was about a 50% overlap with what I have, so it was a good sign.
There are many “double negative” Australian sayings, and they can be subtlety different than without double negatives… but as the saying goes, “Dohmann makes it hard to not like him.”
I have a good cart, arm, phono stage and the SOTA rebuild is proceeding. But that Helix is really something else again.
I don’t think you will have much left to blame things on… but cartridge set up is an easy way to find a failure even with everything being good on its own.
well done!
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Sorry @rauliruegas I usually place at the end of a post "Dealer disclaimer" especially when I talk about any equipment. I've been a member here since 2006 and as you can see I don't post much, up to 114 posts now. As for Kondo gear, initially it wowed me then I found it just too euphoric and "earthy" sounding. Yes I wanted a more accurate sound which I think you still can achive with some tubes.
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@sksos : " a sound that keeps me engaged and enjoying the music and brings the musicians into my space, or better yet me into their space. "
How what I posted could goes against your statement or against true fidelity? or against accuracy that you mentioned??
About SUT I owned/own over 15 different units including Kondo and I listen Kondo electronics several times in my system.
Certainly you can’t know what is true fidelity when your all tube phono stage is inherently just colored, yes is what you like and this is not under questioning.
Btw, I was not know that you are an audio dealer, it’s ok. No problem with.
R.
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@rauliruegas what is "true fidelity"? Do you know? Do I know? No. (My wife tells me I should know after being married for 46 years!) It was Kondo-san himself that taught me things about analog and it's sound and it was he who showed me the light regarding SUT's. Is it accurate? I'm not looking for accuracy but for a sound that keeps me engaged and enjoying the music and brings the musicians into my space, or better yet me into their space. I can appreciate your view and others views but for me I've been at this for a loooooong time and know what I like.
Enjoy your journey 😎
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Dear @sksos : M.Lavigne made a suddenly ( at least for me that I followed him by years. ) turn around to tubes and SUT both no matters what goes against true fidelity ( best SUT is not SUT at all. ) to reproduce adding and losting the less to what the cartridge signal pick-up from the LP groove modulations. Tubes are the worst alternative for a phono stage. Only an opinion and I listen in my system to tubes for at least 10 years.
Could be important that you consider seriously to the SimAudio Moon 810LP fully diferential and dual mono SS phono stage that believe me not only can competes with any tube unit but outperform it easily and can competes bis a bis against any other SS top phono stage as CH or Boulder or Dartzeel or almost any one.
Here a TAS review where was surrounded by top speaker/electronics/analog:
Simaudio Moon 810LP Phono Preamplifier - The Absolute Sound
Think on it about. Could be very appreciated by your Bricasti amplifier and a MUSIC enjoyment for you as never before.
R.
810LP Phono Preamp | Best Turntable Preamplifier | MOON - Simaudio
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@sksos
Yes, I only looked at the MC cartridge input, since I didn't want to fiddle with a SUT presently, although that could change in the future. I couldn't be happier with the CH Precision P1 / X1. I'm sure that the CS Port phono stage is excellent as well, though. I personally only have extensive relevant experience with the CH Precision P1/X1 and the Manley Steelhead, both of which are very good, so I can't comment on the qualities of the CS Port. Enjoy!
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@drbond for a man that says he knows little about turntables - I commend your choice in the Dohmann Helix.
I've heard three vinyl front ends that have stuck with me. One had the FM Acoustics phono stage in a live v recorded demo and nothing i've heard comes close to reproducing with such accuracy. The Constellation was wonderful too the kind of sound one can live with forever - powerful and fast but musical too. Finally one by a British Designer Graham Tricker called Tron - just very very musical. I've sadly never heard the Mares Connoisseur nor the Boulder. I use a Vendetta (voiced like Connoisseur) and a Whest. I envy your task in choosing - but like @rauliruegas - if it were my money? FM Acoustics - versatile and just plain brilliant.
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@lewm correct I'm contemplating the CS Port C3EQM phono. I have a Stabi R with the SAFIR arm and a MSL cartridge and couldn't be happier.
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Mike, I assume Skos is referring to and thinking of buying the CS Port phono stage, not the TT. But I could be wrong.
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@sksos , For what it is worth, I think you are much better of with @drbond 's choice The Dohmann Helix 1 or 2 with a Schroder, Reed or Kuzma arm. The motor, plater and tonearm are rigidly connected and placed on arguably the best isolation platform in existence. I am probably going to get one. I am waiting for them to develop the vacuum clamping. I will put a Schoder LT on it.
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By the way, I think Mike Lavigne owns the CS Port phono.
Yes, Mike does and really likes the CS Port phono. Have PM him via WBF and quickly discussed. It's one of the reasons I'm thinking of it, his opinion is highly thought of.
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As Mijostyn knows, I too use Sound Lab speakers, the 845PXs. The "backplate", in Sound Lab parlance, is where the bass and treble audio step up transformers and the passive crossover network that divides the frequencies that drive them, are housed. In my speakers, the components of the backplate are highly modified to save amplifier power and to provide for a high input impedance favorable to my Atma-sphere amplifiers. Funnily enough, the Atma-sphere amplifiers in this system are driven by Raul’s 3160 Phonolinepreamp, most of the time, also by my Atma-sphere MP1, and sometimes by my BMC MCCI ULN SE. (The aforementioned Steelhead drives a Beveridge 2SW-based system in my basement.)
By the way, I think Mike Lavigne owns the CS Port phono.
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@drbond stated on 4/29/2022 11:39 "Thanks for the recommendations, but both the CS Port C2 EQM 2 and the EMT 128 (both of which are but phono stages, and look like high quahily products) only have one input. With my two tonearms, I would prefer a phono stage with two inputs".
Yes this thread hasn't seen replies for over 2 months but I was searching for info on the CS Port phono eq C2EQM2 b/c thinking of getting one in to hear and saw drbond's comment regarding it. From the CS Port website it states: One MC and two MM cartridges are also supported, three inputs in total. Just thought I'd set the record straight.
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@drbond Well, that is a riot. My other cartridges are a Signature Platinum and an MC Diamond and I am not a huge Koetsu fan. The MSL is a lovely cartridge. The Atlas will be the last cartridge for a while. I need to replace my preamp processor and I am building a new set of subwoofers.
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@holmz
I'm not the most knowledgeable about different turntables, so my experience is rather limited. I've only had a Rega P3, Rega P8, and then made a (very large) jump to the Dohmann Helix One Mk2. The audiophile friend who's been in vinyl for decades was very impressed with the Dohmann. Coming from the Rega P8, it's a world of difference: a vast improvement in every aspect: detail and clarity most obviously improved to my ears.
@lewm
Yes, I'm probably not describing it very well, and we're probably talking about different aspects of the sound quality. The "bloom" that I hear from the tubes is what makes me feel most like the instruments are in the room with me (which is not a real experience at all, but rather a very engaging experience). The ambiance of feeling like I'm in the audience is not the same to me as the sense that the musicians are reverberating within my head, or "in the room" per se (the "bloom", as I'm describing it).
@mijostyn
:-) Yes, I think we have quite similar musical tastes: I am driving the Sound Lab 745 PX's with the Ypsilon Hyperions mostly, although I'm also using Lamm M2.2's. Both do an excellent job to my ears, and both are hybrid amplifiers.
Let me know how you like the Lyra Atlas SL, when it arrives. I've personally moved on from the Koetsu Urushi Black, and replaced that cartridge with a My Sonic Lab Signature Platinum. I'm not sure which I enjoy more between the Lyra Atlas and the MSL. . . both are excellent MC cartridges.
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@lewm , in my mind, simple as it is, there is only one "right." Everything else is distortion. The "right" is what is in or on the recording. I admit that it is not always easy to determine exactly what "right" is. The most sensitive aspect of a recording is the image. I will go with whatever produces the most specific image.
@drbond , again my experience mirrors yours. I prefer solid state in general. I am not familiar with Ypsilon equipment. We use the same tonearm and I have a Lyra Atlas SL coming any day now (for 6 months). So, it seems we have very similar tastes. I have been waiting for Mark Dohmann to add vacuum clamping to the Helix. What are you driving the Soundlabs with?
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Drbond, I’d have to hear it myself to get a feel for what you’re describing. To begin with, for me bloom and the sense of ambiance are two different sensations. It makes sense to me that studio recordings where there is no audience and the recording engineer has greatest control really ought to give the listener the sense that musicians are in the room, or at least one is more likely to get that sensation under such circumstances. Club or live concert recordings ought to bring us to the venue, because the recording usually contains ambient cues. If my gear can achieve both illusions depending on the source material, I’m usually happy.
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@drbond how do you like the Dohmann?
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@lewm @mijostyn
I listened to the exact same recordings with the only difference being the Lamm L2 versus the Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE. Running the signal through the Lamm L2 would cause my system to sound like the Manley Steelhead is back in as the phono stage, and cause a larger than life "bloom", which made me feel like the performers are in the room with me. Running the signal of the same recording through the Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE related a sense of being in the audience of the recording studio / concert hall, which sounded more natural.
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Not meaning to be combative, but referring to the capacity of a fine tube phono stage to “bloom” or to make the listener feel the musicians are in the room as “distortion “ seems a bit unfair, not to say unmeasured and therefore maybe not distortion. For one thing, creating those two sensations can have much to do with special qualities of individual recordings and with room acoustics. For another, I like those sensations. Ironically, Raul’s SS phonolinepreamp can do both. It’s superb in my estimation.
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@drbond , my experience with current mode phono stages pretty much mirrors yours.
Whether or not you hear the venue or get the effect that the musician is in the room is more a function of the recording than anything else. What I find the distortion inherent in many tube designs does is blur the image, Outlines become less distinct. Remember, we have essentially the same speakers.
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So, it's been about 6 months since I bought the CH Precision P1/X1, and it has been a very good experience. I haven't listened to any digital since I've had the P1/X1 installed, which is a good sign.
The main distinction with this phono stage is that it does make me feel like I am at the venue, as opposed to making me feel like the performers are in the room with me. I attribute the latter experience, of feeling like performers are in the room, to the "bloom" that comes with the tube sound. I'll have to admit that occasionally, I do miss that "bloom" distortion, but I do get that experience if I switch out my Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE pre-amplifier with the Lamm L2 pre-amplifier, which gives more of a tube sound. But one day of the "bloom" is enough for me, and then I begin to tire of it, and want the natural sound of the Ypsilon / CH Precision P1 combination. Overall, I the phono stage produces significant clarity and detail, without becoming sterile.
An audiophile friend, who's been in vinyl for decades (and mostly enjoyed a SET set-up) visited recently and listened to the P1/X1. He was impressed so much that he bought one for himself. While I never tried the voltage mode on this phono stage, he did try it. He said that the background sound / noise was worse via the voltage mode, as compared to the current mode. He also said that the voltage mode had less defined imaging.
Thanks to everyone who recommended looking into these current mode phono stages.
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Take a view on Tube Kronos Phono preamp
2 inputs, RIAA options full Tube Operation.
You can see it in my system, sounds superb.
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Dear @drbond : " In a couple of months..." every one has his own " strategy " to make tests/comparisons.
For me 2+ months is non adequated because in that time our ears/brain will be accustom to that specific sound overall " colorations ". Rigth now you like what you listen to and I think is the rigth time to start to make the voltage vs current comparisons, doing it before our brain been a little or to much sticky with the current mode. Could be that maybe you will like more one of your cartridges with the current mode and the other with the voltage mode. Again, I think is the rigth time.
But as I said each one decides about.
R.
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@dover
Thanks for sharing your insight into the potential weaknesses of the analog software.
I think the record that CH Precision offers for gain testing is essentially a small version of the Analog Magik software. The Analog Magik software works by taking the output cables from the phono stage, and plugging that into a USB Phono Plus phono pre-amp circuit (which itself could have some limitations), which is connected to a computer running the Analog Magik software, while the Analog Magik test LP's are playing.
In a couple of months, once my ears are used to the sound from the current settings on the CH Precision P1, I'll experiment with the voltage settings.
Thanks again.
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Interesting - I don't profess to know much about AnalogMagik, but a cursory look raises a few issues that I think could be cause for concern -
AudioMagik believes the optimal gain level is the one which yields the highest Signal to Noise ratio."
This is not right. You need to look at gain in the context of the system.
There are 2 aspects to consider.
Cartridge interface to phono
It is quite easy when matching low output mc cartridges with high gain phono stages, to overload the phono, particularly at ultrasonic frequencies - leading to sound quality issues that are more about gain matching than cartridge set up.
Even if the overloading is at ultrasonic frequencies supposedly outside the "audible range", artefacts of ultrasonic overload may impact back down in the audible range.
Therefore you only want enough gain in the phono to obtain the optimum balance between low noise floor, decent headroom, natural dynamics and enough output to drive the next stage at its optimal level. Remember the line stage optimum level is also dependent on the sensitivity and load characteristics of the succeeding stage - in this case power amp.
Phono to Line Stage
Too much gain into the next stage could lead to overload. So for example, you might have a high SNR from a phono using high gain, but at a cost.
Ordinarily it should be hard to overload a competent line stage - however if a phono is outputting distortion at ultra high frequency into an active line stage with poor overload margins at those frequencies - hey presto you have a problem - and the optimum in this case may be lower gain, giving up SNR, may be of benefit.
Similarly if driving a passive line stage, insufficient gain may cause other issues down the chain - loss of dynamics for example, poor signal to noise ratio into the power amp.
In my view you should use Analogmagik as a guide, for better understanding of whats going on, but ultimately should select gain by ear, balancing low noise versus adequately driving each succeeding stage without overload nor insufficient load.
In @drbond s case, experimenting with the CH Precision gain in tandem with his line stage may yield an optimum result above or below the CH recommended gain.
Trust your ears - if I'm looking to find optimum gain settings between components I am looking for the most natural presentation - not dull, not hyped.
Same with their loading suggestions -
AM has you play pink noise (noise with equal energy per octave) and displays the frequency response, both raw and smoothed, between 20Hz and 24kHz. In the graph, muddy will be indicated by elevated bass or low mid frequencies. Bright will display as elevated treble. AM's 'just right' loading is when the smoothed frequency response graph is flattest.
Again there is an assumption that flat frequency response is optimal.
It may not be. There may be downsides of trying to flatten the frequency response, the cure may be worse than the remedy.
Analogmagik may be a useful tool to understanding your system and system set up for loading, gain etc, but ultimately you have to trust your ears. I don't see it as gospel, more an analysis tool to help understand your system.
In this case @drbond has 2 arms and cartridges - so he can compare the behaviour of changing the parameters of each cartridge/phono set up - this is useful.
I would encourage him to try out the voltage gain option as well at some stage to get an understanding if voltage vs current mode for each of his cartridges. This will vary dependent on cartridge of course and can't be used for a generalised conclusion.
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Dear @drbond : " Would I hear anything adversely by having the gain so high.."
The best for you is to ask directly to AnalogMagik.
In the other side that " oddly " VTA with the Atlas is something that you have to ask for too. I don't know if that could means that you have to " play " a little with the cartridge VTA till be inside that 5% range limit even that you set up the Atlas VTA where you like it the more.
R.
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So here's some follow up on the CH Precision P1 (run in current mode) gain settings from the Analog Magik software: at 15db gain, the SNR = 21db; at 20db gain, the SNR = 23db; at 25db gain, the SNR = 20.5db.
At 20db gain, sometimes the CLIP SIGNAL light would flicker green, but was mostly red. Apparently, Analog Magik favors a 20db gain. . . I'll have to play some more with this.
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@rauliruegas
So, I set up the AnalogMagik software today, and it did help me adjust the azimuth. I was able to get the Lyra Atlas cartridge to have a -28.4 cross talk in both L and R channels. Oddly, the VTA didn't work with the Lyra Atlas, as it read 6-8%, and the software says that if the reading is above 5%, it might not work for that cartridge. (The Koetsu was down around 2%). Another oddity was the gain selector on the AnalogMagik software: it selected 15db also, but that's only because the CLIP SIGNAL light went from green to red on the USB Phono Plus computer interface machine when I selected 20db. . . I suppose that's the same reason that the CH P1 software also stopped at 15db. Would I hear anything adversely by having the gain so high that the clip signal light turns red on that computer interface machine?
Thanks.
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Dear @drbond : About speaker SPLs what I tryed to say is that in my case when I tests a new audio item in my system I try always that the measured SPLs coming from the speakers at seat position been evenly ( as I can. ) the SPLs during the listening test sessions before and after the test of new audio item. It’s healthy to do it that way because our ears are very sensitive to minuscle SPL changes and those little SPL changes could makes that the new item like it or dislike it more than the " old " one.
In the other side the nalizer inside the CH takes the new cartridge impedance parameter and after modeling internally tells you due to the overall characteristics of the CH quality design/performance which gain level is the better with that cartridge and obviously that does not takes in count if you like it or not. It’s a test/fact/objective.
Yes, the AnalogMagik tool can help you.
R.
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@rauliruegas
Yes, while playing the test record the P1 gain wizard started at 0db, while playing the test LP, then jumped to 5db, then 10db, then 15db, and stopped at 15db. It didn’t proceed to test any higher gain setting. I’m still listening at 25db, but perhaps I need to revisit, and listen the 15db gain more critically. At 25db, I think it sounds great, but I really should do a better job researching the differences, and I will over the next 3-6 months, but right now I’m just enjoying listening my LP’s with new ears.
With the increased gain settings, of course I can listen with a higher speaker SPL, but I try to keep it within realistic sound levels, but being closer to the front, the sound is louder than sitting in the middle of the concert hall. With the gain set at 0, I had the volume on the pre-amplifier on maximum, but with the gain set at 25, I have the volume set right in the middle, but the SPL is louder with the increased gain, and decreased volume setting on the pre-, but possibly only up to 70 db SPL instead of 55-60 db SPL. I don't know if they're related, but it is my understanding that the gain was selected based on the internal resistance in the MC cartridge, and not necessarily based on the SNR.
There was minimal brightness with the other tonearm, but I lowered that one about 0.5mm, and there is no brightness with either tonearm presently. (Eventually, I ended up lowering the first tonearm by about 3mm, after first lowering it about 1mm.) I’ve also been playing with the azimuth a bit, and I do have the AnalogMagik software that I can plug in, but right now I’m just using my ears.
Thanks.
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@drbond : I hope/could understand that the listening SPL from the speakers stays the same with or with out the changes you did it. Is it that way?
R.
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Dear @drbond : You said that your manual 25db gain set up like you the more that what was the CH gain choosed for that cartridge .
However the CH calculated gain has an advantage:
" The P1 comes with a test LP designed to work with the P1's internal distortion analyzer. With the test LP playing, the P1 Gain Wizard will read the test signal and automatically choose a gain level which yields the lowest signal to noise ratio. "
You posted if 15db is good 25db must be better and maybe is not that way.
In the other side are you listen it with the standard inverse RIAA eq. or with the Neumann pole?
Btw, that brigthness that you did not like it sounded with both cartridges you own?
R.
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Dear @drbond : Well time to enjoy MUSIC, good ! ! !
Only to understand that current mode PS designs has no real advantage with any LOMC cartridge. This post came from a person with high knowledge technical levels and through his post puts true ligth on that current vs voltage kind of designs, read carefully especialyy its conclusion:
R.
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Well, there’s not much like a new turntable and phono stage to leave room for adjustments: a member suggested that I adjust the VTA because of the brightness I was hearing, so I lowered the tonearm about 0.75 mm, and the brightness that I previously heard is gone. I am now running full gain (25db) through the current mode MC input, and it sounds great, very sonorous, and without that brightness. The “gain wizard” software still suggests to run at 15db gain, based on the test record included with the phono stage, but I guess I figure that if 15db is good, 25db must be better!
With the gain increased, it sounds like I moved from the mid-back of the auditorium to the front.
Thanks for everyone’s recommendations!
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Congrats on your purchase!!
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The Manley Steelhead can be vastly upgraded by replacing the output coupling capacitors. I am certainly not about to claim that doing so would result in it sounding as good as the CH1, but it is a worthwhile alteration.
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So, I made a purchase of a phono stage, and I bought the CH Precision P1 phono stage with X1 power supply. Thanks to everyone for their contribution to this thread, and to my education. I especially appreciate the recommendations of those who brought my attention to this new technology in current-based phono stages. I wouldn't have had any idea about this new type of phono stage without several of your contributions.
After a week or listening, I am very impressed with the sound quality of the device, and it sounds worlds better than the Manley Steelhead, which was and is a very good phono stage.
I really do like the idea of the current-based operation of a phono stage, and I was always somewhat philosophically disturbed by how variable loading could affect the sound of LP's and cartridges, but I wasn't aware of any other options. With the CH Precision, the gain is the only variable, and it comes with a record and a "gain wizard" software that selects the best gain for each cartridge played, based on certain parameters. Additionally, if I wanted to use an SUT with my MC, or use an MM, I could use the MM/MC input on the device, and there are supposedly 500 different loadings possible in the CH Precision P1, all the way from 20 ohms to 100k ohms, and a "loading wizard" software with a record can help select the best loading for the cartridge also.
As for the sound, it's quite amazing: the musicality is still very present, but the clarity and detail are present on a much greater scale. It is most noticeable with larger, orchestral pieces, where the sound stage and separation of the instruments is much greater. There's not as significant an improvement with solo pieces: while the sound quality is definitely improved, and clearer; the slight distortion that the Manley Steelhead created was very musically pleasing with solo instruments.
If I could criticize the unit, I would say that it is almost too precise, clear, and detailed, which does remove some bit of the musicality of the performance (when operating the device at what the "gain wizard" software considers to be the "optimal" gain). Another difference that I notice is that the presentation is such that instead of making you feel like the performers are in my home, it makes me feel like I am at the performance, or recording studio.
Interestingly, the "gain wizard" software on the P1 selected the "optimal" gain to be +15 db for both the Lyra and Koetsu cartridges into the MC current input. (The selected gain is based on the internal resistance of the MC cartridge.) At this gain, the music is very detailed, precise, accurate, but I perceive it to be slightly bright. In my opinion, this accuracy and brightness is due to the gain chosen by the "gain wizard". When I select the gain myself, based upon what I appreciate as natural music, I choose a gain of 0 db. At 0 db gain, the P1 is not only still very detailed and accurate, but also thoroughly musical. Listening to any performance, I get the impression that I am at the performance, and everything sounds as real as it would, without any of the larger than life "bloom" that I get from the Manley Steelhead. However, I must admit, I do sometimes enjoy that large "bloom," while recognizing that it is some degree of distortion. This perceived perfect sonic balance at 0 db gain may also be due to using my Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE in passive mode at maximum volume, which is approximately 0 db attenuation. So, my current assessment is: 0 db gain with 0 db attenuation = ideal, realistic sound quality.
Playing the P1 unit by itself lends a lean, clean sound, and it sounds excellent, but adding the X1 power supply does add a robustness to the sound.
In the coming months, I plan on connecting the MC cartridges to the voltage-based MM/MC input, and playing with the loading wizard, and comparing the sonic differences, as compared to the current-based MC input.
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New Nagra HD Phono Preamplifier Nagra writes: "Year after year we are pursuing our quest of excellence by developing ambitious product to complement our lines. Following the Classic PHONO and largely developed in parallel, the Nagra HD PHONO will release in September 2022. We are extremely happy to show it for the very first time. It encompasses Nagra HD Line DNA with a separate vibration controlled housing on suspensions. It is a double-mono, tube based preamplifier with 70 dB of gain and wide range of fine settings to extract the most of your cartridge."
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@drbond : "strongly favor the FM223, but recognized that it didn’t have enough gain for many systems. ""
Well, those gentlemans ignore that FMA can give you the 223 with the gain you can need it.
R.
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@dover
Well, I finally had some time to read that review (from the links that you posted previously) of various high end phono stages, written in Chinese.
I think much must’ve been lost in translation, and after reading his review of the Manley Steelhead, I’m not sure how much credence I would give to this reviewer: he specifically says that the Manley is great for large orchestral pieces, and mediocre for piano and chamber music. My experience has been the exact opposite?! Listening to piano music through the Manley Steelhead, I have a hard time not believing that the piano is in the room with me, and a concert pianist, who has listened to my system, agrees! Chamber music is equally exceptional with the combination of the Manley Steelhead and the Dohmann Helix One Mk2. (Perhaps the difference can be attributed to the NOS tubes that I'm using, as opposed to the stock tubes included in the Steelhead, or perhaps to system synergies.)
I found the reviewer’s conclusion by comparing the different phono stages to different types of idealized Chinese women quite difficult to relate to, being an American myself, but it was nonetheless intriguing.
The reviewer seemed to strongly favor the FM223, but recognized that it didn’t have enough gain for many systems. He also preferred the Trinity Phono Stage, and the Audio Note M3, although his descriptions of various advantages and disadvantages of the various phono stages was poorly worded in translation.
Nevertheless, thanks for sharing that review!
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Rather than dwelling too much on Speciication, try to listen to them.
Another suggestion would be:
CS-Port
Allnic
Aries Cerat
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