Pass Labs “House Sound” vs. McIntosh “House Sound”
I’m contemplating swapping out my McIntosh C2500 for a Pass Labs XP-20. I’ve searched the forums for posts on the Pass Labs XP-20, being that it was released quite some time ago, I didn’t find too much referencing the sound characteristics. Read plenty of reviews, but those, as we all know, are often full of audio journalistic color. Any one able to comment on the Pass Labs “house sound”, per se? Possibly what trade offs happen when migrating from McIntosh preamps.
there are more Pass Labs sold than Ayre and Luxman combined so lots of people got bad ears.
I've never said people who buy Pass have bad ears, but I am not obligated to agree with their tastes, any more than anyone else should buy something because I happen to like it.
The buyer's hearing, speakers and room should trump everything. If you can't shrug off all the PR and punditry, your wallet and hobby will be a slave to popular opinion.
I don’t always agree with Erik’s posts, but his last post above is great advice.
Buying audio gear requires two main things: time and money. If you really want audio quality you have to spend both. Sure, you can quickly spend $10,000 on a component with little personal audition and just rely on a few comments on an anonymous Internet forum, but you might risk wasting real money while enduring poorly matched sound quality. Doing a lot of reading on several forums and doing as much actual listening as possible can get you across the finish line but it takes effort. I think the worst word in audio is “always”. System matching is real. Room differences are real. And individual sound preferences (which can be very difficult to put into words) are real.
Buying some kit used is helpful as you can almost sell pieces for what you paid if you want to try something else. Auditioning one component in a professional dealership sound room with matching components that are way above your budget might not match your system in your room at home. It just takes time and effort. That is why treating this a long term hobby helps: the hunt becomes part of the fun...
I found out by asking on Audio Aficionado McIntosh Forum. Everyone including Lew who is the head honcho of the group and longtime McIntosh dealer stated as such. I’m not trying to rain on your parade but didn’t want to see you disappointed if you found out after purchase. Like I said, on my MA6600 integrated I use the balanced in and it sounds great. I tried it once on my C2500 but I had problems with one of the cables so I went to single ended.
Shannere, I have never owned a Pass, nor an Ayre. I’ve never tried to steer anyone away from either of those brands, which is not the same as saying I don’t like some more than others, I do. Rather, I post amps which to my ears sound pretty different.
I’ve not heard Mc in a very very long time, and not for any period of time, unlike Pass, Luxman and Ayre, which I’ve been fortunate enough to audition for a few hours here and there.
It makes no difference to me if some one buys Pass or Mc, but generally speaking, I do recommend listeners in the price range try a triad:
Pass
Luxman
Ayre
I recommend these exactly because they sound significantly different from each other. I think listeners will immediately develop such a strong preference that nothing I could type would change their mind. especially if they listen with their own speakers, which they should.
In answering the OP’s question, I could not comment on Mc, and didn’t want to comment on Pass, but I felt if the OP listened across these three, he’d have a better feel for the house sound of Pass, and I’m always curious what people think and what they listen to with them.
If I actually tried to steer someone away from Pass it would read very different.
If Pass sounds the best, then no one should worry that listeners go any other way, but I do not believe in absolute truths, and that may annoy the Pass-is-Best camp. You will see my sincere apology to them in a future posting. Please wait for it with bated breath.
I see you are going to used balanced on the C2700. The C2700 is not a truly balanced preamp, only the top of the line 2 chassis C1100 McIntosh is truly balanced.. With that in mind, I use balanced on my McIntosh integrated and I feel it sounds a little better than the RCA input.
Eric did you ever own a Pass or Ayre? Every time someone mentions Pass you try to steer them away in reality there are more Pass Labs sold than Ayre and Luxman combined so lots of people got bad ears.
My combo (BHK Pre-Firstwatt J2) sounds great with jazz and classic rock. However, with modern, more electronic music, a little muffled. I'm thinking a c2700 with a Pass XA.30 or another SS amp of theirs that use balanced connections. I was told the Pass SS amps will be much more snappy and dynamic vs the J2.
Been on a steady upgrade path. Currently have a Linn Majik DSM (with amp and volume control turned off, Pass Labs XP-20, Pass Labs XA30.8 feeding into Spendor D9s. Fanatasitc sound...
I don’t own any of the gear that was originally posted with this, other than the DEQX Premate. I did settle on the XP-20 and it did have a little more detail vs. the McIntosh. But, since then, I sold off the PS Audio amps, and picked up a set of XA60.5’s. I sold the Dynaudio’s and bought a set of Harbeth Super HL5+’s. Upgraded the DirectStream Jr to a DirectStream and picked up an Aurender N100H. I spent about 3 or 4 months A/Bing with and without the XP-20. To me, it sounded better without the XP-20 in the chain. So, now, I run no preamp, it’s just direct out of the DirectStream into the XA60.5’s.
@tzh21y I haven't listened to the MC275's in proper environment. I don't call listening to them under powering a pair of Sonus Faber's at Best Buy an accurate assessment, which that's the only place I've ever really heard them.
@rost it’s preowned, so I don’t think I’ll need the 500 hours of break in! But, I appreciate your comments and am super pumped to get it integrated. The C2500 was the longest standing piece of my ever revolving/evolving gear setup. Like a well loved family pet that has since passed, “You are gone, but not forgotten!”
I´ve not heard the mcintosh but have had the xp20 for some years now and also the same c4s you own. My experience is that most of the time break in is crucial, more so for this preamp. Out of the box the sound was closed in ,dull and lifeless. So much so, that I felt I had made a mistake in upgrading ? from the pass xp1 after having achieved the performance I was already satisfied with. But being forewarned by the dealer I reluctantly exercised patience and after what I believe to be several hundred hours ( the dealer advised 500 !) the sound opened up beautifully and have been content ever since. In fact it may be the only piece of equipment that I´ve never felt the urge to change. At least until now and it has been with me for more than 5 years. The xp20 is a fine piece of equipment, dead quiet, with few if any rivals within its price range.
I've never heard a Pass Labs but I might comment on McIntosh. McIntosh's 'house-sound' might best be described as exceptionally smooth with a wide soundstage yet not too forward. McIntosh has excellent build quality, resale value and often understated fact that all of their component visually match in terms of color scheme. Nothing like having a full rack of matching gear. Personally I don't care about those features and I've found other gear that sounds better to my personal tastes. McIntosh is like the Apple of audiophile gear, well built and respected but not doing anything extraordinary. An excellent well-rounded setup could include a Pass Labs X25, Schiit Yaggi DAC, and your choice of tube preamp (my preference would be Prima Luna premium or Conrad Johnson classic depending on budget).
I own a Pass Labs X 250 for LR Focal floorstanding speakers a X260.5 for my center channel and large Focal Rear speakers that I Run with my X5. I know that your are asking about A Pass Labs XP 20 however In my opinion McIntosh does not come close to the build quality and sound reproduction of almost anything Pass Labs makes. Pass Labs CS is the best they STAND behind what they sell My AV is a Krell 707
If the analog jumpers are set for too high an output the symptom would be distortion, not hum, and only when the combination of the volume of the music and the setting of the DEQX’s volume control is too high.
I assume that you don’t have the analog main outputs of the DEQX disabled in the configuration, and that you disconnected the XLR cables from the amps when you connected the RCA cables.
Beyond that, I see the following statement on page 160 of the latest version of the DEQX manual, regarding the 75 ohm specification of the output impedance of the unbalanced analog outputs:
[The unbalanced analog output impedance is 75 ohms] into an earth-referenced amplifier i.e. one where the RCA ground pin connects to mains ground. This is normally the case. The precise output impedance is 75 ohms, plus 75 ohms in parallel with whatever the amplifier puts in series between its RCA connector and mains ground. If the latter is open, then the impedance can be as high as 150 ohms (such as may happen with a two-pin power connector).
I’m not quite sure what to make of that, but perhaps there is some kind of incompatibility between the internal grounding schemes of the DEQX and the amps. Which in turn may only manifest itself when unbalanced interconnections are used between the two components, since balanced receiver circuits can be designed (and ideally should be designed) to ignore ground.
@almarg I do use the DEQX volume control for the sub. I put in a set of RCA's, but just get AC hum. I unplugged the unit, let it sit for about 10 minutes, then plugged back in and turned on...same result. Read through the manual, I didn't see anything that indicated one needed to select an output, other than the analog, analog/digital pulldown. Switched between those, same result. Possibly, the analog jumpers are set to high?
I’m going RCA/sub preout from the DEQX into the REL.
OK. So presumably you are using the volume control of the DEQX to change volume, rather than the one in the preamp.
Assuming that is the case I would reiterate my suggestion of trying an unbalanced connection of the DEQX directly to the power amps. Given the experience I mentioned earlier that was reported to me by another member (who also used a Premate), it seems very conceivable that you might obtain better results that way than with the balanced interconnection I assume you tried previously. And if so, perhaps you can eliminate both the DAC and the preamp altogether.
BTW, I use the unbalanced analog outputs of my HDP-5 directly into my power amp. I’ve never tried its balanced analog outputs, as neither of the power amps I presently have provide balanced inputs.
@toddcowles Congratulations on the XP-20 purchase. Though I don’t have direct experience with your McIntosh preamp, I believe you will find your system ’sound’ with your new Pass Preamp in it will be different than with the McIntosh Preamp. This is based on my hearing of the ’general’ Pass and McIntosh ’house sounds.’ Do share your findings with the Pass pre and any differences / preferences between the two preamps.
I have the XP-20 and am very happy with it. Isolation did help, but it wasn’t as major of a factor as with some of my other components. Pass strongly recommends keeping the factory supplied power supply umbilical. I do have an aftermarket pc into the Power Supply..... Pass doesn’t feel a great need for one and I generally, but not totally, agree (with their assessment with respect to the power supply).
Also, could you clarify your statement that "I’m using the RCA sub preout into the REL." As far as I can see the C2500 does not provide a single-channel sub-out, and the REL only accepts a single channel for its line-level input.
Funny! I, too, was actually biased and skeptical about PS Audio gear, just because the "marketing" feel of the brand just was off-putting to me. But I saw that a dealer for my same speakers really loved the match of the 300 Mono's in his system, so I decided to try them, and I am more than glad that I did. They are a fabulous match and fabulous amps for the money, IME.
I'll be curious to hear your evaluation of the Pass preamp once you've had a chance to take its measure fully. I am actually contemplating trying out their phono preamp. Please report what you find some time!
@jbrrp1 thanks for the input. You are 100% correct, their equipment does deliver and the industry needs more folks like Paul and his employees running these audio companies. I've attempted to not like their equipment, rather, initially I attempted to be very biased. Having lived in Colorado, it was super easy for me to demo. Once the monoblocks were hooked up, there was no turning back. Same happened with the DSJ.
I had spent about 2 weeks with the BHK pre, I did like it. I'll admit, it took me a few days to get used to it. In the end, the lack of tone controls prevented me from swapping out my C2500 for it. In my previous listening room with sound treatment, the speakers just didn't have enough room to breath and produced awkward "slurring/sibilance" scenarios. We've since moved and the odd ball higher frequencies are no longer present. At that time, I had to tone them down with a few notches of treble. I figure if the road does lead to the BHK pre, I won't have much of an issue selling the Pass Labs. With the DEQX, I have way more control over the sound than anyone could ever really need or want. Due to this, the lack of tone controls on both the BHK and Pass Labs won't be an issue.
I pulled the trigger on the Pass Labs, I'll see how I like it and if not, I'll pick up the BHK pre.
I would strongly suggest you consider the PS Audio BHK Sig preamp, too. You run the 300 mono's and the DSJ DAC, so you know their equipment delivers. I really like that preamp with my 300 mono's. It sure is worth a try, and a demo wouldn't be too hard to come by.
@almarg Thanks Al! That’s a great thread. Correct in my signal chain. I’ll swap out to RCA’s, see if that alters. I do believe I may be approaching the point where an additional sub will have to be deployed, right now I just have 1.
I’m using the RCA sub preout into the REL. Interestingly, REL is imparting their filtering philosophy across all inputs, which made it a bit of a challenge to tame it with the DEQX. There’s a massive spike at 50hz, stretching about 6db down to 30hz and 6db down to 80hz, which revealed itself when Larry/DEQXpert was comparing phasing and room measurements. In light of this, I’ve been debating on replacing the REL as well.
I do have a REL sub, which is blended quite well into the overall
presentation/soundstage, but I often think I’m missing some 200hz and
below or it’s getting sucked out of the source material.
Hi Todd,
If I understand correctly the chain you are using is:
Also, I'm wondering where and how the
REL R-528SE
sub is connected. Specifically, if you are connecting it at speaker level what is the black wire in the Speakon cable connected to, which can be an issue given both that the amps are monoblocks and I believe also have differentially balanced outputs? And if you are connecting the sub at line-level, given that the sub only provides a line-level input for one channel how are the two channels being summed together?
Also, regarding the experiment you conducted with the C2500 and the DSJ removed from the chain, findings that were reported to me privately by one of the other members who participated in the "Is DEQX A Game-Changer" thread, who like you used a Premate, suggest to me the possibility that the Premate's unbalanced analog outputs **might** be sonically superior to its balanced analog outputs. So assuming (as appears likely) that your experiment was conducted using the Premate's balanced outputs it might be worthwhile repeating it using the unbalanced outputs.
@stereo5 That question cuts deep! I do like the C2500, 85% of the time. On most of the music I listen to, it is a pretty full sound, so to speak. I often wondered if I was missing out on some lower end energy and details in other ranges.
I do have a REL sub, which is blended quite well into the overall presentation/soundstage, but I often think I’m missing some 200hz and below or it’s getting sucked out of the source material. I’ve sent the room response curves off to GIK, which they provided room analysis on a different room and recommendations for treatment. I used the same panels, in the same locations. GIK didn’t identify anything that could be treated, as the room responded ideally to the current panel setup.
I’ve made adjustments to the DEQX, with a little bit of success. In all, actually, there’s nothing wrong with the C2500 and I have nothing but positives to share regarding it. If anything, it’s me tricking myself into believing I’m missing something. That, and like many in this industry as a hobbyist, we like to fiddle, tinker and experience our music in new ways.
From a listening perspective, I’ve always gravitated towards less colorization, give it to me as it was recorded. I prefer to hear all the details.
@unsound I did pull the C2500 out of the chain, along with my Direct Stream Jr. The DEQX DAC, not bad at all, but it’s a little too digital sounding, to my ears. I also believe I failed to mention I use the DSJ as my DAC. I also got out of the vinyl game about a year ago, so I have no requirement for a phono stage.
I myself have the C2500 preamp and after having 4 other tubed preamps, this one is definitely the keeper. I have never heard a solid state preamp that I could live with for a long period of time. Are you willing to give up the tone controls and the ability to change phono cartridge loading on the fly from the remote? I know I couldn't and wouldn't. I don't know how it will sound with a Pass. Although this isn't the same thing, I tried the C2500 with a Conrad Johnson 250wpc solid state amp, the sound became slow and syrupy. What is it about the sound of the C2500 that you don't like or wish to improve?
As @ebm pointed out they both has different ‘house’ sound. If you’re looking for a departure from tubes, XP-20 is a great choice. I would also consider audiotioning BHK Signature Preamplifier.
One word of caution, I wouldn’t get rid of C-2500 until you had a chance to audition either of these solid state preamplifiers. I used to own C-2500 with Telefunken NOS tubes and couldn’t make a switch to SS preamp. I end up swapping my C-2500 for ARC LS28.
BTW, very nice system and good luck with your search!
I have a set of the PS Audio BHK300 monoblocks, which are driving a set of Dynaudio Confidence C4 Signatures. I also have a DEQX Premate for Speaker/Room correction. All of my power cables are Shunyata Research and interconnects are Audioquest Colorado XLRs.
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