Paradigm Persona series

Can anyone expound a bit on what the "vibration-cancelling" rear bass drivers are doing beside working for an inert cabinet which doesn't resonate and color the sound?  Is that all they're doing?

@contuzzi, Classical music has alot of metallic shrill sustained high frequency information particularly during loud complex orchestral crescendos that I don’t find present to the same degree in the tiny bit of jazz I listen to. Those are the only two "types" of music I listen to. Those instruments in classical music actually should sound shrill normally but when the speakers overemphasize that part of the frequency spectrum it becomes a problem with that music. I don’t notice it that much with other music I listen to, i.e. various types of jazz but jazz makes maybe 10% of what listen to, and classical 90%. With regard to my "positioning ability" I did and do find them a bit tricky and requiring nowhere near Paradigm's recommended toe-in in my room to get good focus on individual instruments and voices. I would guess less toe-in also helps mitigate the brightness.  When I run the ARC room correction on these speakers I also set the high pass filter at the 350 hz setting and increase the overall level of the bass 1.5db and that helps warm them up a little bit. There’s no question that the speakers in my space are incredibly holographic. Still there’s an aspect of the sound on classical that I would say is more clinical than romantic/involving. And can we give ad hominem criticism a rest folks and just talk about our experience with the speakers? Your experience may be different than mine...that’s not only fine, it’s why I started the thread.

Anyone know where I could audition the 9H in the SF Bay Area? The local dealers won't stock it. Too expensive, they say. In SF? Really?

The 9H isn't that hard to get right in a room at all.  The 3F, 5F, and B are a little harder.  Nothing unusual though.  Not sure what pwhinson is talking about.  He also said that they can sound bright on classical recordings but nothing else, which makes no sense at all, and makes me question his set up abilities.

steve59 we have a $7,500.00 integrated amp which includes a dac which drives the 9H to perfection. It is a tube amp.

This amplifier is one of the best we have found for an affordable solution to making the Personas have that bit of warmth that will make them sound alive and just gives them  that extra dose of tube body that the speakers crave.

Synthesis A 100T http://synthesis.co.it/product.php?id=32

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Sythesis audio dealers

Post your findings. The review of the personas all come with high praises yet always a disclaimer attached. I could swing a pair of 9h during the sale, but it would pretty much end my shopping days forever more. That my room can make most every speaker I bring home sound like a eunuch makes these appealing, but soo much money for a speaker that requires such precision to work as intended doesn't sound like a good choice for someone who can't afford to get it wrong.

How do the Persona owners have their jumpers set up? Speakers cables on the mids or the bass?
I am going to play around this weekend and see if their is an appreciable difference on the 5f’s

It looks looks the discount has been extended

I agree on the high resolution at lower volumes in addition to moderate volume levels and the holographic sound stage but I did find that the latter was a little problematic to achieve.  My experience was that only a very small of toe in provides the necessary separation but when you get it right you do get very good image localization but its tricky.  I have my own theory about it but I imagine it involves the dispersion characteristics of the speaker and I'm also wondering if that's what's troubling me a tiny bit.  I also think it would be less of a problem the farther you can get these speakers away from side wall reflections.  They might sound best along a long wall in a LARGE rectangular room, with only slight toe-in....my suspicion is that's what would make them really sing.  I do have a wierd room, not that it's small but its got an elevator shaft coming up into the room offset from the side wall (with a stairwell between the elevator and that side of the house).  You guys that have them that love them, whats your experience in dialing them in...distance ratios between speakers and then speaker to listening position, how much toe-in, etc?  What did you find works for you?

I have Persona Bs in both of my apartments.  One pair being driven by a Cambridge CXR-200 and the other being driven by a Lyngdorf MP-50 with a Burmester (soon to be Plinius Reference A 300) amp.

One of my favorite things about the Personas is the detail and dynamics it retains at lower listening levels in both setups.  I have excellent hearing (tested) and wish to retain it as I age.  

I've owned high end tapped horns which were the most dynamic speakers I've had and the Persona's rival them but with sharper detail and attack.  

I've heard the 3f and the 9H at the Audio Doctor as well.  The Personas are truly special speakers, almost spooky how detailed and holographic they can sound.  People liking a warm house sound need not apply however.

I went with the Persona B's because of my small spaces and also I am a sub guy all of the way.

***btw, I did not buy my Personas from the Audio Doctor but I did buy my Polymer Audio speakers from them - the best speakers I've owned.  It's too bad they are packed away now due to not going with my living room decor.  As this is my first post on this forum I don't want anyone thinking I'm shilling.  

Proud owner of the extreme speaker cables.  Been trying to get on their website for a few days but it's down.
Anyone know anything?

pwhinson
PM sent.

The Isoacoustics footers replace the stock footers the difference in height is negligible the sonic improvement is vastly better.

Also the 96db efficiency is what is causing you to be aware of the noise more than an 86db efficient loudspeaker.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona and Isoacoustics dealers

With regard to the idea of an isolation platform I would also just point out that I'm not sure it would be desirable to raise the height of the speaker.  At my seated position my ears about 3'6" from the floor whereas the Paradigm tweeter is already significantly higher than that at about 4"1" above floor level.  That's not a problem due to the tweeter's dispersion characteristics but I'm not sure you really want to raise the level of those drivers any higher.

Yes, there is some noise from the speakers, but nothing too serious. Personas 9Hs at 96db sensitivity, I think it is inevitable.
At the other hand, Thiel CS2.4 at 87db and 4 ohm impedance, are not the most obvious choice for a SET Amp IMO.

Those of you who have paired SET electronics with the 9H, is tube rush an issue for you?  The reason I'm asking is that oddly there was NO audible tube rush when running my Aesthetix Janus or my Aesthetix Calypso (yes I have both) yet with the 9H, there is very audible tube rush at about 3 feet away from the speaker or closer.  To be frank it doesn't really bother me but its is very curious to me that when I switch in the Thiel 2.4's theres NO audible tube rush.  Any thoughts?

Nabcs, the issue with Townshend is that they would be very difficult to demo there are very few Townshend dealers in the USA vs Isoacoustics which are much easier to demo also the Townshend are way more expensive than $1,200.00 for both speakers for the Isoacoustics aren't they? 

Which one is more effective we don't know, the Isoacoustics stuff is great and we have yet to have a client ever not comment that they heard a meaningfull difference after getting a set.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Isoacoustics and Persona dealers

If you have the chance, please try Townshend Seismic Isolation Podium.
Very effective isolation and give a even more premium look to the speakers.

Gene Isoacoustics makes adapters that work with the Persona we have both are 3F and the 9H with the footers and each set made a signifigent improvement in the sound. 

Contuzzi the footers absolutely make a difference on all loudspeakers including very inert ones.

The footers stop side to side motion and cordinate the speakers with the movement of the cones in that plane only. 

Isoacoustics website shows testing documentation which proves the product does indeed work.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Isoacoustics and Persona dealers

@audiotroy 

How do you pair the footers of the Gaia's or others to the large threaded inserts on the Persona's? 

Everything is system dependent. The Audience where a nice match for my previous Magico S3   The Personas in my room where a little on the bright side. I didn’t give them much time and if I let the Personas break in they probably would have been fine. 
I  really like the Cerious Matrix. Bob made me a sweet pair of jumpers that really helped the overall presentation. 
Audience makes good stuff as I went up the ladder from E, SE,SX. 
Still have a few of their power cords in the loom. 
Now  I am looking to integrate a sub with the 5fs. The bass is pretty good but folks say a good sub will open up the whole system. Looking for something with some kind of room correction. Always chasing. : )

benzman, I changed my cables from Kubala Elation to Audience Au24 SX, because I thought the sound was more natural with Audience, and I didn´t find the sound thin.

But with the new Arc Genesis software probably we can add a little more body to the upper bass.

contuzzi290 posts02-27-2019 1:59pmI can see how a wood floor or sub floor would still allow a benefit from isolation now that you say it. I’m on concrete.

>>>>As fate would have it the concrete floor is also moving, slightly perhaps, mostly in the vertical direction, by virtue of the fact that very powerful seismic forces, e.g. subways, Earth crust motion, traffic, cause the entire building to vibrate. Think of it like shaking out a rug. Thus, vibration isolation is effective even for system on concrete slabs.

@pwhinson  My musical tastes run through a wide selection. I go through periods of listening to certain types of music. A few months ago it was heavy metal, at the moment it is a lot of 70's Soul and R&B. I have not had too many classical music periods lately but I do enjoy classical. I really like anything that gets my legs tapping.

A few things I value in a speaker are:
-  the ability to hear the details in a recording 
- the ability to visualize the 'live" musical performance if I close my eyes 
- a coherent sound where the drivers sound as 1 source 
- speakers disappear

As I mentioned in the prior posts my favorites speakers to do these things are:

Thiel CS 3.7 (unfortunately Thiel is no more)
Persona 5F (only model I have heard)
Kef Blade  (my favorite, no need to close eyes with this one)

I am very happy to read the posts by the Persona 9H owners here who are describing how their speakers sound after break-in. That type of sound is what I am after, though it will be with the 3F in a very small room.

Funny in my system I sold my Au24SX interconnects and speaker wire when I bought the 5F's . Just way to lean.

I can see how a wood floor or sub floor would still allow a benefit from isolation now that you say it.  I’m on concrete.  

I use Townshend Seismic Isolation Podium with great effect.
Speaker and interconnect cables are Audience Au24 SX.

"No need for any kind of “tuning footers” or anything like that. If they’re sounding bright, you need to get them positioned properly and acoustically treat your room. Things like ISO acoustic Gaia’s are nice and all, it the higher end more inert speakers like Personas don’t benefit from them much if at all."

Sorry I was not talking about brightness. That was gone with break in and a cable change. I sure nobody is using the rubber feet that come with. The Combak Harmonix 909 tuning footers takes these speakers to a new level in my system. I am on a crawl space with hardwood flooring and maybe it is just my floor but they do an amazing job of tightening up the bass and improving the focus of the midrange while taking the tweeters to a new level of delicacy.     

Benzman is right...Persona 9H need at least 300h of burn in. When I received my Personas 9Hs the mids were a little congested and highs a little hot. But after 3 months the improvement was amazing!
I do not listen to classical music, but jazz and alternative indie rock, and now the sound is scary real ... the singers are in the room performing for me. I drive the 9Hs with a SET Amp (845 tubes...50 wats Class A), and maybe this amplifier adds the natural warmth the speakers need, I do not know.

@yyzsantabarbara What kind of music do you listen to?  Classical, jazz? pop?

No need for any kind of “tuning footers” or anything like that. If they’re sounding bright, you need to get them positioned properly and acoustically treat your room. Things like ISO acoustic Gaia’s are nice and all, it the higher end more inert speakers like Personas don’t benefit from them much if at all.

Raising them off the ground a little would have the same effect. Any kind of “mod” to a Persona is completely unnecessary.

Nice review. Unfortunately 4 days are certainly not long enough for proper break in. I am assuming they where new?  The Personas need 300 hrs per Paradigm and I can attest this to be true. 
Beryllium takes a long time to settle. I would like to see measurements 6 mos later.  
The owners are the only folks who know how good these speakers can be.  And yes with their fantastic transparency the addition of tuning footers, the changes in cabling has a tremendous change on the speaker.  Little bit of work but well worth it in the long run. 

Who wants to buy a speaker and HAVE to buy footers, new cables, dac's, server's, power systems.....this is a joke! Just unbelievable how audiotroy has to self promote. 

Pwinson, didn't realize I was talking with you the other day here is our coaching for you. 

You would be silly not to jump on the 9H now during the sale. What you are dealing with is a topic near and dear to our hearts which is product tuning.

 No loudspeaker on the market at any price will be perfect to a listener and trying to duplicate the sonic fingerprint of your Thiel is not possible, as they were unique designs the same as a Rockport or a Wilson of a Focal etc and the Personas are superior speakers to your Thiels not to mention that Thiel is out of business it is a great idea to upgrade to a more modern design from a company that is in business. 

As I mentioned to you, sold Thiels for three years and personally knew Kathy and Jim. 

The people on this forum would have you believe that the "issues" you have with the Personas are due to their frequency abberititions  and you have to be stuck with them. 

The reality is we too have seen the heaven and hell of this design, the heaven is that the speakers are totally tranparent, fast, articulate and sometimes spooky how real they can sound. 

The hell particularly with the 9H is that they can still sound a bit cool and lacking a bit of warmth in the midrange which imparts a slightly sterile quality to the upper midrange, which is what we think you are not liking.

If you contact Fast, or read the threads we participated in in regards to his Kef Ref 5, you will see that we applied a series of fixes to his system which made his Kef Ref 5's come alive. 

These included adding footers to the speakers, a change in interconnects, ethernet cable and usb cabling, a change in music server, adding a power conditioner, changing his dac, adding power cables, and finally a room tuning product, along with reposoitioning his loudspeakers.

The end result of all of this in our opinion his newly tweeked up and augmented setup outperformed a local audio retailors $300k plus setup,

Fast's setup had really old 20+ year old ARC gear, and the speaker cables were not changeable as they were run under the floor,  the result of adding a better dac, $6k, a new server $3.4k cabling $6k for the interconnects, $700 usb, $210 ethernet cabling, footers $1,200.00  $4k room tuning Stein Harmonizers, $5k power conditioning, and $4k power cords

Yes all of those parts when added up would not be cheapie additions the point of this story is that even with all of these parts added and a retunning of the speakers in the room created a sound which bettered a $300k rig that would still be money well spent to create the sound which in Fasts room was magnificent, and he too was having the buyer's remorse conversation that his speakers werent sounding right or the way he wanted to before we started working with him.

Fast did not get all of the parts we demoed, he did change his cables, and added a server, he has not yet upgraded his dac, nor power system,  and has not gotten the footers or Stein products. 

The additions that he did do made a huge difference in transforming his sound, we have left it up to him to go as far as he wants to in the way that he wants to go. 

There are a few items you can do to add a bit more warmth in the midrange with the Personas, without spending a lot of money:

the Furutech NCF boosters believe it or not added a nice touch of additonal warmth, a change in power cords and the right power conditioner can also help, one of our favorite conditioners is $3k,

 Critical Mass footers are amazing a single set applied to the right component can produce some mind blowing improvements, from $1k a set to $2,800.00 

 the Iso Acoustics footers can be had for $210 dollars per component and can be used under the preamp, dac, and amp for some very audible improvements, not quite as amazing as the Critical Mass devices however, they produce some remarkable results for not much money, lastly the new ARC Genesis program will allow you to alter the low freq curve which will add some additional warmth to the speakers.

A product which is as transparent as the Personas will require you to do a bit of work they are not a drop and plop type of speaker, they will require you to make a series of changes to tune them to suit your taste some of the additions are not expensive.

If you heard our display system you would know just how remarkable the speakers can sound. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

pwhinson

an excellent summation on the Paradigm 9H loudspeaker. You possess an educated, trained ear,  to be sure. These current, modern speakers that incorporate Be drivers are lightning fast. In the same vein as a Thiel Audio loudspeaker, it is easy to confuse unnatural accuracy. This particular model tells us why an audition is imperative.
Enjoy your A3 demo this week. Happy Listening!

@frozentunda. I guess I’ve not decided unless and until I decide to buy something else but its obviously not a slam dunk. I hope this speaker purchase is my last before I'm put in my own fitted crate and sunk in the ground.  I’m not sure I’m ready to make any purchase this week, at least not until I hear some other options I know are out there.  But i’m somewhat limited because here in Atlanta despite the fact that its a city of some 7 million there just aren’t alot of high end dealers around. I’ve heard the Vandersteens but the only one’s I can afford that are in production are the Quattros which I like (powered subwoofer like the Paradigms) and although I think they are probably capable of more subtlety than the Paradigms they also seem to me to compress at higher volumes on full orchestral swells. You couldn’t make the Paradigms compress if your life depended on it.  In a way it may be the most accurate of them all if accuracy is what you really want but it just sounds a smidge more electronic to me on classical music whereas the Thiels don't.  I start to wonder if that's what all the time coherent first order cross over stuff is all about. I do have some limited qualms about the upper frequency range emphasis on the Paradigms but that's faded into a kind of minor point.  If you lessen the toe-in on the Paradigms you mitigate the very slightly hot top end. Going back to the Vandersteens, the 5a’s are out of production soon to be replaced by a $40K/pair speaker called something like "Quinto" while the 7’s require another $20K on top of that. The 5a would have been a likely contender but it started out its life as a $10K speaker that magically became a $35K speaker before they decided to discontinue it.  I just totally don’t understand Vandersteen's price increases over the past 5-8 years because while its evolved and been perfected somewhat with the carbon drivers there seemed to me to be no reason why the cost more than tripled.   With the Paradigms, remembering that I listen to mostly classical music, when I switch back my Thiel 2.4s, even though they sound muddy in the lower midrange compared to the Paradigm, individual instruments in quieter portions of the music sound just more natural on the Thiels and a tiny bit electronic on the Paradigms.  But truthfully I’m still trying to make sense of it all.  Clear as mud right?  It may be a case of having listened to and heard certain colorations in the Thiels for so long I can’t appreciate the relative accuracy of the Paradigms. The Paradigms are incredibly highly resolving. But whats the point of total clinical accuracy if it robs you of some of the emotional engagement you would otherwise have with the music on something like the Thiels. Of course some folks have said over the years that the Thiels sound "clinical" to them and there have been times when I thought the Paradigms in some way DID sound a bit like the Thiels. There’s still something that the Thiels (and Vandersteens for that matter) do right on classical music that I fear the Paradigms don't.  So I guess to answer your question I feel I’m pretty lucky to hopefully spend another day or two to get the sound of the Paradigms burned into my memory because I really do believe its a great speaker.  I really admire the speaker and the bass is just great not just because it goes so low but because it is so tuneful and so full of texture and while the midrange and tweeter are extremely revealing there is just some thing there that bothers me a little bit.  If I could play it for you and point it out and then switch in the Thiels I think you would hear it as well. I will get a taste of the character or house sound of the Magico lineup tomorrow via the A3...I would really like to hear the S3s and S5s but this dealer doesn’t have them in stock and truthfully the dealer seems more interested in selling Von Schweikert than Magico. There’s also aways the possibility of picking up a pair of Thiel 3.7s on the used market particularly since new driver replacement and service remain available on Thiels given the kind of cult following Thiels have and the couple of businesses that have popped up to service that following. Another thing the Paradigm has going for it by the way is that I confirmed with the company that virtually all parts of that speaker are field replaceable if service is ever needed...drivers, amplifier module etc. The only Magico that you can say that about is the A3. All the other Magicos have to be shipped via freight all the way back to California. The Thiel 2.4s which I bought new here in Atlanta 10 years ago were only $5K which was alot of cash for me at the time but this decision is going to be alot harder to make and I want it to be right.

We would also question Rivondale's testing methodology who says that is Schitt amplifier is good enough to drive the Personas, what cables were used, what source? There is so much more to setting up a world class sound system then arbittarily trying amp A with speaker B, maybe with his Schitt amplifier a dac or source change might have been required.

@audiotroy 

Source: Bluesound Node 2 streaming Tidal CD quality into Luxman DA-06, via optical cable.

Cables: Audioquest "Storm" series copper power cables, Audioquest biwire beefy copper speaker cables (newer line, maybe Oak? didn't see) and Audioquest XLR interconnects. The XLR were red and newer line, so maybe Fire.

The speakers I listed were placed in the same position on the floor (tape on the carpet), and played on the exact same system outlined above, roughly volume matched using my iPhone dB measurement app. The ONLY variable was the speakers. So yes, while the setup itself may not have been optimized for the Persona 3F, that is irrelevant because I was comparing all the speakers I listened to with each other, with all else being equal. In other words, a controlled experiment.

Rivondale sounds like one of those guys who have never played with power cables or footers or tuning accessories which can alter the sound in ways that can be very beneficial in bringing out the things you are trying to accheive.

Again, incorrect. Stop making assumptions. I've tested multiple brands and materials of interconnects, speaker cables and power cables on my home system. Even this weekend I went back to the same dealer to listen to Aerial Acoustics speakers, which I adored the previous visit (described above), and found them much less to my liking. I assume this is because the Bluesound Node was plugged directly into my integrated amp this time via Nordost Heimdall 2 RCAs (no outboard DAC) and the speaker cables were smaller gauge silver cables instead of the beefy copper biwire speaker cables I used last time.

I've never said that one should not or cannot optimize their system around a particular component. I simply said that the Paradigm speakers are inherently flawed because of their tilted frequency response up top and they subjectively bright compared to other speakers on the exact same system. 

Could you please compare the sound of the Paradigm Persona 3/5F to the Legacy Audio Focus SE on the same equipment? The latter is a speaker I'm very interested in and would be curious to hear your thoughts as I've only heard the former. Know you've mentioned the brand elsewhere in the thread.

ctsooner is a very funny guy. Every post from him is a opportunity to bash Paradigm, with subliminal messages, like the one in the last post ("daughter likes them for her parties at college ...").
I do not know the reason, but it is evident his crusade against this brand.

frozentundra,
You made a good choice with the Revel Ultima 2. That is a fine speaker. One of my favorites.
Are you from Wisconsin???

Pwhinson;

We’ll;

Did you buy them?
great Summary & review?

They are super revealing and are persnickety of matching electronics and cables, just like Thiels

They were 2 on my list before I bought Revel Ultima2’s

Each component I listened to them with had its own “ distinct “ personality
ex: Mac amps - great highs , soft bass
Bryston amps- great bass, aggressive highs
Nordost cables- detail, detail
AQ-earth cables- warm & warm & cozy 
etc

jeff

pwhinson

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your review of the Paradigm Personal 9H.
Your descriptions, emotions and feelings are on target with my impressions as well. This is a beautiful loudspeaker with excellent engineering. Happy Listening!

Oh, one more thing.  You mention wanting to adjust the bass response curve. With the new ARC Genesis, you will be able to custom tailor it however you want.  I think it releases in April or May.

@pwhinson do you have them toed in at all?  They should be facing almost straight.  Maybe 5 degrees total.  I have never gotten brightness especially on orchestral recordings that are decent or better.  Even stuff like the old Telarc CDs sound simply incredible.  Almost laid back yet with jaw dropping dynamics, scale, and wade.

@pwhinson I read your nice review of the 9H in your room. I get the impression they don't have all you want to pull the trigger to buy. 

If not, what are the other options?

Guys, these are just my personal feelings and it's not a big deal unless you paid more than 80% of the price of the speakers, lol.  We can move on from this I'm sure.  

Thanks Dave.  My own personal thoughts are that I'd never buy from a company that does this on a regular basis unless I got that same type of discount when they weren't running a promo.  Why would you want to take that kind of a loss?  

I know they do it, but I never felt it was good business for those paying full or close to full price as many do.  I have a local dealer (as you know) who is a great guy. I've even purchased a pair of Paradigms from him years ago, but it was at 30% off.  Daughter likes them for her parties at college as she blasts them lol.

There is a difference between a dealer who is not supposed to discount a product that highly, vs a manufactuer. 

In the case of Paradigm they routinely offer promotions, they are a very large company and can afford to do so. The dealer is getting something off of their invoice so it makes the sale more palitable.

As per routinely offering high discounts, most dealers will not and those that do can lose their franchises,  also it depends on the product certain very high end loudspeakers, not Kef nor Paradigm, but  have a higher than standard profit margin which allows for more discounting if that dealer wants to flaunt what they are actually supposed to offer their clients. 

Hope that clairfys this issue. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

OK, I’ve now tried to put into words my reaction to this speaker having lived with it in my own space for four days. Its a bit lengthy. I’ve measured the speaker in-room from here to kingdom come numerous different ways with pink noise and frequency sweeps and think I now have a good idea of how it sounds in MY ROOM. Your mileage may vary. I’ve put all my remarks in a pdf here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7j9fg6ladl2ttjw/Paradigm9hReview.pdf?dl=0

Vandersteen awhile back offered to give people a $500 discount on any new Vandersteen speaker that was their Treo Ct. or higher with a trade of any Series 2 speakers.