People who are Irrationally Afraid of tube amps

I have to admit, Eldartfords arguments don't make my fears seem that irrational.

Twl...I am not all that impressed with academic credentials, although I have some myself. I agree that a listening test would be interesting, but unless I get to an expo it can't happen. Tell me one very simple thing. Are the specs I quoted wrong? How can four percent distortion be covered up with other sonic characteristics?

Some people just will never get it.

Why don't you bring your old Stromberg Carlson over to Mr. Berning's place and have a comparative listening session. Or for that matter, bring your currently used amp over there. After you pick your jaw up off the floor, you might think of things in an entirely different way.

Or maybe you'd like to have a scientific discussion with Mr. Berning as to the technical merits of his amps. With his Doctorate Degree in Physics, 25 year history as a pioneering audio circuit designer, and his various patents of cutting edge audio circuits, he might be able to "hang with you" in the technical department, and may even be able to "struggle through" the technical reasons why his designs sound and work better than others.

I'm sure that would be a very enlightening discussion for you.

Tubegroover..OK, I checked it out. The technology (OTL) is interesting.

70 watts at 2 percent distortion, with output impedance of 8.7 ohms, and all for a mere $4500. Sorry, I don't think my Maggies would like that.

So I also checked out the other model called "Siegfried 300B". Into 4 ohms it clips at 8 watts. Distortion, at some unspecified power level, is 4.3 percent. All for only $6950.

You must be kidding. My original (1949) Stromberg-Carlson (pre-HiFi) receiver did better. I know that distortion specs are not the whole story, but when THD gets over 1 percent it becomes a big obstacle to overcome by other virtues. Fear of such an amp doesn't seem at all "irrational" to me. But then, we are all allowed to do some things that aren't rational, but are fun. Enjoy your hobby.

I have just started with tubes, I have two in my preamp stage of my integrated. Very satisfying sound. However, I do not think I would want anymore tubes than two. It does get expensive rolling. I have already spent $100+ on 3 pairs of tubes and I still want more! Also, my thoughts are you need to pay premium prices from respectable dealers if you want to recoup some of your money back if you wish to sell.

Tubegroover...Perhaps I am just lucky, but the only failures I have ever experienced with transistorized equipment involved a power supply diode (easily fixed, and could also have occured with many tube amps) and a bad wiring connector internal to a Tandberg preamp (unrelated to the amplification devices).

I got into the HiFi hobby (which was what audio was called) about 40 years ago, so I obviously used (and built and repaired) lots of tube gear. I enjoyed it, and some sounded darned good, like Dynaco amps and preamps, but reliability was never a strong suit.

I will check out the Berning zh270 amp, as you suggest. Perhaps tube amps have improved in the last 20 years.

Elhartford No, I wouldn't necessarily describe tube users exclusively in the audiophile camp. There are many music lovers with tube based systems that wouldn't and couldn't be categorized as audiophiles by any measure. I would have included myself in that group 10 years ago. My response was to your statement at its face value.

You make some valid comments concerning tubes in general so far as you go. It is somehow assumed by many that SS is forever reliable which is just not the case. In fact SS gear can present the owner with very costly repair costs when components fail. I would only acknowledge that tube gear in most instances requires a greater degree of maintenance to retain its maximum performance than does SS but as JohnK notes, well designed tube gear does retain its value better and is more desirable on the used market than vintage SS.

If you want to talk about reliability, great design and performance check out the Berning zh270 as a current example. Output tubes that are auto biased and cost 5.00 each to replace and will probably last 20 years. Question, which is really cheaper long term when you look at all the factors of depreciation and maintenance? In my book the only reason for purchasing a ss amp over a tube amp would be performance, definitely not maintenance. It is a negligible consideration all things considered.

Solid state wears out too,I would rather own old tube gear than old solid state at least you can repair the old tube gear + it holds its value better.Output transistors need replacement after about 10-15 years or so[ask any vintage krell owner ] they degrade over time but unlike a tube amp you cant just plug in new ones.New tubes means a near fresh amp.I have gone back and forth between high quality tube and solid state gear always come back to tubes .Happy listening

Tubegroover...If you define an "audiophile" as someone who uses tube equipment, you can say that 100 percent of audiophiles use tube equipment. I have experienced the "cutting edge" of tube design, but the wounds are almost completely healed.

Seriously, I think that we all agree that the best tube equipment, when maintained in tip-top condition is arguably the best. However, the financial investment both for purchase and for maintenance cannot be justified by most people, especially when there is so much good SS equipment available. To use an analogy: a Ferrari is a wonderful performance car, but most people couldn't put up with the constant expensive tweeking needed to keep it running, and they find that a Honda is more satisfactory overall.

"Except for a few audiophiles, transistors have replaced tubes. There must be a reason"

Except for most audiophiles, 1 out of 3 still use tubes. There must be a reason. Judging by many of the above responses and in other threads, it is fear. To those that have and prefer SS, isn't it great that we have choices? And to those that HAVE experienced a cutting edge tube design, the caveats really don't matter.

The high voltages running around in tube amps cause capacitors, both in the power supply and between amplification stages to degrade. Of course tubes degrade.

Reliability, both with regard to performance specs and physical damage, is certainly affected by the degree of skill and care taken in the design and manufacture of the unit, be it tube or solid state, but success is harder to achieve with tubes.

Except for a few audiophiles, transistors have replaced tubes. There must be a reason.

Seriously, tube equipment has a major advantge over solid-state. And yes, I guess it could be scarry for a novice? With SS you can only tinker so much with different interconnects where with tubes you can really tailor a entrirely different sound w/ just one swap. I guess sorta like a Turntable cartridges? DON'T BE FRIGHTENED BY THE TUBES, THEY DON'T BITE!!! Like MIKEY says, try em you might like em??? Heck you might Love Em?

Its probably a lack of knowledge about tube gear.

When im able to get a good 2ch system ive been debating on going with Conrad Johnson Tube equipment, or going cheaper and buying a Krell 300i, Running some GMA Europas with either.

Im leaning more twards the Krell because i like/trust/know SS gear. I dont PREFER it because i never heard tube gear, but tubes gear looks like fun. Albeit, more maintenance is required, but im sure there is a payoff.

If i do end up getting some tube gear, i might very well opt to buy some bottlehead kits and do it that way. It would be a good learning experience and would get me into tube gear without going broke.

Thanks for all the great responses! And for letting me rant (I figure Dennis Miller is not on HBO anymore, so maybe I can take up some of the slack :-) I just wanted to say a couple more things: 1. I have absolutely no problem with those who prefer SS, for whatever reason. One of my favorite amps right now is SS (with certain speakers, other speakers I think really need tubes). 2. Guys (or gals) like Jmcgrogan2 are a blessing, in having their system strategy figured out, regardless of whether they want tubes, SS, or both, & I'm sure he already knows what he wants when he contacts sellers. 3. Handholding, or mentoring, that's a good point: I try to do as much as I can in any sale, but it's hard to do long distance via e-mail, esp. if people already have their minds made up. 4. I know tire-kickers are inevitable when selling almost anything; maybe a lot of people who e-mailed me about my amp just use the "tube hassles" excuse later on because they really weren't going to buy anyway. They're probably also e-mailing people with SS amps FS, then later bailing because they say they really want "the sound of tubes". (I'm being facetious, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me).

BTW, it looks like I have a buyer for my amp, a great guy with a great system. And in fact, he was a bit reluctant at first to buy a tube amp. But I've offered to show him how to bias it, replace the tubes, etc. (all of which I'm amazed I can even do, with my limited technical knowledge). And someday I'm gonna get those Cary mono-blocs......I just hope the tubes aren't too expensive! :-)

thanks again, steve

Nrchy -They're not watching, just glowing in your reflection :)

I can't deal with them, I know they're watching me in the dark.

Steve:

Most of the outright failures I have experienced (aside from stupid abuse/misoperation) have been with SS amps, not tube amps.

SS:

1: Musical Fidelity X-A1 integrated amp (one power section dead following < 1200 hours of usage - too bad as it sounded very nice with efficient speakers).

2. Musical Fidelity AS-100 power amp (loud hum following < 5 hours usage - returned to Audio Advisor).

3. Hafler DH-500 power amp (power cord interface became brittle and broke < 5 years from manufacture - this was an easy 5 minute diagnosis/fix once I popped the cover). Primarily for PA use, but nice with Hi-fi also.

4. Quad 303 power amp (caps and some of the resistors shot < 8 years from the manufacture date (too much of a hassle to repair per a friend/tech).

5. Quad 33 preamp (same as the 303 power amp above - I ended trading both units, with full disclosure, for a painting:-).

6. Advent 300 receiver (never a problem with sporatic usage over a 9-10 years period).

7. Phase Linear 400 power amp (had a tendency to shut down when continuously operated for approx. 6+ hours whether it be PA or Hifi use - otherwise reliable for lesser periods - bought it new and used it for a couple of years - preferred Dynaco ST-70's in mono mode for PA use as they sounded better and they did not shut down).

Tube Amps:

1: Various RCA, Emerson, etc., stereo console integrated, power and preamps (5-10 years old @ time of usage and no problems with Hi-fi use - blew up a few using them as guitar amps - 10 years old and clueless @ the time).

2. Eico HF-81 integrated (no problems and recapped after 10-12 years - standard maintenance for most any amp).

3. Dynaco Stereo 70 power amps (owned 4 of these and no problems other than having 2 people run/crank a signal through 2 of them w/o a load/speakers being connected, this caused major damage to one of them and it is a case of misuse - recapped the remaining three after 10 years, or so).

4. Mac 30 mono block power amps (never a problem and recapped once approx. 20 years after manufacture).

5. Dyanco Pas3X and Dynaco Pas3 preamps (no problems - had one of them modified with the tone controls being removed from circuit - caps reformed well and were never replaced)

6. Dynaco SCA-35 integrated amp (not mine, but on long term loan - had it recapped/refurbished even though it sounded/performed fine as the caps were original and 15+ years old).

7. Audion Silver Night 300B SET amp (no problems other than the chassis ground being miswired @ the factory, per the US rep, an easy fix).

8. Pilot 690A tuner/preamp (tuner section damaged in transit, but the preamp section is fine - reformed instead of replaced original caps, no problems with this 40 year old piece).

9. Pilot 232 power amp (replaced a single ceramic resistor, otherwise no problems with this 40+ year old piece - reformed original caps).

10. Pilot 240 integrated amp (no problems - 40+ years old - reformed original caps).

11. Bottlehead Foreplay preamp kit (2+ years old - I'm the second owner - no problems).

12. Bottlehead Paramour 2a3 SET mono block kits (same info as Bottlehead Foreplay).

From my experience tubes get the nod for reliablity and I did not even list the tube guitar amps I have owned in the past (not a problem with one). I also plan to recap the old Pilot units eventually if I decide to keep/use them long term (only had them for a couple of years now).

Wow, what a great forum. Everyone seems to be sincerely in touch with their feelings and yet so civilized. Is this really another Audiogon tube/solid state issue? Very refreshing. Well done ladies and gentlemen.

TUBES GET HOT = COULD GET BURNED? OUCH

I'm one of those that you talk about. Although I've never tire kicked a tube amp, I have thought about trying one occasionally. I've owned tube preamps, phono stges and cd players with no problems or complaints. However, tube amps do take tube problems up a notch, IMHO. I've been in this hobby over 25 years, and I'm afraid to try one, there, I said it. I've heard of the 'problems', and they do seem to be more likely to occur in a tube amp than a SS amp. Power tubes tend to cost more to replace than line stage tubes, and from what I've read over the years, are more likely to cause 'flame-outs'. Possibly even taking out equipment down stream, such as a speaker driver. Some, like myself, are streched as thin as we can finacially to get the best that we can, but cannot afford any kind of reliability issues. I buy everything used, most from Agon. If a tube flames out and takes out a driver, it could take months for me to afford to get my system up and running again, finacially. I don't have a second system, or spare parts (preamps, amps, etc) laying around. Now maybe I'm wrong and I should downgrade from BAT, Classe, and Threshold to Rotel and NAD so I can have money to afford second systems and spare parts, but that's my choice. To squeeze every last penny into one system. Reliability becomes much more important in a situation like this though.

Regards,
John

One reason some people I know invoke is that they are not so much afraid of tubes as confused by differing opinions as to which tubes are "best." I've seen a tube aficionados argue ad nauseum about which tubes (NOS vs. this brand vs. that brand) are best for such-and-such a piece of equipment. It's enought to give a novice a splitting headache.

Experienced AudioGoners? Not everyone is equally experienced with all kinds of gear. We solid state folks keep hearing that tubes are king (I've heard tubes and ss in many forms and it really is a matter of personal tradeoffs and preferences IMHO). So, some of us want to extend a toe into the water but we are nervous about it and need some reassurances and background to help with the buying decision. At the same time, we want things cheap. There's the rub: We want the advice and handholding of a dealer with the pricing of a web purchase.

Steveaudio, since it doesn't seem you wish to assume a mentoring role (and there's no reason you should), simply let folks know at the first email that you are willing to describe the equipment but will not offer advice or guidance. Don't blame folks for asking, just about everyone wants as much as they can get for free ;-)

Since I've had a tube line stage, tube phono stage, SET monoblocks, and tube tuner for years, all I can say about the the tubophobes is, "it's their loss." I admit I had a tube DAC that was frequently in the shop, but its problems had nothing to do with the tubes.

I think it must be a mental disorder similiar to claustra-phobia.....perhaps....let's call it popatube-aphobia. Do you think this phobia could be documented for the Medical Journals? Personally...I believe that good tube design to be a whole lot more reliable than SS stuff.Back in the 70's I blew up a phase linear 700b on more than 1 occasion as well as an ampzilla and a pair of Kenwood monoblocks.Built a dynakit st-70 back in 1967 that is still used every day in my kitchen.Other than replacing tubes for performance,I have never had an issue with it.I still use an ARC sp-10 preamp from 1985 and have never had a single problem.I foolishly sold the D-79b last year. Same thing...never had a problem.There are literally multi- thousands of old classic Macintosh,Marantz,Dynas,Scotts,Fischers etc from the 50's and 60,s in fine operation as we speak.Do you think any of the ss stuff of the era is still working today? I doubt it!

Tubes are very reliable, especially in line level applications (preamps, DACs, etc.) and even tube power amps can be made to be as reliable as solid state power amps. Sean makes some good points above as to why this isn't always the case. My main grip against tube power amps is that they are very big, require gobs of power and throw off alot of heat. To the extent that anything in the audiophile world is practical, tube power amps are not that practical. But then again, there is the Berning.

going through two amps in several years hardly sounds like a trouble free situation.

Most of the "reliability factor" or lack of it that goes along with tube gear is due to poor design, cut-corner build and too many bean-counters. If these products were built the way that the engineers designed them, they would probably be more reliable. The bean-counters say "this product is too expensive to produce and we won't make enough product, so find some way to knock the cost down by XX percent and we can put it into production". The end result is that they use 1/4 watt resistors when they need 1/2 watt, use plastic where it should be ceramic, etc...

Then you get into the guys that insist on keeping the circuit as short and simple as possible. Whie this may be a valid approach, it leaves little room for safety factors and protection circuitry. Even if one were to build such a design like the proverbial "brick out-house", when something fails, it fails BIG-TIME !!!

Bare in mind that this also takes place in SS gear. Since tubes run MUCH higher voltage though, the potential for increased arcing and / or "flame out" is drastically increased.

As to Elizabeth's comments above, Counterpoint was known for not being a real reliable product line. While many people loved the sound of these products, many also cursed them for all the problems that they brought with them. As far as amps go, i think that ARC's are the "king" of "spitting fire". Then again, ARC has probably sold more tube amps than any other manufacturer, so that could account for why we hear about them "putting on a fire & light show" more so than other brands. Sean
>

I made the switch to tubes quite awhile back, and I have found my tube gear to be just as reliable as my SS stuff. I have changed tubes, but not because any of them went bad. I just wanted to get better tubes for the sound quality. I have never had a tube go bad in any of my tube gear.

My amps have been self-biasing, so I don't have to fuss with that, and it is just as easy to use as any SS amp. I feel reliability of the tube gear I've had is not an issue.

I like the way tubes sound. That is why I bought McIntosh SS. Best of both worlds.