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People who are Irrationally Afraid of tube amps

Recently I've had a tube amp For Sale on this site. It's a well respected, great amp from a major mfg. I've owned it for 3 years, with absolutely no problems, only enjoyment. I'm only selling it because I sold the speakers I used it with, & my current speakers are a lot more power-hungry. And it's the 2nd tube amp I've owned, my first being a really early model VTL ST-85 that was several years old when I bought it, then I had it for 5 years, & the only problem I had in all that time was replacing a fuse once. And I know almost nothing about electronics, but I learned how to use a multi-meter & successfully biased & replaced tubes in both amps.

Here's the thing: Almost every person who has written to me about my amp for sale asks a zillion questions, you know the routine, e-mails back & forth, then finally says they are too freaked out at the possibility of replacing tubes someday to buy it, whining about the (relatively modest) expense, etc. (And my amp has new tubes!!). Now, these queries are from presumably experienced A'goners because most of them have a large no. of positive feedback ratings here. I mean, we're not dealing with the average shopper at Circuit City, presumably.

My questions are: 1. Why do experienced A'goners waste so much time shopping for tube gear if they're freaked out over the potential traumatic effect that replacing tubes may have on them someday? There's plenty of SS gear FS if that's what they want. 2. Why do many even relatively experienced audiophiles still believe in the "tube hassles" myth? 3. Are there no tube afficiandos who are willing to put up with a minor inconvience every few years?

I feel like putting a warning in the next ad I run for a tube amp: WARNING: THIS DEVICE CONTAINS HIGHLY VOLATILE "TUBES", WHICH MAY BLOW AT ANY SECOND & COULD DESTROY YOUR ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD! USE AT YOUR OWN PERIL, PREFERABLY IN A NON-POPULATED AREA. EVEN IF THEY DON'T KILL YOU, THE TRAUMA OF REPLACING THE "TUBES" SOMEDAY COULD REQUIRE YEARS OF PSYCHOTHERAPY, & MAY BANKRUPT YOU & YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY.

Well, at least that might discourage the "tire kickers". Now, if I could just afford those Cary 805C mono-blocs I've been wanting for years........& thanks for listening to my rant!
steveaudio

Showing 8 responses by tubegroover

tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
Nrchy -They're not watching, just glowing in your reflection :)

tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
"Except for a few audiophiles, transistors have replaced tubes. There must be a reason"

Except for most audiophiles, 1 out of 3 still use tubes. There must be a reason. Judging by many of the above responses and in other threads, it is fear. To those that have and prefer SS, isn't it great that we have choices? And to those that HAVE experienced a cutting edge tube design, the caveats really don't matter.
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
Elhartford No, I wouldn't necessarily describe tube users exclusively in the audiophile camp. There are many music lovers with tube based systems that wouldn't and couldn't be categorized as audiophiles by any measure. I would have included myself in that group 10 years ago. My response was to your statement at its face value.

You make some valid comments concerning tubes in general so far as you go. It is somehow assumed by many that SS is forever reliable which is just not the case. In fact SS gear can present the owner with very costly repair costs when components fail. I would only acknowledge that tube gear in most instances requires a greater degree of maintenance to retain its maximum performance than does SS but as JohnK notes, well designed tube gear does retain its value better and is more desirable on the used market than vintage SS.

If you want to talk about reliability, great design and performance check out the Berning zh270 as a current example. Output tubes that are auto biased and cost 5.00 each to replace and will probably last 20 years. Question, which is really cheaper long term when you look at all the factors of depreciation and maintenance? In my book the only reason for purchasing a ss amp over a tube amp would be performance, definitely not maintenance. It is a negligible consideration all things considered.
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
"70 watts at 2 percent distortion, with output impedance of 8.7 ohms, and all for a mere $4500. Sorry, I don't think my Maggies would like that"

Elhartford, first hand I wouldn't know but it is my understanding that David Berning was using one of his amps with Maggies and I have heard from others that it works quite well although it wouldn't seem so. You are quoting the spec for the low feedback setting, you would probably have to use the normal setting with Maggies.

I suppose if specs were the be all end all of what we hear, most well healed audiophiles would own Halcro amps, they don't and some suggest it has a "sterile" sound. Reminds me of the 30K Denon amps from 10 years back or so that I heard, extremely wide bandwidth with ultra low distortion specs which is how it was marketed. Bottom line is I hold very little value in specifications when listening, the design, application and end result is what really matters. While it is quite easy to hear the 2nd order harmonic distortions in many tube amps, there are other designs where this is less apparent. Tube amps definitely have their limitations in many applications without getting into the humongous beasts that require huge transformers, many tubes and costly maintenance but a viable choice for those that have difficult loads that would pass on SS.

I'm not knocking ss, I haven't heard them all and it is evident that they are improving and if they provide the magic of the illusion to those that listen, bravo, that is all that matters. I would love to hear a ss amp based system that provides the magic I have experienced from some of the great tube systems I have heard, I haven't to date, just good sound.

And Slappy, when you finally get around to tubes, which I am confident you will, just make sure it has a cover to keep that mischevous dog from temptation.
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
"What's the point of this amp if you can't use the low feedback configuration".

Elhartford my guess is that the low feedback setting may be problematic with the load of the Maggies, don't know for sure. The point of the amp is its flexibility into low impedance loads and the reason for the 3 settings. Most tube amps measure lousy compared to SS anyway and you seem to be hung up on the distortion measurements of the amp without the benefits it offers over conventional OTL's and transformer coupled amps which is its ability to operate into lower impedance loads as well as better bass definition, Into an 8 ohm load it measures almost to DC which is impressive in itself for a tube amp. I Hope to hear it someday driving the Maggies, I too am quite curious.

Allan Bhagan, a dealer for the Berning has a prototype pair running directly into the stators (no transformer on the speakers) of a pair of SoundLab M-3's which are more inefficient than the M-1's, maybe he can chime in?

I agree Sean, the Pass Labs amps are very nice. It seems Nelson Pass has a knack for designing amps that offer many of the better characteristics of tubes.
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
Eldartford

I didn't mean to come across as flip with the remark and yes, I think it is reasonable to be concerned about the distortion measurements but more reasonable to listen to the amp on its own terms without predjudice of how its measurements MIGHT affect its sound. This amp really can't be compared to other tube amps as Allan notes, it is too different in too many ways to really compare, the real surprise may be its performance relative to its poor measurements.
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
Eldartford if one is searching for true fidelity it is only in the concert hall. I do agree with you that most but not all tube designs STILL euphonize or bloat the sound at an absolute level when comparing to the real thing but I think there is a bit more to it. It is not just the tonality of instruments as you suggest but also the dynamic swings and fine low level nuance, the breathing of the instruments that help recreate the illusion. This is an area where tubes seem to excel over SS but as you rightly point out often with too much exaggeration of the harmonics. It can be fun listening but when you go to a concert and hear the real thing it is obvious that it isn't quite right.

My litmus test when listening is the piano which I find the most difficult instrument to reproduce accurately. Getting the harmonic overtones, natural tonality without the bloat along with realistic dynamic shifts and air around the notes without it becoming too full or too thin is tough for audio systems to get right. I spent 5 weeks listening to a highly regarded Class A OTL tube amp of comparable power in comparing directly with the zh270. Where both excelled was in that elusive presence area or ability to recreate the life and immediacy of the music. The Class A amp had an ability to get you more emotionally involved, richer harmonics. The Berning didn't have the fullness or the expanse of the soundstage but in most respects seemed more accurate. Which is better? It really depends on what one is trying to achieve, both were enjoyable but the Class A with zero feedback was probably more so, more of the goose bump factor which is not measurable unfortunately. Which one was more accurate and closer to the fidelity of the recording? The Berning without a doubt. It has to my ears the virtues of both SS and tubes with less of the limitations of either. It has the tonality, the presence and the immediacy. Some will still love traditional tube designs, myself included, for the sheer pleasure they give but now there is another choice, especially for those afraid of tubes
tubegroover
2,320 posts
 
Eldartford - Both you and Allan are correct, nothing comes remotely close to reproducing the realism of a living breathing piano, ahhh a Steinway Grand in the home, I envy you!

So far as good recordings and not necessarily performances, Nojima plays List and Nojima plays Ravel on RR are both excellent but probably a bit too reverberant as are most of Reference recordings but very good performances and sonics. I have the vinyl of both.

As best as I can tell "Fatha" on Realtime which is an M&K subsidiary is about as good (realistic) a piano sound as I have heard recorded. It is a direct to disc recording made in 1978 a year before Earl Hines died. A great performance as well and highly recommended, especially on vinyl if you can find it. If not, try the CD version which can be ordered directly from M&K (Miller Kreisel).

Another superb recording(s) but mediocre performances are the Wilson Recordings "Razzmatazz" by Mark P. Wetch. There are 3 volumes of some of Ragtimes great pieces performed on a modified upright grand. Very live, realistic piano sound. For further selections check out the thread "Amazing piano solos" under music. I use the Hines recording as a reference when evaluating gear. The dynamics are staggering and about as close to real as I have heard on a recording but still far short of your Steinway.

Here is the link http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?gmusi&984287002&read&3&4&
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