@holmz
I'm not the most knowledgeable about different turntables, so my experience is rather limited. I've only had a Rega P3, Rega P8, and then made a (very large) jump to the Dohmann Helix One Mk2. The audiophile friend who's been in vinyl for decades was very impressed with the Dohmann. Coming from the Rega P8, it's a world of difference: a vast improvement in every aspect: detail and clarity most obviously improved to my ears.
@lewm
Yes, I'm probably not describing it very well, and we're probably talking about different aspects of the sound quality. The "bloom" that I hear from the tubes is what makes me feel most like the instruments are in the room with me (which is not a real experience at all, but rather a very engaging experience). The ambiance of feeling like I'm in the audience is not the same to me as the sense that the musicians are reverberating within my head, or "in the room" per se (the "bloom", as I'm describing it).
@mijostyn
:-) Yes, I think we have quite similar musical tastes: I am driving the Sound Lab 745 PX's with the Ypsilon Hyperions mostly, although I'm also using Lamm M2.2's. Both do an excellent job to my ears, and both are hybrid amplifiers.
Let me know how you like the Lyra Atlas SL, when it arrives. I've personally moved on from the Koetsu Urushi Black, and replaced that cartridge with a My Sonic Lab Signature Platinum. I'm not sure which I enjoy more between the Lyra Atlas and the MSL. . . both are excellent MC cartridges.
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@drbond Well, that is a riot. My other cartridges are a Signature Platinum and an MC Diamond and I am not a huge Koetsu fan. The MSL is a lovely cartridge. The Atlas will be the last cartridge for a while. I need to replace my preamp processor and I am building a new set of subwoofers.
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@drbond stated on 4/29/2022 11:39 "Thanks for the recommendations, but both the CS Port C2 EQM 2 and the EMT 128 (both of which are but phono stages, and look like high quahily products) only have one input. With my two tonearms, I would prefer a phono stage with two inputs".
Yes this thread hasn't seen replies for over 2 months but I was searching for info on the CS Port phono eq C2EQM2 b/c thinking of getting one in to hear and saw drbond's comment regarding it. From the CS Port website it states: One MC and two MM cartridges are also supported, three inputs in total. Just thought I'd set the record straight.
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As Mijostyn knows, I too use Sound Lab speakers, the 845PXs. The "backplate", in Sound Lab parlance, is where the bass and treble audio step up transformers and the passive crossover network that divides the frequencies that drive them, are housed. In my speakers, the components of the backplate are highly modified to save amplifier power and to provide for a high input impedance favorable to my Atma-sphere amplifiers. Funnily enough, the Atma-sphere amplifiers in this system are driven by Raul’s 3160 Phonolinepreamp, most of the time, also by my Atma-sphere MP1, and sometimes by my BMC MCCI ULN SE. (The aforementioned Steelhead drives a Beveridge 2SW-based system in my basement.)
By the way, I think Mike Lavigne owns the CS Port phono.
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By the way, I think Mike Lavigne owns the CS Port phono.
Yes, Mike does and really likes the CS Port phono. Have PM him via WBF and quickly discussed. It's one of the reasons I'm thinking of it, his opinion is highly thought of.
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@sksos , For what it is worth, I think you are much better of with @drbond 's choice The Dohmann Helix 1 or 2 with a Schroder, Reed or Kuzma arm. The motor, plater and tonearm are rigidly connected and placed on arguably the best isolation platform in existence. I am probably going to get one. I am waiting for them to develop the vacuum clamping. I will put a Schoder LT on it.
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Mike, I assume Skos is referring to and thinking of buying the CS Port phono stage, not the TT. But I could be wrong.
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@lewm correct I'm contemplating the CS Port C3EQM phono. I have a Stabi R with the SAFIR arm and a MSL cartridge and couldn't be happier.
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@drbond for a man that says he knows little about turntables - I commend your choice in the Dohmann Helix.
I've heard three vinyl front ends that have stuck with me. One had the FM Acoustics phono stage in a live v recorded demo and nothing i've heard comes close to reproducing with such accuracy. The Constellation was wonderful too the kind of sound one can live with forever - powerful and fast but musical too. Finally one by a British Designer Graham Tricker called Tron - just very very musical. I've sadly never heard the Mares Connoisseur nor the Boulder. I use a Vendetta (voiced like Connoisseur) and a Whest. I envy your task in choosing - but like @rauliruegas - if it were my money? FM Acoustics - versatile and just plain brilliant.
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@sksos
Yes, I only looked at the MC cartridge input, since I didn't want to fiddle with a SUT presently, although that could change in the future. I couldn't be happier with the CH Precision P1 / X1. I'm sure that the CS Port phono stage is excellent as well, though. I personally only have extensive relevant experience with the CH Precision P1/X1 and the Manley Steelhead, both of which are very good, so I can't comment on the qualities of the CS Port. Enjoy!
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Dear @sksos : M.Lavigne made a suddenly ( at least for me that I followed him by years. ) turn around to tubes and SUT both no matters what goes against true fidelity ( best SUT is not SUT at all. ) to reproduce adding and losting the less to what the cartridge signal pick-up from the LP groove modulations. Tubes are the worst alternative for a phono stage. Only an opinion and I listen in my system to tubes for at least 10 years.
Could be important that you consider seriously to the SimAudio Moon 810LP fully diferential and dual mono SS phono stage that believe me not only can competes with any tube unit but outperform it easily and can competes bis a bis against any other SS top phono stage as CH or Boulder or Dartzeel or almost any one.
Here a TAS review where was surrounded by top speaker/electronics/analog:
Simaudio Moon 810LP Phono Preamplifier - The Absolute Sound
Think on it about. Could be very appreciated by your Bricasti amplifier and a MUSIC enjoyment for you as never before.
R.
810LP Phono Preamp | Best Turntable Preamplifier | MOON - Simaudio
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@rauliruegas what is "true fidelity"? Do you know? Do I know? No. (My wife tells me I should know after being married for 46 years!) It was Kondo-san himself that taught me things about analog and it's sound and it was he who showed me the light regarding SUT's. Is it accurate? I'm not looking for accuracy but for a sound that keeps me engaged and enjoying the music and brings the musicians into my space, or better yet me into their space. I can appreciate your view and others views but for me I've been at this for a loooooong time and know what I like.
Enjoy your journey 😎
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@sksos : " a sound that keeps me engaged and enjoying the music and brings the musicians into my space, or better yet me into their space. "
How what I posted could goes against your statement or against true fidelity? or against accuracy that you mentioned??
About SUT I owned/own over 15 different units including Kondo and I listen Kondo electronics several times in my system.
Certainly you can’t know what is true fidelity when your all tube phono stage is inherently just colored, yes is what you like and this is not under questioning.
Btw, I was not know that you are an audio dealer, it’s ok. No problem with.
R.
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Sorry @rauliruegas I usually place at the end of a post "Dealer disclaimer" especially when I talk about any equipment. I've been a member here since 2006 and as you can see I don't post much, up to 114 posts now. As for Kondo gear, initially it wowed me then I found it just too euphoric and "earthy" sounding. Yes I wanted a more accurate sound which I think you still can achive with some tubes.
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I'm not the most knowledgeable about different turntables, so my experience is rather limited. I've only had a Rega P3, Rega P8, and then made a (very large) jump to the Dohmann Helix One Mk2. The audiophile friend who's been in vinyl for decades was very impressed with the Dohmann. Coming from the Rega P8, it's a world of difference: a vast improvement in every aspect: detail and clarity most obviously improved to my ears
@drbond I had the wisdom, luck, or just curiousity to stop by Dohmann HQ on Sat Feb 18th. (Mostly to see about a Schroder brass HS weight)
It was a wonderful couple of hours, and it is hard to find any fault with the TT as it was setup, and the music that was there was about a 50% overlap with what I have, so it was a good sign.
There are many “double negative” Australian sayings, and they can be subtlety different than without double negatives… but as the saying goes, “Dohmann makes it hard to not like him.”
I have a good cart, arm, phono stage and the SOTA rebuild is proceeding. But that Helix is really something else again.
I don’t think you will have much left to blame things on… but cartridge set up is an easy way to find a failure even with everything being good on its own.
well done!
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Helix is one of the best I’ve ever heard.
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@holmz
Thanks for sharing! Was the Dohmann HQ in Australia, or Bulgaria (as I just read a Fremer article about Dohmann, Schroder, and another sound equipment manufacturer joining together to form a conglomerate in Bulgaria.)
Yes, the alignment was tricky the first time, but I made all my mistakes on the Rega P8. I’ve only used the UNIDIN alignment on the SmarTractor, since I listen to entirely acoustic/classical/jazz music. Do you have any idea how the Baerwald or Loefgren alignment would affect the sound, if at all?
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Thanks for sharing! Was the Dohmann HQ in Australia, or Bulgaria (as I just read a Fremer article about Dohmann, Schroder, and another sound equipment manufacturer joining together to form a conglomerate in Bulgaria.)
The outskirts of Melbourne.
Yes, the alignment was tricky the first time, but I made all my mistakes on the Rega P8. I’ve only used the UNIDIN alignment on the SmarTractor, since I listen to entirely acoustic/classical/jazz music. Do you have any idea how the Baerwald or Loefgren alignment would affect the sound, if at all?
Well, I opined that IMO the spindle distance and overhang are about the least important things to get right, but the Azimuth, rake and Zenith are hard… and people get over anal to the Nth degree on the easy stuff and can miss the important stuff… and he seemed to concur.
(We talked at length and I’ll be getting a WAM Zenith disc when the TT rebuild is complete.)
Anyhow… for instance with the CB-9, I plug in the 222mm spindle difference I get baerwald having the Schroder recommended overhang.
I am visually within 0.2mm of 222.
The I go into the calculator and use Loefgren and get a number a couple of mm different.
On a lark put in a spindle distance a mm error, and got an overhang a bit different. 1mm error in spindle distance is heaps.
So we can get anal on that to save a small fraction of a degree of error and then can miss say a cartridge Zenith error of a handful of degrees.
And SRA and Azimuth are also difficult, but less so for Azimuth.
This is worth a watch IMO:
My opinion is that I would not stress at all about it, but Baerwald is a longer effective arm, and I believe should be better overall… to an anal fraction of a degree… but I have not done the maths and graphs yet.
How does the TT sound?
I missed which arm and cart you put on it?
And @drbond I am a bit envious… but my old table is a thing of joy.
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@sksos , my mistake. You really need to take a look at the Channel D Seta L 20. It is the quietest phono stage made, is battery powered, will do both voltage and current modes ( your MSL will really sing) and has a flat output just in case you want to try digital RIAA correction and recording your friend's rare records.
@drbond , I also use a SmarTracter. The alignment to use is Lofgren B. It has the lowest distortion across the record accept at the very inner groove area. Modern engineers stay away from that area and even in the old days most records were not cut that far in.
Aligning a cartridge on the Sota can be a bouncy situation, I can't imagine doing it on the Dohmann which is even more sensitive and the entire plinth is suspended whereas with the Sota the suspended sub chassis is internal. Is there a way to lock out the suspension on the Dohmann?
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@mijostyn I've been using the SmarTracter for the last 18 months (prior I used the feickert protractor). As you know the SmarTracter has 5 different setting you can use to align a cartridge. When I first received it I went back and forth listening to all 5 settings and came away with Lofgren B as the best sounding "to my ears". It's nice to know I picked the one with the lowest distortion. 😎
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Dear @mijostyn : For years I used the B alignment and today I use the A alignment.
In numbers the B alignment gives you 0.04% on average RMS distortion lower than the A alignment but in the other side both kind of alignments are almost the same and its difference is that the B one overhang is 0.46 mm longer than the A alignment.
My common sense says that you or me in reality can't be absolute sure which is the alignment we are using or maybe we are in between or near A or near B.
In anyway the distortion numbers are so close and the change groove after groove is no higher than 0.001% that not even a bat can discern about.
Now, make an unbiased test with same tonearm, same cartridge and same everything: unmount thecartridge and then mount it as if will be the first time and make that excersice at least twice and you can be sure that both tests exist tiny very tiny differences.
Btw, unidin is not a standard alignment and ceratinly has not new equations alignmwent but only a manipulation of Löfgren parameters. Any one can has its own alignment if knows how manipulate those parameters. VPI tonearms have its own alignment. Through Analog Planet site M.Fremer with the help of his mentor ( Wally that pass away. ) made the comparison between all the standard alignments and the unidin one looking for the distortion levels where was clear that Löfgren was better. Unidin is only marketing and nothing more than that. As I said number manipulation and it's really easy to know that manipulation.
For me always is better to go with the Standard Löfgren A/B.
R.
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@holmz
Thanks for sharing your experience with Dohmann, and the details about cartridges that you discussed together! I’ll have to look into that WAM zenith disc, but I’ve been using the AnalogMagik software with decent results, and there is one aspect of that software, while not perfect, I’ve read can be used to help with zenith: apparently somehow the VTA measurement may actually do a better job at measuring zenith. The azimuth adjustment with the AnalogMagik software seems to do a good job, getting the crosstalk to match between channels, but there’s no way to meaure that SRA, so I’ll have to watch that video one weekend, and see if it’s worth it. Presently, I just use electonic level in my phone camera, and use that to verify that the tonearm is level (0 degrees) when playing.
I guess I should try the Baerwald alignment now that I’ve been listening to the UNIDIN for a few months. . .
I think that the turntable sounds phenomenal! One aspect that I think stands out is the balance of the presentation: the music is just balanced, so that the instruments are distinct, clear, and yet communicative and musical. There isn’t one range that overwhelms another.
I have two Schroder CB 11 tonearms installed, and I’ve used four cartridges thus far: the Lyra Atlas, Koetsu Urushi Black, My Sonic Lab Ultimate Platinum, and Lyra Etna Lambda SL. Presently, the latter two are installed.
If you’re ever visiting central Florida and want to listen, send me a message.
@mijostyn @sksos
Well, I’ll have to try the Loefgren B then!
Yes, there is a little post that you can lift to support the turntable while adjusting things. Once, I forgot to lower it after an adjustment, and left the post up, and the interference that I noted was remarkable, so that minus K really works!
@rauliruegas
Thanks for sharing your experience with the alignments!
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@rauliruegas , I think unidin is a joke. As whether or not I can hear the difference between Lofgren A or B, I seriously doubt it. But, it make me feel better that I am using the alignment with the lowest distortion across most of the record. When aligning a cartridge I take the utmost care to get it exactly right using all the tools at my disposal. You are right in that it is a very small world and it is not easy to get it exactly right given the number of pitfalls. I am a furniture maker. I make furniture with hand cut joints that have to fit exactly right, no gaps. It takes a very fastidious mind to do that, unfortunately a mind that sees errors in everything it observes.
@drbond , darn right the MinusK works. The benefits of good isolation are legion. I would never own a turntable that was not properly suspended. The outside world is loaded with noise and rumble, vibration of all sorts. The cartridge is a very sensitive vibration measuring device and it has no way of knowing where the vibration comes from. For fun get a seismograph app on your phone and put it on a granite countertop. Watch what happens when the wife walks around or the AC starts up. Open the garage door, sneeze. Anyone who thinks mass is enough isolation needs to perform this experiment. Lastly, put your seismograph phone on the Dohmann's platter, dead quiet. Darn right it works.
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Mark Döhmann runs Nirvana Sound in Australia, as well as having his own website. You could reach out to him and discuss. I’ve spoken to him about phono stage and cartridge recommendations in the past. He’s really responsive and a wealth of knowledge.
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Thanks for sharing your experience with Dohmann, and the details about cartridges that you discussed together! I’ll have to look into that WAM zenith disc, but I’ve been using the AnalogMagik software with decent results, and there is one aspect of that software, while not perfect, I’ve read can be used to help with zenith: apparently somehow the VTA measurement may actually do a better job at measuring zenith.
The WAM people mention their micro scope measurements and they a small USB microscope at the edge if the record to get SRA, and then shim the cartridge to get SRA to ~92 degrees.
Even with VTA at zero, many cart can have SRA be off by many degrees.
The azimuth adjustment with the AnalogMagik software seems to do a good job, getting the crosstalk to match between channels, but there’s no way to measure that SRA, so I’ll have to watch that video one weekend, and see if it’s worth it.
They have some 3-10 minute videos on the SRA and microscopes on the WAM site.
Presently, I just use electonic level in my phone camera, and use that to verify that the tonearm is level (0 degrees) when playing.
I guess I should try the Baerwald alignment now that I’ve been listening to the UNIDIN for a few months. . .
Others have said the Loefgren is better, so not having done the maths and graphs yet, I would not personally rush into it… But Frank (Schroder) designs it for Baerwald, and he also seems to know what he is doing.
Perhaps one late afternoon or evening you could try calling Nirvana Audio +61-3-… and ask Mark. He likes the Schroder arms and speaks highly of Frank, and would likely know.
As mentioned in the previous thread… personally I think that the Azimuth, Rake (SRA/VTA) and Zenith are more important… and Mark seemed to agree, and we quickly had moved onto the AudioMagic and talking about WAM and how they attack these versus how AudioMagic approached it. And he is involved with both, and carries both products.
@rauliruegas mentioned .04% RMS distortion, but I know what that is in angular space. I would be more worried about SRA and Zenith, and get a USB scope or the WAM measurement service and shims… to remove a potential “handful of degrees”, before stressing about smaller errors from Baerwald, Loefgren or UNIDEN.
I think that the turntable sounds phenomenal!
^This last statement^ makes me think that maybe it is good enough 😊
My setup was suffering some remaining sibilance on the hottest recordings, so I upgraded the arm and cart to try and ameliorate that. And the table rebuilt sort of snuck in there.
If it was not for sibilance on some hot pressings, I would have called it a day and just kept listening.
The Helix I heard at the HQ sounds like a similar set up to yours, but maybe a different cart. It sounded great…
- Was it better than my old TT with the old arm and old cart?
- “Yeah it was, but not by miles on good pressings.”
- Did it ever sound bad to the point where I was paying attention to tracking flaws or sibilance?
- Never (not like my old arm/cart sometimes can.)
Once one forgets that there is a system there, and the music just flows, then for me I have sort of “arrived”.
One aspect that I think stands out is the balance of the presentation: the music is just balanced, so that the instruments are distinct, clear, and yet communicative and musical. There isn’t one range that overwhelms another.
I have two Schroder CB 11 tonearms installed, and I’ve used four cartridges thus far: the Lyra Atlas, Koetsu Urushi Black, My Sonic Lab Ultimate Platinum, and Lyra Etna Lambda SL. Presently, the latter two are installed.
If you’re ever visiting central Florida and want to listen, send me a message.
I am unlikely to visit Florida, but if I do get to the area… then, in the double negative sense, “I wouldn’t say no.” 😉
Mark Döhmann runs Nirvana Sound in Australia, as well as having his own website. You could reach out to him and discuss. I’ve spoken to him about phono stage and cartridge recommendations in the past. He’s really responsive and a wealth of knowledge.
@mattn22 posted while i was typing… and said it more clearly. (Just call)
If I do not end up buying the Zenith disk, then the next time I am in Melbourne, I’ll likely stop by and drop off a “thank you” token. (Which is usually 750ml)
It is like a symbolic offering 😇
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I'm contemplating this battery phono from Japan CSPort
Mike Lavigne says it punches way above its price point
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Dear @holmz @drbond : In reality Schroder is using Löfgren alignment the A one.
Things are that years after Löfgren created his alignments A/B Baerwald alignment solution gives exactly the same value set up parameters however almost all audiophiles gave to Baerwald the credit for that alignment when was not Baerwald who first did it but Löfgren with his A solution.
R.
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Thanks @rauliruegas .
I was using this:
I see it says effective length: 239.3 (but I have a CB-9 not Bond’s CB-11)
And then and here:
I see it says effective length (IES/RIAA):
- Baerwald: 239.296
- Loefgren B: 239.749
- Stevenson: 237.418
- AP: 237.411
I thought that Loefgren was 2mm different, but it is Stevenson and AP that are.
And whether it is DIN, IEC/RIAA etc changes things.
Using DIN I see it as:
- Baerwald: 238.336
- Loefgren B: 238.804
- Stevenson: 236.488
- AP: 236.531
On IEC/RIAA, the 0.447 mm is about 20 thou, so it would be easy to end up Loefgren-B if one wanted Baerwald, but did not account for the drag pulling cantilever back and changing effective length to make it longer.
But going from IEC/RIAA to DIN, then everything jumps about a mm, so how important is all this stuff?
(One can basically get whatever one wants for effective length.)
Are there UNIDEN and other calculators?
And the calculator gives a graph with the Y-axis denoted as “distortion %age”… and the relationship between angular error a distortion becomes a bit obfuscated.
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@drbond , If you are having trouble getting a CB counterweight I would be happy to make one for you. I had the same problem and the stock weight was too heavy for the cartridge I was using at the time. I asked everyone for a counterweight. Even Frank Schroder could not supply one in a reasonable period of time. Thrax was totally unresponsive which really pissed Frank off. Anyway, I got a brass blank and turned it on my wood lathe. The only way you can tell it from a stock weight is the color is a little darker otherwise it is an exact replica. You just have to tell be what weight you want. I still have quite a lot of that brass blank left. I also could not get any extra cartridge mounting plates from Thrax. Frank graciously supplied those.
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@holmz : " so how important is all this stuff? "
Wel, today almost only through Löfgren alignments is the way to set up any cartridge along a pivoted tonearm. So it’s way important.
Now, Löfgren alignments exist and its internet calculators ( Vlinyl Engine has other good calculator alternative. ) and what’s important is tomake the cartridge/set up as accurate we can do it. Tiny errors with the set up makes a difference for not so good quality performance. Many times we even are not aware of those errors because through evaluations listen sessions we really don’t know what to look for.
The other parameters in a set-up as VTA/SRA/Zenith/AZ/VTF and the like are way imortant too to achieve the best quality performance levels we can
Even that we can take extreme care on the overall set-up you can be sure is not perfect as always exist trade-offs due the intrinsical relationship between all those parameters where ( example ) a change in VTF changes too other parameters that you have to modify and is an almost endless situation.
So, we have to try that our cartridge/tonearm be at its best each one of us can.
Btw and I already posted: unidin is not a new alignment that could needs a especial calculator with different equations that the Löfgren alignments, unidin is only a manipulation of the input parameters in the normal calculators but forgeret that as Stevenson A is inferior alignment to the LÖfgren ones. Don't worry about.
R.
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Thanks @rauliruegas
@mijostyn that was a gentlemanly offer to Bond.
I have some taps and access to a milling machine.
So let me understand this…
The alloy piece with the 1 hole in the middle and then the 2 holes for the cartridge. It is that that you make out of brass?
And then maybe 2+ of them and have the cart all set on each, and then when it gets swapped on you adjust nothing but VTF?
And one still sets the Azimuth, Zenith, and VTA?
Or is the cart shimmed (Wally style) so that it is just set the height (VTA) and VTF, which witching carts?
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@holmz , You are referring to what Frank Schroder calls cartridge mounting plates. They are made from one of three materials, a phenolic plastic for very compliant cartridges, Certal (an aluminum alloy) for medium compliance cartridges and brass for low compliance cartridges. Most cartridges will do fine on the Certal plate. Cartridges like the Koetsus and the MC Diamond require the brass plate.
The two outside holes are drilled at 1/2" centers, 2.5mm and the center hole is drilled and tapped for an M3 cap screw. I add a finger lift to all my plates. I find using a finger lift is a much more stable and reliable system of handling the tonearm. $12,000 cartridges are at risk. Frank does not add anything to his arms that might resonate including finger lifts and tonearm rests. I added a locking tonearm rest to my turntables plinth. My finger lifts are dampened with heat shrink tubing. They are made from non magnetic stainless steel wire. Drilling a hole in the side of the plates can be a daunting proposition but with a milling machine and the appropriate vise you should not have a problem. I use an interference fit with added high strength loctite. After the wire is mounted I bend it to shape.
This is what I do. All my cartridges are mounted on an appropriate plate. With the cartridge mounted and VTF set I put the stylus down on a rotating old record I do not mind scratching and measure the distance from the record to the top of the cartridge mounting plate. That distance is recorded on a 3 X 5 file card. I the use a Wally Referance tool to set both VTA and Azimuth using this measurement. There is a VTA scale on the tonearm's post. That number is also recorded. This puts the tonearm exactly coplanar with the record surface. I then set tonearm overhang for Lofgren B using a SmarTractor. I scribe a very fine line on the top surface of the mounting plate using the front surface of the arm as a guide. I can now return to the specs for that particular cartridge instantly with just a VTF gauge. Next is the hard part you need special equipment for. I verify both VTA and azimuth with a horizontal USB microscope similar to the WallyScope but much more stable. The WallyScope works but it is a bit of a PITA to use. Getting the stylus in center field and focused with a scope on a wobbly stage takes patience and a very delicate hand. Since I have neither, I constructed a horizontal microscope using the scope and camera of the WallyScope and the entire stage mechanism of an old medical microscope. It is an odd looking affair but much more stable and easier to use than the WallyScope. I have discussed this with J.R. who modified his stage a bit and it is better but still a far cry from a medical microscope. Fortunately, for these measurements you only need the low power objective which is much easier to deal with. The higher powers are needed to assess stylus wear and Zenith. Measuring angles is easy. Amscope has a program for microscopes. You can snap lines and the computer will calculate the angles for you. My standards are a VTA of 92 degrees +- 0.5 degrees and an azimuth of 90 degrees +- 0.5 degrees. All my current cartridges, the Lyra Atlas SL, MC Diamond and the MSL Signature Platinum are within spec so none of the adjustments needed modification and no shims are required. I do not measure Zenith. I do look at the styluses and take pictures of their initial shape for comparison purposes (easier to see wear), all of these cartridges are in spec by eye. At the price of these cartridges, if they were not in spec I would return them with pictures validating the problem. Actually, I would do that with a cartridge at any price. If a cartridge does not match up to it's published specifications it is by definition defective and should be replaced, no shims required.
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@mijostyn
Thanks for offering to make a brass counterweight for the CB tonearm. Is the counterweight simply a heavier cartridge mounting plate? How would I know if I need one. Presently, I just move the weight back and forth to adjust for VTF.
Thanks.
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@drbond : Always that we can is healthy that the counterweigth be as close the tonearm pivot/bearing as is posible because between other things improves the LP tracking.
R.
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You know you need a heavier CW if your present CW is insufficient in weight to achieve the desired VTF with your particular cartridge. If you’re at the end of rear travel of the CW in order to achieve VTF, then too you might consider a heavier CW so you can get it closer to the pivot and still achieve VTFlike Raul said.
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@lewm @rauliruegas
Thanks for clarifying: my counterweights are about equidistant from the pivot to the end of the tonearm, so I don't think anything extra is needed there. I think perhaps @mijostyn meant a brass cartridge mounting plate as opposed to brass counterweight. . . but maybe I'm wrong.
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Effective mass of the tonearm will be related to the mass of the CW X (distance from center of mass of CW to pivot)-squared. So if you want to minimize EM then you’re nbest off with a heavier CW placed closer to the pivot.
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@drbond, I can make mounting plates but I thought it was a counter weight you needed. The counter weight of the CB is in two pieces. The larger section unscrews from the top section through which the tonearms shaft passes. There are three different bottom sections. The arm comes with the intermediate section then there is a lighter one and a heavier one. Both @lewm and @rauliruegas are entirely correct. Depending on the mass of the cartridge and the VTF you want to choose the counterweight that gets you closest to the pivot. Personally, I think the arm should come with all three weights. Being able to make the weights allows me to tune the situation exactly. It is just basic machining and now that I have all the drills and taps required I can turn them out rapidly. Brass is easy to polish and get a mirror finish. The only problem is matching the color. Most people would never notice unless it was pointed out to them.
I assume you got the arm from Dohmann with the table. I would contact them first to see if they have additional cartridge mounting plates. Get at least one of each so you can be prepared for any eventuality.
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@mijostyn
As far as I can tell, the counter weights that I have work fine, but I haven’t tried anything else, so possibly brass counter weights would work better, or possibly worse. Is there a theoretical "best"? (I, personally, would have no idea as to whether the brass would be better or worse than the "stock" counter weight, or how to calculate such measurements.)
Thanks.
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@drbond , The stock counter weights are brass. It is a slightly different alloy from the stock I have access to. The counter weight should be within a centimeter of the bearing housing. If it is farther away you need a more massive weight.
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@mijostyn
Sounds interesting, but I would think that it would be simplest to use a lighter cartridge mouting plate and move the counter weight forward based on that as opposed to adding a heavier counter weight, which would then affect the effective mass of the tonearm in a more difficult way.
The Schroder CB manual says that the effective mass of the 11 inch tonearm is 17g. However, it doesn't say at which distance from the bearing housing that calculation is based upon, but I guess it doesn't matter that much. So, getting a heavier counter weight would allow me to place it closer to the pivot point, but then that would lower the effective mass of the tonearm, which would affect the interaction with the compliance of the cartidge. I don't see how a tonearm with a lower effective mass is neccessarily better than a tonearm with a slightly higher effective mass.
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Does the CB manual state whether the value of 17g is inclusive of the weight/mass of a "typical" cartridge and mounting hardware? If not, then add the weight of the cartridge plus hardware to the figure of 17g. I enjoy the math and science of this stuff, but in all honesty, on a personal level, just make it work and enjoy yourself. I don't know where you were going with your question about the brass, but for sure the material used for the CW makes no difference to SQ. The density of the metal might come into play where you are concerned about the size of the CW, in order so it fits as close as possible to the pivot. In that case, density is the parameter to go by, but at the same time, I say don't bother.
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@drbond, @lewm is correct. However the critical issue here is the resonance frequency of the tonearm-cartridge combination. A given cartridge is going to require an arm of a given effective mass. Since you can not adjust the cartridge you adjust the effective mass of the tonearm. In the case of the Schroder CB you can do this with different mass cartridge mounting plates and different mass screws or even headshell weights. You then position the counterweight to achieve the correct VTF. With the Schroder you have the choice of several counterweights. With a heavier counterweight you will move it closer to the pivot to achieve the same VTF. This also keeps the arm's effective mass exactly the same, but what it does do is decrease the arms moment of inertia which improves the arms ability to track warps and eccentricities.
Never set up an arm by specification. Set up and arm by testing. Equations are close to worthless when it comes to adjusting the resonance frequency of a cartridge-arm combination. There are too many variables involved. The specifications are ballpark only. You get a good test record and learn exactly what the resonance frequency is and make adjustments as required. I always shoot for 8 Hz and will settle for a little below but never higher. I also balance my own wheels.
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@mijostyn
Ah, so that makes more sense: you're not looking to necessarily change the effective mass of the tonearm, just its tracking ability, by decreasing its inertia.
What type of terst record do you use to measure the resonance frequency of your set up? (I don't think that the AnalogMagik does a good job at determining resonance frequencties, as every reading I've gotten from that portion of the software is way off the charts, in which case it says that the result is worthless.)
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@drbond , The Hi Fi News Analog Test Record. You will know when you hit the resonance frequency because the tone will warble. You might even see the tonearm shake.
Off topic a bit. I have been using ESLs since 1979. I now have 8 foot 645's. Roger West calls them 645-8s. ESLs HATE making bass. They will do it in a very lumpy fashion but it adds significant distortion to everything else. You get away with it only if you listen to less aggressive music at lower volumes, less than 80 dB. However Pink Floyd at 95 dB, forget it. You really need to get 4 subwoofers. It is a PITA and you have to make some other changes but I would NEVER use ESLs without them. It is like putting turbos in a 911.
Back on topic. You really need to look into the Channel D Seta L 20 Phono stage. It is an insane piece of gear. It has the lowest signal to noise ratio of any phono stage on the market, a lot lower. It will run any cartridge made in either Voltage, Current or MM mode. It will use digital RIAA correction and you can record anyones special records to a hard drive in 24/192. Everyone I have run an AB between the vinyl and it's recording can not tell the difference. I have The Seta L Plus the L20's little brother. Just because I am running very low impedance cartridges in current mode, it is the best sounding phono stage I have ever heard in my system. The L20 is 12 dB quieter!! That is just a stunning figure. I have trouble running the MC diamond running into noticeable noise at higher volumes. I hope to get myself an L20 in the future. Channel D will give you 80% of the price on trade in. The L20 is $50,000. My problem is getting it by the wife. I will have to give her a detached garage, new windows and a new paver driveway first. My Atma-Sphere MA2 amplifiers cost me a hot tub with landscaping. Being married is very expensive. Being alone is worse.
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From Channel d website:
Seta L20 mk2 MSRP $63,000.00 / Factory direct price $42,000.00
@mijostyn those new windows for the wife are now almost free! 😉
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@mijostyn
Just to clarify: the LP test record has a track with various frequencies, and when the frequency that is played causes the stylus warble, that's the resonance frequency? (and each change in frequency is annoted on the LP?)
I personally only listen to acoustic/classical/jazz music, and the bass provided by the SoundLabs is just perfectly realistic: just enough vibration from the tympani, double bass, etc. (I also prefer a naturally aspirated 911 to a turbo!)
Yes, as you know I purchased the CH Precision P1/X1. Just out of curiosity, it would be interesting to compare the CH Precision to the Channel D, but I don't know that it would be any better. Once you get your new driveway and Channel D, let me know, and we'll have to find a way to compare them!
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Mijo wrote, "A given cartridge is going to require an arm of a given effective mass." My only point was and is that the cartridge and the mounting hardware ARE part of the effective mass of a functioning tonearm, their mass must be included if you use the equation for resonant frequency. An atypically heavy cartridge, like some of the Benz cartridges and others, can add ~10g and more to effective mass, turn the 17g Schroeder into a 27g effective mass, because of course the mass of the cartridge is directly on top of the cantilever/stylus. (That's assuming that Schroeder makes no allowance for the cartridge weight when they state the EM of the CB tonearm at 17g.)
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@lewm , quite correct. You have to factor in the weight of the cartridge. The single best way to do that is by measurement. If the resonance frequency is off, too high, mass can always be added. This is the advantage of having an arm on the light side. It is much harder to remove mass from a heavy arm. The Schroder arms have cartridge mounting plates of three masses and counterweights of three sizes. They can be adjusted for just about any cartridge.
@drbond, the CH is a fine phono stage. It is not the Channel D Seta L20. I have a naturally aspirated 911, a Speed Yellow C4S. You only drive around at 40 mph. I prefer 100 mph. Above that in New Hampshire is classified as reckless driving which takes speeding to a whole other level legally. You would still benefit from a proper subwoofer array, just not as much as someone who listens to Metallica at 100 dB. It is not just the added bass but the lower distortion everywhere else. Any bass note in a full range speaker is going to Doppler distort everything else the driver is trying to reproduce. If you can see the diaphragm moving it is Doppler distorting all other frequencies. I have observed naked ESRs on numerous occasions. You can see diaphragm excursions up to about 100 Hz. Which is where I cross over to subs. Even at 100 dB you can not see my diaphragms move. The difference in sound quality is exceptional.
Where do you live?
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Or you can come to my house and hear great bass response from a pair of 845PXs with no subwoofers. ESLs don’t “hate” bass. They are hampered by diaphragm to stator spacing, bias voltage, panel size, and phase cancellation. And by amplifiers.
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