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Penafrips, MHDT Labs DACs versus Integrated amps for home office

Carrying this over from another discussion.  Apologies for being verbose, but...  I am on the hunt for DAC and amp combo with awesome sound quality and would appreciate any thoughts. I have a 10x10 ft home office, which I spend many work and after hours in. So, I have been trying to upgrade my sound, but am not able to invest gazilllions. I stream Tidal MQA and HiFi via USB from my MacbookPro using Tidal's app.  I listen via speaker, no headphone, no vinyl.  

I want wide & deep soundstage, clarity, and great sound at lower volumes. "3D soundstage", "holographic", etc.

Here's what I have so far. (amps will be in a bake off)
  • Canton Vento 830.2 speakers (very "revealing")
  • Peachtree Nova 300 integrated (with internal DAC)
  • Cambridge Audio Azur 851A integrated amp (but no internal DAC)
  • NuPrime IDA-8 with internal DAC

I love the Peachtree so far, but want to give the Cambridge a fair shot, which requires that I buy a DAC (less than a $1000-$1200 if possible). The loser of this bakeoff will be for sale as soon as I decide...

So, For DACs, after countless rabbit hole hours researching, I think that I have narrowed it down to the Penafrips Ares 2 (cannot afford the Pontus) and MHDT Istanbul (cannot afford the Orchid or Pagoda). Cannot afford the Chord QUTest either.   But open to suggestions!

I had also considered the RME ADI-2 DAC but I am afraid that it would be too sterile/harsh/fatiguing with my Canton speakers... (the NuPrime IDA-8 is awesome, but it was fatiguing and wimpy bass with my speakers unless turned up pretty loud). So, it is not a match, and I fear that the RME might be similar.  But who knows...

Hence my interest in the power supply of the Cambridge (class XD) to compare against the Peachtree's, as well as the Penafrips and MHDT hooked up to the Cambridge to compare with the Peachtree (class D) and its internal DAC.  Of course, I'd try one of the externals with the Peachtree just to compare... 

In summary, I want wide & deep soundstage, clarity, and great sound at lower volumes but will kick it up on occasion. "3D soundstage", "holographic", etc.  

Any comments and advice on this would be immensely helpful!  I am research fatigued...

Cheers!

bogbeat
19 responses Add your response
mesch
3,481 posts
 
Hopefully you will get the sub soon. Play with it and speaker placement prior to other decisions. 
bogbeat OP
46 posts
 
Thanks rocray.
rocray's avatar
rocray
1,448 posts
 
One thing you may want to experiment with to achieve that 3D holographic imaging,is speaker placement.  I don't know if you have tried that yet,but I've found speaker placement has a huge affect on imaging. Enjoy the journey!! 
sgordon1
425 posts
 
I have found the FOZ SS-X to be very sensitive
(responsive) to good cabling AND vibration control.
Addressing these, especially the latter, at possibly little cost,
is an option.

You might want to experiment with slightly different
speaker placement/angles, along with playiing with the
"expander" control of the SS-X.  Sometimes less is more!

Lastly, you can try different tubes in the SS-X.
I have had great results with the latest AU7 from Rachel at
Grant Fidelity.  Yes, a single tube is well worth $100!
bogbeat OP
46 posts
 
Thanks a lot yysantabarbara and jjss49. You all have given me some things to think about!

yysantabarbara, that Gustard X26 Pro DAC sounds very interesting.

jjss49, To your questions:  What I feel is lacking is the 3d/holographic soundstage.  I hear that tubes somewhere in the chain help with this.  Also, without the SS-X as a tube buffer, the sound is just too "harsh".  That is true for both sets of my speakers, with both my Peachtree and my Nuprime IDA-8 amps and their respective internal DACs.  Also, I cannot use the SS-X with the Nuprime as it lacks the "loop" capability.  So that will definitely get sold.   Currently, I have to have the SS-X mellowing the sound, or I cannot bear to listen for very long!  Periodic switching it on or off confirms this.

So I guess I could put it another way--if I was to invest in 1 or 2 pieces of equipment  (tube or otherwise) for now to get me closer to 3d/holographic and less "harshness"/have the biggest impact, what is you all's opinion on what that/they would be and in what priority to purchase?

And noted about the sub impact.  It is on backorder until June... Arghhh.

Thanks again everyone's thoughts on this.
jjss49's avatar
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jjss49
6,612 posts
 
op

you are comtemplating changing numerous components

best you clarify what you feel is lacking from the sound your system produces and what are the priorities for improvement

many ways to spend money to upgrade... need to know specifically where you want to go with it

finally, i would say that if you are integrating a good sub to support nice satellite speakers, you should get that done first, note the change and go from there... this move, done right, can be transformative
yyzsantabarbara
4,811 posts
 
The preamp and DAC on my NOVA 150 were the weak links from my tests. It was a good unit for the price but I did compare the preamp, DAC, and amp separately and it was clear to me that the amp section was much better.

I currently have a pretty good tube DAC, the AudioMirror Tubadour III SE which costs close to $3K. I like my half the price Gustard X26 Pro DAC more. It has NOS and OS mode with 3 custom filters that one can differentiate. I also like the Gustard more than my Benchmark DAC3B.

At the moment I am using a D-Sonic M3a 800s amp. It cost $1500 and it is real good. It is has a bit of warmth and is better than the amp section of the NOVA.

The Gustard X26 Pro + D-Sonic is a compete digital system. Though I would always add the Benchmark LA4 preamp ($2500).
bogbeat OP
46 posts
 

Hi everyone, 

Update and advice please on evolving my starter system.  I am trying to determine my next move…  Integrate tubes into the equation? New integrated? External DAC? Etc.

In terms of “impact”/bang for buck, any advice from you all on making a strategic investment(s). Your sage thoughts please, and any brands and models of equipment recommendations as well would be greatly appreciated. New, used, it is all good.

Budget is approx. $1500-$2500 for this project.

My system and environment currently after the bake off and a couple of additions.  Streaming, etc as in the OP.

  • Peachtree Nova 300 integrated amp & DAC
  • Black Ice FOZ SS-X Sound Stage Expander w/Amperex PQ 7316 AU7 tube.  (The FOZ SS-X is connected to the Peachtree using its awesome “Loop” function, and the FOZ AU7 tube adds some warmth/mellows the highs a bit, which has been a godsend)
  • Ascend Sierra 2ex speakers. (Also, dormant Canton Vento 830.2 speakers).  I am planning on keeping the Ascends for now.
  • Rythmik Audio L12 sub-woofer (coming soon)
  • 8’x10’ room (no room treatments as of yet) 


Some possible scenarios:

  • Add a tube pre-amp and continue to leverage Peachtree as DAC and power amp? E.g. Vincent SA-T7, Black Ice, Parasound, etc preamp?
  • Add a tube DAC to the equation and leverage existing Peachtree as pre and power amp? E.g. Denafrips, MHDT, Black Ice DACs
  • Use Peachtree as a pre-amp & DAC and add tube power amp?
  • Go tube integrated or hybrid integrated e.g. Black Ice F35, Rogue Sphinx v3, Vincent SV-237MK, etc.
  • Go with different solid state amp e.g. a Parasound HINT?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
bogbeat OP
46 posts
 
Thanks a lot mesch.  Looking forward to the journey! You sent me on a journey today with this Jolida/Black Ice thing.  Looks promising.  Just difficult to find out much about them. 

Side point: I saw on their website that Jolida is/was in Brookville, MD. and totally by cosmic chance I was apparently 3 minutes from them today visiting a relative of my wife's.  

Enjoying the journey, and everyone's discussion here.  Have a great evening.
mesch
3,481 posts
 
Jolida makes a DAC with tube output stage that is highly thought of. I believe it is within your budget. 

I might add that, once I had a system I enjoyed, I began the upgrade path with the digital source which made for significant improvement. Then I went for speakers. Now rethinking amplification. 

More than one way to get there. Enjoy the journey.
bogbeat OP
46 posts
 
I hope all of you had a great Thanksgiving!  I really appreciate all of the suggestions and discussion.  It is really helpful and educational. I am just getting into all of this, and clearly you all are a quite a few audio quality "revs" ahead of me, but you have given me some practical things to consider and components to aspire to!

I will try to address you all's comments.

My little home office is also my little sound cave, my guitar/studio room, etc.  And this stereo system is my primary system.  The HT system is basic and sufficient for the family upstairs. 

-- jjss49:
I agree my post is confusing.  Apologies.

  • Am I committed to the Cantons?  I'd say yes for a while until I can get some additional $$$ together.   So, I am looking for a DAC and amp to maximize the Cantons for now.  What I have bought so far is for a bake off...   
  • I was hoping that either the Cambridge or Peachtree and the Canton's will sustain me as my starter set with the addition of an external DAC to test with the Cambridge.  I would keep one of those setups for now and sell the other. The NuPrime is already up for sale... and will subsidize the DAC purchase to complete this bakeoff setup...
  • Budget? To pair with the Cambridge or Peachtree, I'd like to keep the DAC to under $1000, but if that is a waste, and $1200 brings me in a good sonic door, then I'd stretch to afford.  If you all advised me to scrap and start over,  I would sell everything and I'd say budget for amp & DAC is $2000-$2400 for now.   

  • Used ok?  Absolutely!  
-- mesch: 
Thanks very much for your questions to consider...  Hopefully my little bake off will help me answer these! RE: the MQA, In the scheme of things, I am not really concerned about that right now.  The Tidal software does some unpacking...

--big greg:
Thank you for your equipment suggestions.  I am tracking these used  now and aspiring! 
  • The Harbeths may be in my future... But cannot afford now.  But I now hear them whispering to me... (-:
  • MHDT Orchid.  Yes, one of my "stretch" DAC options. Ditto the Audio Mirror.  But the Denafrips Ares 2 may be fine.  The problem is I have to pick one, decide, and sell it if not a keeper. Which is a PITA and sucks for cash flow, especially around the holidays. 
Thanks again everyone for your patience and assistance in making my starter system the best it can be with the limited funds I that can allocate.

Have a great Sunday!
jjss49's avatar
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jjss49
6,612 posts
 
denafrips voicing is more treble-lively than mhdt or audio mirror or metrum

i found the ares 2 to have a sibilance issue similar to the bifrost mb ... went to pontus and the sibilance was much reduced, sounds much more natural... still denafrips dacs through their range (have had terminator too) are voiced with more treble energy than other dacs... so how well it works in one’s system is a function of component matching and one’s taste for what tonality

i think many harbeth users would like dena dacs as they provide that little bit of 'liveliness' and 'air' on the top end, something harbeths can use a little of to come alive
big_greg
6,623 posts
 
The Denafrips looks nice. The Harbeths and LM are amazing, but they're not going to polish a turd. The Bifrost sounds really good with my Simaudio 600i and Harbeth P3ESRs.
twoleftears's avatar
twoleftears
5,318 posts
 
That was the LM and the Harbeths you were hearing.  In your shoes I'd have gone for a Denafrips Ares ii.
big_greg
6,623 posts
 
The newest Bifrost 2. Don't get me wrong, I love the Orchid too and don't necessarily prefer one over the other. I use the DAC in that system a lot more and being able to just leave it on and not have to worry about wearing out tubes was part of my consideration for moving the Orchid into another system.
jjss49's avatar
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jjss49
6,612 posts
 
wow greg

a schiit bifrost pushed the mhdt orchid out of your system???

regular bifrost or mb?

i tried a bifrost mb found it sounded very round full organic but it had a sibilance that bothered me, i think the mhdt’s have a more natural presentation overall

btw - happy thanksgiving... 
big_greg
6,623 posts
 
Ignoring everything you have, if you'd like a nice inexpensive and great sounding office system, here are a couple of options for affordable (on the used market) and great sounding setups.

Vincent SV-237 integrated (solid state amp/tube preamp section - need to upgrade the tubes to get the most out of it)

OR

ARC Vsi-55 integrated (tubes)

MHDT Labs Orchid DAC

OR 

Schiit Bifrost 2

Harbeth P3ESR speakers

I owned the Peachtree Nova 300.  It's a great all arounder, but it's a bit rolled off on the top and will never give you the low level detail you're looking for.  It's very neutral and does a lot of things right, but will be bettered by either of the integrateds I mentioned.

I have the Canton 830.2 and their bigger and better brothers the Vento Reference 9.2 DC.  They are nice neutral speakers with a lot of bass for their form factor, but the Harbeths will give you more detail without sounding "bright" or fatiguing.  You'll hear things you never noticed with the Cantons.

As far as DACs, I really love the Orchid, it's a very "analog" sounding and easy to listen to DAC with good detail.  I recently bought a Schiit Bifrost 2 after hearing it in a friend's fairly high end system (Line Magnetic 805iA and Harbeth 40.2 speakers) and was completely blown away by how good it sounded.  It pushed the Orchid out of my computer system.


mesch
3,481 posts
 
To me the questions would be:

1st question:  How does the Peachtree compare to the NuPrime using the internal DAC? One must be better suited to ones tastes, system, and environment.

Then the next question question would be: How much improvement can one get from a less than $1200 DAC? 

Then which of the three amplifiers suit best using an external DAC?

That said, MQA is not on my radar and I don't know what makes a DAC MQA qualified. Let alone which DACs under issue are qualified. 


jjss49's avatar
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jjss49
6,612 posts
 
Here's what I have so far. (amps will be in a bake off)
  • Canton Vento 830.2 speakers (very "revealing")
  • Peachtree Nova 300 integrated (with internal DAC)
  • Cambridge Audio Azur 851A integrated amp (but no internal DAC)
  • NuPrime IDA-8 with internal DAC

your post is confusing -

are you committed to the speakers above and trying three integrated amps?  

are you asking for an amp recommendation, dac recommendation, speaker recommendation, or all of the above?

what is budget to spend?  new or used ok?
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