Phantom Supreme to 4Point-14?

Dear Lew, I think that your (beloved) son explains the situation. His ascetic

charakter he obviously ''inherited'' from his mom and not from his dad.

My beloved son is the oposit but in the sens that he also does not

care about my hobby but well about his. More in particuar who should pay

for HIS hobby.

But now ''something totaly different''.. Nobody got the idea to check those

so called ''jewel bearings'' on internet.  Raul will not change his mind

but probably understand the problem of those RUBY bearings in his

beloved  EPA 100. Not to mention their BEST MM's with ''damper'' problem

called ''low riders'',

Nah. She’s oblivious to the big speakers, maybe because we’ve been married 45 years and I’ve had speakers of similar size, if not even bigger and more ugly (two pairs of KLH 9s) since before we met. 

Dear Leww, Thanks for your politeness and kindness. However those

seem to apply only after your dead. I don't believe in God or other

not physical entities by in  your case I do beieve in angels. Your wife

is different  from  all others. She give up her by mother neture given

right to decide about furnishing but  you used your own right and

provided even your living room with those ''Spanish doors'' invented

for the shay  people by clothing but in you case called ''HUGE electrostate''

of which you own TWO . One in the celar were your wine is also situated. 

All my visitors and IN particuar ladies asked ''what are THOSE?  refering

to my speakers. The ''obvous qiestion'' was ''why areTHOSE so big?''

But they were never satisfy with my answer: ''you can't get bass from small kind!''

All the ladies  advised my wife to divorse your trully without knowing my

ONLY condition to my than girl friend: ''I want the right to choose my speakrs''

all other ''things'' related to furnishing will be your ''jurisdiction''. But geuss

what: her whole life she regreted this ''only one'' condition. You can than

understan in this context  why I want to see and chat  with your wife. Kenwood

included. I am sure that I will  get ''this one'' for free from her. because she

AT LAST will be liberated from your hobby.

 

I am an advocate of not encouraging any individual to take on something that is assessed through 'Rose Tinted Glasses'.

@lewm like your self, I am wed to Japanese Vintage TT's, I have these bought on one occasion from within the UK and all others from abroad.

Many SP10's once seen in the UK were ripped out from Radio Station Booths and sold on with the Consuls produced for the Studio with a Built in Power Supply.

I know many who got on the SP10 MkII Ladder this way, but I chose not to use this as the method. For the record SP10 MkII's were commonly seen in the era selling for £150-200. If you were willing to take a Job Lot, £90ish per unit is a accurate reflection of the asking prices.

In the UK today, a TT bought at this time and being one that has ended being put to use as a more conventional TT design, can easily acquire £1500 as a sale item.

What I do know is that many TT's from these vintages, especially ones removed from Radio Stations, have undergone some sought of patching up to have them appear seemingly conventional.

The 'under the hood aspect' is certainly an unknown, and to the individual not time served and not having a clear direction on what would be a good practice following a purchase, especially the individual being fantastical about the idea of buying into TT's that receive reports on the impact made, like those from myself.

The idea, that such good reports are a result of buying a TT only are very very wrong. In my case there is a support required from other parties, to get onto the Starting Grid and eventually Pull Away successfully from the Start Line.

It is this Beat that is sent out from my Drum.    

Nandric, I am feeling very old.  I will tell my wife to offer you the L07D upon my expiration. I am not sure what is the bone of contention regarding vintage and Japanese turntables, but for what it's worth, I bought all my vintage Japanese TTs here in the good old USA (not always good and certainly not old by Japanese or European standards).  The L07D came from a guy in Queens, a borough of NYC.  The NOS Technics SP10 Mk3 was sniffed out by a non-audiophile but collector friend of mine in Miami, FL.  The owner had owned it for many decades, sitting in its box in his closet.  It took quite a bit of haggling to get it from him at a reasonable price. I cannot even recall where I found the Victor TT101, but it took 2 years and the serendipitous discovery of JP Jones and his expertise to get it running properly.  Since then, it's been totally reliable. The Denon DP80 came from a fairly well known and well regarded dealer in CA, somewhere.  The DP80 needed a new chip, probably owing to the fact it is a 100V unit that was run at 120V in CA.  I found the "unobtainable" chip on Alibaba.

For what it's worth, my prodigal son in Tokyo could not care less about my hobbies or audio per se.  He is a complete ascetic. Generally, he prefers not to intervene to help me purchase items in Japan, but during our most recent visit, he caved in and spoke on my behalf, in Japanese, to a Yokohama-based company to facilitate a purchase.  (Viv Float tonearm.) Eleven years ago, he reluctantly helped me buy a Koetsu Urushi in Akihabara, the electronics mecca of Tokyo, but that's about it.  I love him dearly, regardless.

I would say Europe, especially Germany in the guise of "West Germany", recovered more rapidly from WW2 devastation than did Japan.  As late as the late 1950s or early 1960s, the slogan "Made in Japan" was a synonym for poor quality in the USA.  And there was no market here for Japanese cars until the late 60s. This, in my opinion, was due to a racist sentiment here, at that time.

@nandric I stated " From my end, it is best for those that are new to the idea, are the ones receiving guidance to become individuals that have something to attach a Caveat Emptor approach to. "

I certainly don't believe you fall into that as a demographic.

The Country Japan, as did Germany, bounce back very quickly in relation to becoming production Power Houses, following the Second World War.

Their Mainstream Industries R&D Departments in all areas of High Yield Sales Items has been a phenomenal success in the advancement of Technologies being adopted in a particular era.

No other Industries from any Country were able to compete, with the qualities being associated with the end products.

Japanese Motorcycles trounced all over indigenous Manufactured Motorbikes, pretty much being the demise of many Brands, with numerous years of being specialists behind them.

This most likely occurred from Electric Toasters to Electric Sewing Machines.

Dept born from Greed hit the Countries Inflation, which got them down on their knees. One does not need to look to far beyond their Room Window, to see that little bit of 'History Repeating Itself'.

In the UK in Premises owning Millions of Pounds worth of Food Stock and annual Turnover of 100's of millions if not Billions, there are Food Banks for customers to donate food items to, set up by the Check Outs. Work that one out, I am totally Bamboozled by it. 

Dear pindac, If your warrning is directed at me in connection with Lew''s

Kenwood you are at  wrong address. I bought only one cart in Japan,

Ikeda's Rex because I was not able to find one ''in de West''. But my

eaxperience with Japanese intermediers ( plural) was the reason to

never do this again. But Lew is differen because one of his sons

live there. So he can search for ''real bargains''. I buy only from

persons whom I know.

But your warriing is important  for the novice in our forum.

BTW I never ''grasped'' Japanese ''export success'' . Some ''things''

are simply incomprehensible, Like, for example,, American collectables.

When it comes to Vintage TT's and Imports from Japan for the present purchasing environment, Do Note:

As a result of my very recent experience of purchasing my beloved Vintage Japanese TT Models direct from Japan, of which one has a Stainless Steel Machined Platter and one has a Heavy Plinth (Added Weight).

The latter half of 2023 is presenting ludicrous shipping costs to the UK, I suspect these will be reflected in most long haul flights.

Combine these incurred shipping costs with the 'to be' added 25% Import Duties and it is not long before the cost of the Bargain find, will become appreciated in cost by close to 150%-%175 Uplift to the purchase cost.

Then there is the Gamble on the condition of said purchase, I expect an individual to have to add another £60-80, without any shipping costs for the Platter Spindle  Bearing Investigation/Service, this should be considered a mandatory work to be undertaken. Start adding exchange parts due to deterioration or misuse, and the cost can easily increase by £50ish. 

For the full Overhaul/Modernisation of the Platter Spindle Bearing, to the level of performance I see as being extremely attractive as an addition, especially using modern Materials, Extremely Tight Machining Tolerances and Lubricant selected to optimise the overall function of the parts, I expect to be paying out £150-£200 for this, if no complications are met, and this is without any shipping costs included.

I would not know how to predict what a complication might need in monies parted with to correct the issue discovered. I am aware that Fatigue Fractures in a Spindles Bearing Housing has been discovered as a really unwanted condition, and abraded Spindles as well as scoured interference fit Balls at a Spindle Base are commonly encountered.

The above are reasonably easy to deal with, but will be more costly, in either version for the correct skill set to carry out the tasks. Obviously the Cracks in a Bearing Housing present a completely different challenge.

The 'Fly in the Ointment' and most difficult to detect is the Electronics being with a fault, Investigation into this, where the working circuitry is optimised for the performance, is not for the novice EE, or even the EE that is adept in EE tasks.

If such an EE as above does want to try there luck, I'm not to stand in their way by being discouraging.  

For my own peace of mind, and for my owned models, the Electronics are best left to the time served EE, who has a history of being hands on and proven record of really knowing what is what.

It to me seems that if a Import TT of any Vintage, or a Vintage TT is purchased without a well known history, the idea of assuming it is fit for the purpose of being a ancillary in the Vinyl Replay Trilogy, that can have the other two supporting ancillaries come with a combined value of £3k - £10K, is a very high risk assumption. It is something I would certainly not be carrying out or encouraging.

All 'go to' TT's from a Vintage era, used by myself, are only put into regular service   after having being dealt with, either Mechanically or Mechanically/Electronically,  by a renowned specialist who's works come heavily recommended.

I would predict for a Vintage DD TT, a basic investigation and odd swap of component to be of a Cost of £180ish, a Model with many faults needing discovery and correction can easily sweep upwards towards £500, and again no shipping is added to these costs.

For the novice, trying to work out what they have bought into.

If the TT switches on and rotates, placing an ear to the chassis/Platter area will/will not produce a audible noise from the mechanical function of the TT.

 A Stethoscope placed on the Chassis/Plinth will be a very valuable device to pick up audible sound, but to the novice user, the sound produced might cause alarm to them, even if a only minor case.  

If Mechanical Sound is detected by the ear, the Chassis or Plinth can be gently touched to feel if vibration can be detected.

If a Speed Rotation is wanting to be checked, it is best not to rely on any inbuilt speed control devices. It is best to use a off board independently powered Strobe  device.

By using a Standalone Strobe device Speed Fluctuation will be seen with immediacy.

What will not be known with immediacy is whether the fluctuation, is resulting from the Electronics for the Mechanical Interface in the Spindle, i.e, a very worn Spindle Bushing can create a eccentric rotation, which will manifest on the Standalone Strobe as a fluctuation.

I am wed to Vintage TT's for nearly 30 Years, starting with Idler Drive and continuing with Idler Drives for quite a period of time, and in the past 10 Years moving over to Imported Vintage Model DD TT's from Japan.

I will not discourage anybody from the experiences that can be created, the more the merrier who shout from the Roof Tops their newly found satisfaction.

From my end, it is best for those that are new to the idea, are the ones receiving guidance to become individuals that have something to attach a Caveat Emptor approach to.

Knowledge is Power, or in case of Vintage TT's, it can be a case of keeping the hard earned in the Bank. .    

Dear Lew,

I assume that everyone is familiar with your ''deviant love affairs'' in the

sense of prefering TT's about all other , say, components. Your tonearm

preferences are directly related to your TT's. I ever try to get your 

Kenwood without meantioning my reason. Ex post I can expalain.

I own this ''better Breuer'' with 6 ( aka six) counterweights which is

AS MADE for your Kenwood. For the second arm that is. I never

mentined this reason to you because of the fear that you would ask

ME to sell the ''precious'' to you. How could I refuse such appeal

from my English teacher ? The ''deviant'' preferece is easy to explain:

by your resolute  refusal to sell to me your Kenwood. 

Dea Raul,

I have no intetion to contiue the disput with you about EPA 100. My feedback

by oweners mentioned those ruby bearings as  problematic because those

''give up'' as first. Like dampers by EMT cartridges. I am wondering that

nobody in this forum has something to say about this issue. I sold both

of my EPA 100 for the given reason of ''not suitable for MC cartridge''.

Try to balance with its counterweight an Ikeda FR-7 of any kind or

those ''big Ortofon's''.

@nandric : You are wrong again and talk because you have " mouth ". I never posted if the EPA 100 is better but only about its overall design made not by a single person but for a company that in those times belongs to the japanese gigantic Matushita group where Panasonic belongs too.

You can be sure that no one has more resources, dedicated and experts engineers, quality level of design and excecution of designs that TECHNICS.

In those times Technics never did a single design mistake in all its analog audio items. Technics manufactured TT motors for companies as Micro Seiki and others, his SP-02 was designed expressily to use as a motor for the recording cutting machines and even the SP10 MK3 motors were used in those cutting machines. You have no idea what you are talking about. With all respect to Ikeda and Reed you named they are almost " nothing " against what was Technics in those times: a " brutal " corporation.

 

There is no single problem with heavier counterweigths in the EPA 100, Technics gaves it as an add-on for those customers that need it. The tonearm bearing desing is unique gimbal kind using 20 precision ruby balls ( Technics precission not other manufacturer level. ). Got it? period.

 

Technics EPA-100 on thevintageknob.org

 

 

R.

Graham’s customer service is so so at best.  Kuzma’s customer service is first class. 

Dear Raul, Your prejudice about a.o. tonearms ''prevent you'' to grasp

the question. The question is NOT which arm is better but WHY SOME

OF THEM  have limited counter weights. One of possible reasons than

are kinds of bearings. In this context I mentioned Ikeda's preference

for ''steel bearings''. I myself have experiece not only with both EPA!00

(the black one looks fantsticc) but also with 4 versions of Reed. My

latest 3P I needed to put together myslef. So I was able to SEE the bearings.

Those are cheap .artificial sapphire kind which anybody can check qua

prices. Those are ''hard to believe'' in connection with present tonearm

prices. BTW my preferenc is since 1984 FR-64 S. For good reasons

irrespective what Raul thinks. MM Raul is different ''animal'' than tonearms

and  other componnts  Raul..

I have to retract my sentiments about Hifido, to a degree.  I once did successfully purchase a turntable from them, Pioneer Exclusive P3.  That purchase was carried out on my behalf by a guy who lived in Tokyo. Then he subsequently asked me if I minded if he kept the tt for himself, to which I agreed.  So I never did get to own a P3, but I've got enough TTs to keep me busy anyway.

@lewm , that would explain why the Mk2 I saw seemed like it was born to HiFiDo on hold. Last week I saw nice one on the Yahoo Japan auction site, complete in the box. Buyee, the bidding proxy for foreigners, would not allow me to bid more than 300,000 yen despite my advance request for a limit increase. It went for 340,000. Foiled again!

In that EPA 100 regards yes I'm. If you have trouble with the EPA 100 could be that your tonerarms been not in good operation condition due that are vintage ones.

 

Anyway, enjoy the MUSIC.

 

R.

Dear Raul, I owned both EPA 100 and speak from my own experience. They

are not suitable for MC carts. To put it otherwise ruby or sapphire bearings can't 

support the needed counter weights. In this context I mentioned Ikeda-san .

I hope Albertporter will explain Breur bearings. My guess is that the bearings he used explain why he refused to provide his customers with extre weights. Very Interesting to know that you are more knowledgaable  than Ikeda san. 

 

 

Dear @nandric : What Ikeda-san " said " it does not matters about the Technics EPA 100 tonearms and it’s only his own ignorance about.

 

EPA 100 works really fine with any kind of cartridges including LOMC ones. I owned all Technics top vintage tonearms models where in all them Technics gaves as an additional choice a second heavier counterweigth. Even I still own one of its models.

So, Technics knew exactly how theirs designs " runs " and certainly not you or the Redd one or Ikeda can´’t go against Technics designs where everything was CALCULATED by its experts engineers.

 

Who are you against Technics? when its tonearms are just superb with any cartridge.

 

R.

Wrm, having visited a branch of Hifido during a recent visit to Tokyo, I’m wondering how they ever do business. Anything of real interest in that shop was marked as being under negotiation, therefore not for sale. How long can it take to “negotiate “? Same goes for their website.

It would be interesting to know if and why  Breuer refused to provide

his customers with additional counter weights?  Alabertporter was his

friend and also importer of Breuer arms in America. He should be 

able to explain the issue. There are ''rummours'' that his bearings

were not from steel.

Addendum. I own Sumiko 800 with 6 couter-weights. Meant for carts

from 6g till 25g. The idea being to get each weight as near as possible

to the pivot. One can deduce ''some'' conclusions from this info

assuming the premise is ''correct''. 

EPA 100 (both versions) is not suitable for MC carts. BTW Ikeda-san deed

not trust ruby bearings. Reed kinds also use saphire bearings  which have

limited (counter) weight  possibilty. Vidmantas refused to provide me with

heavier kinds because if this ''saphire limitation''.

@rauliruegas, I missed an EPA-100 Mk2 by an hour yesterday on HiFiDo! It was scarfed up almost immediately upon being listed, and at a good price. Dang!

Many thanks to all who contributed to this thread. I have a lot to think about as I plan my next move, be it to a new cartridge or tonearm--and perhaps into a whole new VTA paradigm. I much appreciate all the patience and wisdom shared.

 

Dear @wrm57 : Both EPA 100 are really good tonearms and in any case both needs an internal rewiring. Japan vintage analog items or Yahoo could be the best sites to look for either one.

Differences in between depends of the cartridge you mount and the system resolution but your A90 will perform lovely in either one, the MK2 is more hard to find out.

 

Now you could look too for the EPA 500 where exist with at least 2 arm pipes, one astraigth and the similar to the EPA 100 S shaped. Build material is similar to the EPA 100 but came with the truly best VTA on the fly tonearm ever made that's the same that comes in the 100MK2.

Differences with the 100 mainly are: bearing is not " ruby jewels " as both 100's but gimbal where the bearing friction stated lower than 7mg instead the 5mg. on the 100. I owned the 500 too and the S shaped pipe is the 250.

 

R.

Glad you talked with Thom.  I was also thinking the 11" hybrid Kuzma he sells would sound amazing on a Technics setup.  Thom is also very good at getting tables drilled correctly for arm installation. 

Also very much agree with Mijostyn's points about the SmarTractor. Wally Skater and Wally Reference tools. I use them all the time. My USB scope is the typical Dino-Lite version.  With a good "stage" it gets the job do and I can reliably double check SRA. My Lyras, SoundSmiths, Ortofons and Koetsu have always been very close to 92 degrees when the Wally Reference sets the tonearm to parallel.

The Kuzma 4P9 VTA adjustment is very good but it is intended for set it and forget it.  Sounds like you are working through that!😎

@lewm see wrm's post above.

@wrm57 , I currently use a Schroder CB 9" and am very happy with it. I have talked with Frank by email on several occasions. The very longest he recommends is 11" and no longer. It is a wonderful design and IMHO the perfect pivoted offset arm. It hits all the important design criteria I have.

As for the Wallyscope that is a conversation I would rather have privately as it is a long one. Mine really is no longer a Wallyscope. It is an MS Tool and Woodcraft one off design. Message me and we will talk. 

Yes, you have to make sure your VTA is set correctly or all bets are off. You also need a way to remove any personal bias from the equation and that is not easy.  If you currently have a VTA tower and can adjust it on the fly without disturbing the turntable have someone else do the adjusting while you sit in the listening chair. They should also keep a record of the results to show you. 

@mijostyn , I greatly appreciate your thoughtful post.

I take your advice about VTA seriously and without offense. If it's a delusion, it is a persistent one, decades long, but perhaps confirmation bias is operating in more ways than one. I'm going to try again with my current arms to see if I can be satisfied with a happy median VTA. It would certainly open some doors.

Maybe, too, it's time to set VTA with a microscope and see what's what. I doubt I'm comically off but there's one way to find out. Do you like the WallyScope? Seems pricey but perhaps justifiably so. Other recommendations for a scope with good software for drawing and measuring angles would be greatly appreciated.

Over the course of a very long conversation, Thom was remarkably careful about specific arm recommendations, probably because he shares @lewm's caveat about cartridge and table synergy with any arm. The custom (as opposed to commercial) Schoeders came up a few times, as did the Kuzma 4P-9. For my Technics plinth he thought his hybrid 11 would be great option, if I could get over the VTA thing. If you're unaware, he mounts an 11 armtube on a 9 base, and does so with Frank's blessing and apparently good results. Given the 18g eff mass of the 4P-11, he thought the 19g of the 4P-14 was a misprint on the Kuzma website, so he is emailing Frank for confirmation. I mentioned the Triplanar 12 and he deflected it. MSL is a fairly new line for him, so his hands-on experience with them is in the early stages.

@wrm57 , Did Thom have any tonearm suggestions?

Wally tools are overall very good. I use the Skater and Reference. I also have a very modified Wallyscope which is really a lab grade Amscope USB microscope on a highly modified microscope stage. I also use a SmarTractor which, IMHO, is the best protractor for old eyes. It is also killer for mounting tonearms. 

wrm, This is in no way an insult to you. It is a design issue all humans have to one degree or another. When it comes to very minor differences our minds can play tricks on us. This is so true about slight changes in VTA. Changes in VTA affect high frequencies. As the contact point of fine line styluses changes VTA  it disengages from high frequency modulations first. The thinner the contact point the higher the frequency affected. Modern styluses can easily read 50 kHz you would have to tilt them five degrees to have any effect on audible frequencies. You are hearing what you expect to hear unless you are comically off 93 degrees. You have to prove this to your self which is not easy to do. I did it by making digital recordings at different angles so I could make instant AB comparisons with my wife doing the switching. Now, I set my cartridges up under magnification so the VTA is as accurate as you can get it. In many instances the real VTA may be far enough off that a one degree change might make a difference. I suspect this is part of the reason for this insanity. The first thing to do is make sure you have a very accurate way to set VTA. If you have an MSL, Lyra or upper model Ortofon you can assume the angles are right on and you can use a Wally Reference. I cannot speak for other high end cartridges as I have not examined them. I can also say that the Soundsmith Voice and Clearaudio Charsma were built correctly so I suspect their other higher end cartridges are also.  Other than those the only way to be sure is with a microscope. Using just your eyes can be very tricky because the contact line might not be central on the stylus. With the Replicant 100 it is more towards the rear and hard to see. 

In short, give yourself an accurate way of setting VTA then set it and forget it. 

I am not a fan of "S" shaped tonearms. It adds unnecessary mass and inertia to a tonearm. I am extremely minimalist when it comes to tonearms, less is better. I do not want any contacts between the cartridge clips and the RCAs at the phono stage end. No VTA towers or hanging strings, no elaborate head shells.  

Lewm, Thom agrees with you. I just got off the phone with him. Great guy. And like many wise heads in this thread, he gently argued against per-record VTA changes. Then he gave up. :)

I concur, Thom Mackris is one of the best in the business. He’ll give you an honest opinion, but I still say the answer to your question is cartridge dependent.

Thanks @rauliruegas . Should I hold out for the Mk2, made of Boron/Titanium, or is Titanium/Nitride Mk1 nearly as good? I’ve neither seen nor heard either one.

Dear @wrm57  : If you can find out the EPA 100 that's bettr option and up-grade vs the Graham and maybe the Reeds too.

 

 R.

Corrections to two of my previous posts.

a WallyVTA, which surprised me with how much better it made things.

I meant to say WallySkater.

And regarding the Graham counterweight:

The weight is slid along the track by an accordion-like mechanism that expands or contracts.

That’s inaccurate. It is propelled along a threaded rod that functions like a screw. But the issue of resonance and decoupling remain.

Just wanted to set the record straight.

Thank you for the tip. I’ve never talked to Tom. I might just give him a call.

That is a fine list of excellent tonearms.  I think you might enjoy a discussion with Thom Mackris of Galibier Designs.  He knows (and sells) many of those arms and can give you an experienced opinion based on your preferences.  He helped me decide between a Schroeder arm and a Kuzma. Zero pressure to purchase too.

Whether any or all of the tonearms on your list qualify as an upgrade is such a difficult question to answer, especially since the cartridge/tonearm mating is such a critical factor. I've got 5 turntables up and running with 5 different tonearms. I often move cartridges around among those tonearms, and I can testify from first hand experience that the tonearm can change the personality of a cartridge, and vice-versa.  Also, on that list, the LT has to be regarded as a different animal, in principle.  Not that I have ever heard one.

No worries, @karl_desch, my nervosa is not so labile :) and I do appreciate your thoughts. It’s certainly possible azimuth is changing with VTA. But in my experience, azimuth pertains more to clarity of image and soundstage rather than what I hear when the VTA is high or low, which pertains more to frequencies. And I can vary azimuth when the VTA is too low or too high and it does not restore what I hear when the arm is level.

Anyway, I do realize that the whole VTA question is tiresome and has been done ad nauseum in these pages. Sorry to drag you all through it again. I’m happy to let it go.

So the question for me is where do I go from the Phantom, given that I want (rightly or wrongly) the ability to vary VTA easily and repeatably, and given the constraints of my Technics plinth.

Here are the choices that come to mind:

Kuzma 4Point-14 (11 won’t fit)

Triplanar 12 (standard won’t fit)

Reeds - 10.5 and 12

Schroeder LT

Technics EPA-100 and Mk2

FR-64s or 66s with B60 base

What else??

Do all these qualify as an upgrade?

I’m using a couple of Jelco Ortofons with the Easy VTA add-on and they are surprisingly good, especially for the price. I also have a Jelco TK-850S Mk2, the one with knife-edge bearings they released a few months before calling it quits, unopned in the closet. I just haven’t wanted to burn a Panzerholz armboard on what I doubt is an upgrade. I’m looking for something at a significantly higher level to replace the Graham. Any other ideas? I would like to be able to use medium and medium-high compliance MC carts without damping, so this might rule out the FRs and the Kuzma 14.

 

@wrm57 I don't mean to worsen your nervosa.  But a couple things I've learned about VTA/SRA.  Mastering lathes that cut the lacquers or DMM discs are not "adjusted" to an industry standard.  Every record that is cut from a different lathe probably has a different ideal VTA. So if you are adjusting based on the record thickness you aren't likely to be actually preserving the correct VTA for a specific recording.  

Perhaps what you are actually hearing when you adjust your VTA for album thickness relates to preservation of azimuth?  As VTA changes, so does azimuth on most tone arms that are mounted with an overhang. 

 

@sksos Very excited to hear what you think of the CS. Port table.  A friend of mine sold his TechDas AFV for a TAT2M2 table and likes it very much. 

The main reason for this thread is b/c I’ve started to sour a bit on my Graham Phantoms. Both of them exhibit a frustrating hypersensitivity to how the counterweight is set. I don’t mean VTF, which I set carefully to the 100th of a gram. I mean the tension on the knurled knob that moves the counterweight along its track. Keep in mind that the Grahams use a screw-track to propel the counterweight toward or away from the bearing housing. The weight is slid along the track by an accordion-like mechanism that expands or contracts. I recently discovered that the slightest pressure in either direction on the controlling knob at the end of the track (and therefore the armtube) will emphasize or diminish HF info to an astonishing degree. I’m not talking about enough pressure to change the VTF at all, measured, again, to the 100th g. I mean just pressuring it, with no discernible movement of the knob at all. And pressure in either direction has obvious and predictable sonic consequences.

I surmise that this pressure slightly changes the track-screw tension, or perhaps loads or unloads the accordion-structure (almost like a spring), which changes the resonance of the arm tube/bearing housing assembly by some small but easily audible amount. In other words, the decoupling is perhaps inadequate. This affects both my Supreme and III. Maybe the Elite is immune, I have no idea.

Perhaps I was unaware of this until my system became refined enough to expose it after many years with these tonearms. I just happened upon it accidentally while adjusting VTF. But once you test for it intentionally, it becomes incontrovertible. Changes in damping amounts within the bearing housing don’t noticeably affect this phenomenon. So I’m left with the sense that I’m not sure when I'm hearing these tonearms at neutral, and therefore when I’m hearing the cartridge rather than the tonearm, and that is frustrating me.

I have good alignment tools, accumulated over the years: a Wally dedicated to Grahams, an older Wally Universal that I use for my 9-in Ortofon, a UNI-Pro that I like best for my 12-in Ortofon, a MintLP for my 12-in SME, and a smattering of others I don’t use. The Wally’s have always been my favorites. And I recently picked up a WallyVTA, which surprised me with how much better it made things.

@wrm57 , Excellent. The MinusK is the best platform. 

It is impossible to know exactly what is going on with your turntable. I was never crazy about unipivot arms. What are you using to align the cartridge? 

@mijostyn , thanks, great stuff and much food for thought.

I hear you and lewm about VTA and I really want it to be so. Life would be so much easier setting and forgetting. But every time I try that method it only sounds good on the record weight I set it VTA at. My grand experiment not to change VTA yesterday lasted 10 minutes. I set the Graham at level on an apprx 160g LP, put on a 120g, and sat back with the committed intention of not changing VTA. I thought the sound was unacceptable, and in the ways I expected. I’d blame the Graham but I have 2 and a couple of Jelco Ortofons and an SME, all active on 3 turntables, and the same thing happens with all of them. Maybe I’m projecting. Maybe I have set up issues elsewhere that reveal themselves only when VTA is imprecisely set. Maybe I’m just a Pavlovian dupe of the VTA tower industry.

I have thought about returning to the Triplanar, which I owned for many years and ultimately found to be colored toward warmth. Perhaps the newish option for silver wire would eliminate this quibble.

@lewm , that’s interesting about the sapphire tube cost, and I agree about the arm’s price. Footfall resonance is not a concern. My SP10R weighs 135 lbs and sits on a Minus-K, and my floor is a concrete slab under glued-down wood flooring.

Kuzma’s rationale for the very high effective mass of the Safir essentially boils down to the notion that any high end modern TT will be sufficiently isolated from very low frequency disturbances, like footfalls, by its isolation mechanisms. Therefore the low resonant frequency that results from such a high effective mass is not a problem. IOW, violate the 8 to 12 Hz rule for resonance at your leisure. I’m not averse to his thesis. But I am averse to the cost of the Safir, based on my research into the cost of sapphire tubes like the one used in the Safir. You can buy one for less than $50.

I think lewm meant the sonic differences between the 9 or 10 Inch and the 12 Tri Planar would be impossible to predict. He is right about the LT. I am amazed by the design and think it is brilliant lateral thinking. The understand it the best thig to do is pull the patent which is online. 

I do not like VTA towers. It is totally unnecessary to be changing it all the time and I have never had trouble adjusting it in the standard way. It makes the back of the mounting point of the arm more complicated and less rigid. Set it to 93 degrees on a 150 gram record and forget it. I use a modified Wallyscope to do this but I think younger eyes should have no problem with a hand held magnifier. You get a blank file card and draw a sharp black 93 degree angle on it and place it behind the stylus on the record. You have to accommodate to the type of stylus and sometimes it is very hard to see the contact line which is why I use the microscope. Your ears can only ballpark it. 

The 4 point 14 is simply too heavy for it. The Japanese measure compliance at 100 Hz. We measure it at 10 Hz. Add 10 to the Japanese number and you will be close to the real compliance which for the MSLs is 20. Now do your math. Math is a poor way to calculate the real resonance point. Always measure it with a test record. I always push it down to 8 Hz and if it winds up at 7 Hz fine as long as your turntable tolerates it. This improves the bass. To prevent low frequency feedback you would have to add damping. Long arms have much more inertia which you have to add into the equation. It is harder for the cartridge to move it and stop it's movement. Tracking warps and eccentric records becomes much more of a problem. This is why I only use 9" arms. They track much better and put much less stress on the cartridge. The MSLs do perfectly in an arm like the Schroder CB, Reed 2G, SME V and 9" TRi Planar. If you want to spend a pile of money get the SAT arm. Frank Kuzma is not God and can not change the laws of nature. He probably does not use subwoofers. All he is doing is trying to justify the mass of the Safir, not an arm for me.  My next arm will be a Schroder LT. I'll have to get a turntable that can handle it first. Dohmann has yet to put a vacuum  platter on the Helix as he promised. 

@larryi The degree of SRA change with the platter running varies with stylus shape and compliance. The MSL drops 2 degrees running while the MC Diamond does not quite make it to 1 degree. I have not looked at the Lyra yet but it is probably close to the MSL. 93 degrees is an average. 

@mijostyn , did you try the MSL Platinum with the 4P-14 and find it to need a lot of damping? The cart's compliance of 10cu and the arm's effective mass of 19 put resonance at 9 Hz, right in the fat part of green on Vinyl Engine calculator. Or is there a different reason to use the damping?

Interestingly enough, the Safir has an astronomical effective mass of 60g, yet the Kuzma website says it is compatible with cartridges up to 25cu. Frank has written a whitepaper on why the received wisdom on resonance is wrong. I haven't read it but plan to.

@sksos , that sounds like big fun. Let us know how it goes.

Setting at 93 degrees static does make sense--drag would lower the actual angle in play.  

The largest sonic change I've heard in all my time with analog is when I installed the Safir arm, it wasn't subtle it was jaw dropping. Yes cartridges have their flavor, tonearms have had their flavor and even the dozen or more tables that I've owned all had their flavor but nothing could have prepared me when I swapped my 4Point11 for the Safir. At least in my own experience. Although out of curiosity I've ordered a CS Port https://www.csport.audio/products/products-turntabletat1m2-en.html table that just cleared Customs and should arrive in the AM. Yes I'll be using the Safir on it, very excited!