Pass Labs INT 60 VS. Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP VS. Arcam A49

You speculated on tube amps and Wilson speakers, setups you have not had the experience with and I have. Extensively. Even in science, one does the experiments to PROVE the result.  Your response  in this particular matter IS  speculation, because, according to those principles and physics, the WATT isn't a good match for tubes.
The REALITY, however,  is that Wilsons DO work with tubes. So, whatever principles and law of electrical engineering apply, they still do not negate the reality of the fact that Wilson speakers work with tubes. The "why" might be interesting, but if it works, it works. And they do. I'd expect them to be much easier to drive now than 30 years ago.

^"Speculation"?
I don't think that the principles of physics and electrical engineering can be merely disregarded as "speculation". Without the principles of which, this conversation probably wouldn't be happening.

Unsound, you’re probably right about manufacturers hedging their bets to make a sale, but, sorry, Dave states his thoughts on whatever amp the customer has, if he’s heard the amp. Or at least, he used to. I always found Dave to be quite honest, both in his estimation of his products and other manufacturers as well. So, what might apply to others (in your statement) cannot be applied to Dave.

 I didn’t ask Dave’s recommendation for an amplifier when I bought the WATTS. (I knew what he used to design the WATTS: Goldmund Studio turntable, Rowland Coherence 1, Spectral DMA-50/Rowland Model 7s, MIT cables. ) And I already had a Rowland Model 5 when I first got the WATTS. And then got VTL 300s, later adding the Goldmund Mimesis 9.

I use my own ears for listening, not the manufacturer's, and when HP wrote his review on the  original WATTS, I could only nod my head in agreement on every point he made, and he was using the Goldmund Mimesis 9 amp. Since I had both a Goldmund Mimesis 9 as well as VTL 300s, as well as the Rowland I didn’t have to "figure it out." All I had to do was listen, and, aside from the Mimesis’ phenomenal resolution and airiness, the VTLs - aside from resolution - revealed everything the Goldmund did, and were superior in bass power (which doesn’t mean that much to me, but it was obvious, so...). The Rowland was great, too, by the way.

(SOME) tube amps will work just fine with Wilsons, as will SOME solid state. Sonically, the VTLs had no problem with the WATTS (the most difficult of all Dave’s speakers to drive, especially the first generation WATTS), which I kept until the Series IV WATT/Puppies. And since I’ve had actual long term experience with tubes (VTL, Jadis, VAC and CJ (not such a great pairing), perhaps that can assist those interested in tubes.

The ONLY way to KNOW anything is to try it Everything else is sheer speculation, and speculation can cause more problems than almost any other factor.

I have had my Prima Luna HP with EL34's and 2 Mullard cv4003 as drivers and primaluna stock 12au7.  I have Aerial Acoustic 5T's.  

I auditioned it against Aerial 7t's.  If I ever purchase the 7T's I would be tempted to put in the KT150 tubes.  These have been well received for their tones in upper mid and then their stomping lows. 

Tube amps generate tone our ears appreciate.  That's why the best guitarist use tubes not SS.

I can sit and listen for hours each night and not get enough.  Nuf said. 



 

Unsound,
I’m not looking for another tube vs SS debate either. By now those number in the multiple hundreds. My point is that feedback from owners is significant and very valuable. Often times their actual experience with a product runs contrary to expectations based solely on test measurements. I see no rational reason to dismiss real life results because they violate preconceived beliefs.

No question good quality SS will work very well with the Sasha, actual listening encounters verify that certain tube amplifiers will not just "work" but succeed with stellar results. Bottom line  for me is that real world use/interactions takes precedence over measurements and test bench environments. Listening is the ultimate determining factor. 
Charles

OP, If you cannot demo both before purchase and from my experience with Wilson, get the Pass.   My brother has a Pass Labs INT 60 and is terrific.  It's more linear than most Pass class A models.  1st 30 watts Class A and weights 93 lbs, it's a beast!

I don’t doubt that some tube amps would do very well with this speaker. The ARC REF series would seem like good bets, for example, due to their combination of low output impedance (for a tube amp), robust power supplies, and other characteristics.

However, **if** the output impedance of the Dialogue Premium HP is not considerably lower than the output impedance of the non-HP version (as described in the Stereophile measurements I linked to earlier), and given the speaker’s impedance characteristics as shown in Stereophile’s measurements which Unsound linked to earlier (showing an impedance between 2 and 3 ohms for frequencies between about 60 Hz and 300 Hz, where a lot of music contains a lot of energy, while rising to considerably higher values in the mid-range and treble regions), the result of those impedance interactions **will** be weak bass and over-emphasized mids and highs, ***in comparison with the tonal balances that would result with many other tube amps and most solid state amps.*** The degree to which that effect on tonal balance occurs will be dependent on the output tap that is used and on whether triode or ultralinear mode is used. But it would be a significant effect in all of those cases (if, as I said, the amp’s output impedance is not considerably lower than that of the non-HP version).

That follows from basic EE circuit analysis principles, which of course cannot predict a lot about what we hear or don’t hear from our systems, but can certainly predict some things, including what I said in the preceding paragraph.

Whether or not the resulting sonics would be appealing to some listeners in some rooms is another matter, of course. But why take the risk, unless a meaningful and extended audition in familiar circumstances is possible? And even then, why invest the time that would be required for such an audition, when other candidates can always be found that would not have this issue?

And as Unsound said (rightly, IMO) in his recent posts:

What will work, and what will work best are different things.

When I make a short list, I begin by eliminating those that could be technically compromised....

Best regards,
-- Al

Kenepeters, The only integrated on your short list that actually specs being capable is the T&A. I'm confident that there are a few more. I believe Dan Dagastino'd integrated might qualify.
I haven't heard  all of the vast amount of amps on the market. When I make a short list, I begin by eliminating those that could be technically compromised, and then choose the ones from that list based upon what I just plain like, and of course price/value.

Oops, I meant to add..... We sometimes think that the greatest amount of care goes into show demonstrations, when in reality often times systems are cobbled together at the last minute from borrowing components from local dealers located near the shows.

Charles1dad,  I'm not trying to make this a tube vs. ss debate, even many ss integrateds would be challanged by the sub 2 Ohm load coupled with a difficult phase angle. 

Unsound, 
That's a fair point but I don't believe that Wilson would offer that advice in a generic manner for the sake of politeness and not wanting to offend. Given that they have used tube amplifiers during presentations and there's ample feedback from Shasha owners who've happily used tube amplifiers. 

I'm left to conclude that both tube and transistor power amplifiers can and have been used successfully.  As is always the case it is depends on what type of sound character and presentation a listener seeks. I'm well aware of the speaker's test measurements yet also recognize the very good outcomes attested to from the use of an appropriate tube amplifier in numerous systems. 

This and other forums are replete with experiences of happy Shasha/tube amplifier owners (and SS amplifier owners  as well).
Charles 

Unsound, thank you for your input. I only have space for an integrated amp and want to make the right decision. The Arcam A49 powered them very well, just looking for a change and something with even greater detail. I believe the Sasha's are 4 Ohm. 

That Wilson says it's ok, doesn't mean that much to me. Speaker manufacturers often say such things so as not to lose sales and embarrass their retailers. What will work, and what will work best are different things.

^^perhaps the Pass int 250 is up to the job?
Though there are a few intergrateds that can handle 2 Ohm loads, that kind of load is typically where separates are called into duty.
^That doesn't make sense to me, perhaps an explanation is in order.

I concur- gbmcleod

the Sasha and Sophia can handle a tubed power amp like ARC.
The way it was explained to me- if user enjoys electric guitar/electric bass-driven music, then, a robust SS power amp is the order on Wilson speakers.

TY- unsound.
It is hard to believe that Pass Labs cannot build an INT for 2-Ohms stable?

Wilson Audio representatives have told the OP that they believe the Primaluna Premium HP would be a good and suitable choice for the Shasha. I'd trust their assessment. I think that this would be a very natural sounding musical pairing. 
Charles 

I would disagree that using a tube amp with the Sashas is ’inappropriate.’
I had WATT/Puppies for 8 years, and used mostly tube amps with them, and this was back in 1987, when their impedance in the top octave dropped to 1.7 (not a huge difference than it is now, but still...). But for a more recent appraisal, one might want to read Art Dudley’s review in Stereophile, where he used Shindo monoblocks with the Sasha for the review and had no problems with them.
While I am sure solid state would handle the speakers more easily, Dave (Wilson) voiced no objective to my using tubes. This was when he and I were both California-based (his factory was in Novato, CA, about 30 minutes from San Francisco) and I was one of the earliest customers. From what I see, the Sasha now drops to 2 ohms. And one of the principals at the late Fi Magazine used tube amps with his WATTS as well. I heard no problems.

I understand the concern, but it’s not really verifiable without listening. Some tube amps will crash and burn, but certainly not ALL of them.
Why don’t you simply call Wilson Audio and just ask them if THEY have any objections if you ever want to acquire a Primaluna? They’ll tell you outright so you can at least continue to consider it or - if they object - remove it from consideration.

Deep down I really wanted the Primaluna Dialogue HP but ended up going with the T+A PA 2500R because I knew it was a sure bet, it has the power & warmth I wanted, even more than the Pass Labs. When I can save up I will also get Primaluna Dialogue HP for my other system. 

Jafant, did you notice that both Pass integrateds seemed challenged by 2 Ohm loads?

All this information and now a new amp choice came in to play, the T & A (Theory & Application) R2500 built on the HV platform which is close to the same price as the Pass Labs INT 60, but with more power. 

I am strongly considering a Pass Labs INT myself.

Thanks! for sharing- unsound

Even many ss integrateds might find the sub 2 Ohm load spec challenging. How ever the fairly high sensitivity might mitigate this concern somewhat depending on desired volume output in the given room.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-int-60-integrated-amplifier-measurements#ZWJzQw...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-labs-int-150-integrated-amplifier-measurements#I3P9vEMyi85oH...

alfa100 & leotis, I will only be able to get a demo Pass Labs INT 60, not the 150, I believe the INT 60 will perform fine with the Sasha 1, although now I have 400 watts (4 ohm) now. I had an Arcam before this with half the power & I was not happy with that. My main concern with the Pass Labs is the brightness with digital high rez files and Tidal. I have not heard this amp, just read excellent reviews. My turntable sounds great , especially with the tube phono stage (Manley Chinook). 

Pass integrated your best option with your speakers. Heard Wilson's with low power class A tube amp, sounded very good but lacked necessary power. Pass excellent amp and will outperform Arcam significantly. Best wishes.

I used Pass Labs Xa30.5 and now have Xa100.8 with my Sasha 1. I prefer SS with these speakers. You will be happy with the Pass Int 150.  

I have PL Dialogue HP Int and recently picked up Pass INT150 also.
Both sound wonderful. Am using the KT150 tubes because they power the Revel F206s better. With Mullard CV4003s also. Forced to choose, I suppose I prefer the musicality of the PrimaLuna setup. YMMV.

I love my primaluna. It replaced a YBA Designs integrated but the PL put it to shame. I agree you will have a hard time ending your listening session. My PL with EL34 tubes is nirvana.

OP-

at this level of performance, you must audition these amps prior to any purchase.  The Pass Labs, PL HP or Accuphase will drive your speakers- well.

Thank you for your input, for less than $280 (shipping) I can try out the Pass Labs INT 60, I know I will love it, just do not know if I will like it more than my Arcam A49 to justify the cost. I think the Primaluna Dialogue HP would be completely different, I have never had a tube amp before & it gets great reviews, but probably system dependent. 

I have always owned SS gear including a Pass XA-30.8.  The Pass was amazing.  I then sold it and purchased an HP int and sold it soon after because it did not sound "real" at all.  

Pass labs INT-60 is terrific.

It's encouraging that Wilson Audio themselves gave a strong reply in regard to the P.L.Premium HP and didn't attempt to steer you towards SS amplifiers exclusively. This is a very good endorsement from them as they're obviously  intimately familiar with the Sasha. 
Charles 

Kenepeters-

looks like you have plenty of information to digest here.

This recent Stereophile review on a speaker of equivalent retail price may have some value. The 2nd page mentions the HP able to produce satisfying performance against some upper end SS amps. Not the exact specs as your speakers, but more perspective on the HP which may be useful. 

http://www.stereophile.com/content/yg-acoustics-carmel-2-loudspeaker-0#GIFxXDoBW4Em47mP.97

All of the technical stuff mentioned along with end user worship of the HP won't replace an audition. I took a leap of faith and purchased one only because of owning a lower level model for several trouble free years. Fortunately, I  picked mine up before the MSRP increased! 

The dealer won't allow you to do an in home listening test??

Find a new dealer.

The Pass Labs dealer says the INT 60 will work tremendously with my Sasha 1's. He says there will be a huge difference from my Arcam A49. The Arcam A49 has the power and is very good and my Arcam dealer says I would need to spend over 13K to really make a difference. My Primiluna Dialogue PREMIUM HP dealer says this tube amp will better the Arcam and the Pass Labs & will work incredibly well with the Sasha's. Since I have to order the units I have no way to try them out with the Sasha's. Wilson Audio believes the Primaluna Dislogue PREMIUM HP would work very well, as well as the Arcam & the Pass Labs. 

The best comparison to the Prima Luna is the INT 30. I'm an ex tube freak who finds class A to be a bit sweeter if paired correctly. My Accuphase E600 is noticeably sweeter than any tube amp I've heard though my Harbeth's.

I own a number of amps all except one that I can think of are Tube Amps.  I am firmly committed to them but only with reasonable speakers .  I decide what reasonable is, somewhat arbitrarily .  If I owned Sashas, I would use solid state. 
That said I do own or I should say am trying to retrieve, two powerful tube amps.  A Jadis DA-60 with 8 KT-88 (Gold Lion), rated at 60 watts but that is not likely the true output which I believe is higher.  I also own a pair of Opera Consonance Cyber 800 monoblocks with 4X EH fat bottle 6CA7 each.  Rated at 78 watts. 
Still I wouldn't think they would be a good match , the Cyber 800s are truly exceptional for there pedigree, nonetheless, I just don't know?
Perhaps a cautious audition 
So to keep it related to this thread, I would choose the pass which I have heard and think is superb.

@almarg 

Thanks for correcting the link. For some reason I had a hard time posting it and did not know that it was not correct/working.

Cheers,

Scott

Scott, thanks for your inputs. Here is a corrected link to Mr. Potis’ review of the Carissa:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/artaudio2/carissa.html

Interestingly, it is described in the review as being a "no negative feedback" design, but having an output impedance of 1.2 ohms, which is on the low side for a zero negative feedback SET design. While at least in its present version it is described at the Art Audio UK site as incorporating 9 db of feedback, which is a substantial amount, that would tend to reduce output impedance significantly. Both references, however, indicate that maximum power capability has been sacrificed somewhat in order to "double available current" in comparison with traditional designs.

All of these indications (1.2 ohms output impedance, 9 db of feedback, doubled current capability) are consistent with low output impedance, certainly in comparison with most SET designs, and in comparison with JA’s measurements of the PL Dialogue Premium, and I suspect also in comparison with the PL Dialogue Premium HP. (I would assume that the reference to a 10 ohm output impedance that is provided at the Art Audio UK website refers to optimal load impedance, rather than to amplifier output impedance).

In contrast, the interaction of an "unusually high output impedance," such as Scott described for his former 60 watt tube integrated, and a speaker impedance that is low in the bass region and higher at other frequencies, will produce exactly the results he described ("very weak lower mids and bass"), compared to the results most well designed solid state amps (and many other tube amps) would have provided.

BTW, I was one of those who suggested caution regarding the Cary tube amplifier in the thread Charles referred to. I did note in my post in that thread, however, that the output impedance of the Cary amp was unspecified, as was the corresponding damping factor (damping factor and output impedance are inversely proportional), and that measurements of those parameters did not appear to be available.

Also BTW, in saying all of this I’ll add that like several of those who have posted above I personally am firmly in the category of being a fan of tube power amps. But I am also not a risk-taker when it comes to questionable pairings.

Best regards,
-- Al

John Potts as you say was a very good reviwer.  He had the ability to effectively discover and describe the essence of an audio component. I always enjoyed reading his work. I recall reading his reviews of Art Audio and Canary  amplifiers ago. 
Charles 

@charles1dad

It was a long time ago when I was just getting into the audiophile hobby thing (actually, I didn’t even know I was getting into it, I was just looking for a great sounding system).

I did just what I wouldn’t advise anyone to do. I bought it without hearing it. One of my favorite reviewers, the late John Potis, wrote an outstanding review on the the Art Audio Carissa. John was one of the best. He had a great ear and could describe the sound of gear beautifully.

http://http//www.6moons.com/audioreviews/artaudio2/carissa.html


Your right, it had a big stout power supply. The 60 watt integrated came from a very high end tube amp manufacture and should have had a great power supply and been outstanding as well. But it bit me in the backside hard.

The Carissa is one piece of gear I wish I could get back.

Cheers,

Scott

Sumac,
Yes, this is why I am such an advocate of the listening experience  (when possible). Very likely that the 16 watt SET amplifier has better quality power supply and output transformer than the 60 watt tube amplifier.  

Also very likely that the SET Art Audio would be considered a poor match for your speakers if judged solely on specifications. With the failure of the 60 watt amplifier what led you to try the subsequently sucessful SET? I happen to find measurements and specifications useful as a screening mechanism  but know they aren't capable of revealing the entire story as your experience confirms.  But you have to begin somewhere and listening isn't always an option before purchasing. 
Charles 

As almarg mentioned, the high output impedance of some tube amps is what would concern me. 

One one of my biggest audio disappointments was getting a 60 watt tube integrated that I came to find out had on unusually high output impedance. My speakers had 12" woofers and a low impedance of 3.2ohms. The amp could not do anything with that woofer. I had nothing but mids and highs and very weak lower mids and bass.

Now, I had a sixteen watt SET 845 tube amp from Art Audio that ran those same speakers beautifully; some of the best sound I have had. To this day I can't get the sound of that amp out of my head. It was fantastic and I wish I still had it.

I guess the takeaway from this would be try before you buy if you can. It could be fantastic or it could break your heart.

Cheers,

Scott

Kenepeters,
Earlier this year someone named orionpcgames who owns Sasha speakers had a similar thread. His dilemma was Pass Labs 250s or Cary 211c push pull tube amplifier. He ultimately chose the Carys and he was "ecstatic "(his word of description )) with the results. He was suitably cautioned about this choice but did so anyway.

He may have been as happy with the Pass Labs if he’d went that route (who knows?). Just an example of listening results that are contrary to well reasoned caution based on known specifications.
Good luck,
Charles

Kenepeters,
On paper I’d agree with those who strongly suggest a SS amplifier given the load characteristics of the Sasha. However there’s usually more to the story. Some speakers are designed with the expectation that they’ll be driven by a transistor amplifier.

Will you be able to hear either amplifier prior to buying? Listening to an amplifier paired with the speaker of choice will answer all questions. The P.L. Premium HP is noted for high level built quality and excellent transformers. As some others have posted here I also find tube power amplifiers "generally" sound more musical, natural and realistic (with a suitable speaker match). My gut leans towards the Primaluna (Particularly with the KT 150 tubes). Without an audition the Sasha’s specifications suggest the Pass Labs amp the safer bet. Anecdotally I've heard the larger Wilson speakers with tube amplifiers and the sound was very good. 
Charles