I now have about 260 hours on my PADIS fuse and ready to some listening. The PADIS fuse appears to look exactly like the Furutech fuse. It has the same blue casing with the PF logo on one side. Actually, the only visible difference between the PADIS and Furutech is that the Furutech has “FURUTECH” printed on the opposite side. However, there are actually differences:
My very initial thoughts on the PADIS fuse (in the first few hours) was that the PADIS seemed somewhat dryer sounding than the Furutech. The PADIS did not have the typical “cold / wet /chimey” tones that fresh rhodium plated Furutech components generally have (I’ve tested Furutech rhodium fuses, power cord connectors, interconnect – they all initially contribute this cold/chime character).
I have often stated that Furutech rhodium is painful to burn in. I have burned in many Furutech fuses and it goes through several painful areas. There are days in Furutech rhodium burn-in where I would sit down to listen and the sound would just be so bright / harsh / hard-edged that I said “I can’t listen to this”. At that point, I would just walk away and let it continue to burn in. With the PADIS fuses, it never got that painful. I could hear the burn-in process changes, but it was always listenable. At the 180-200 hour mark, the PADIS did get very bright/hard-edged, but it was still somewhat listenable (I did not have to walk away). At 220 hours it was fully resolved.
Now, for the comparison. I will say that the PADIS is an excellent fuse. For the money, you really cannot beat it, unless you need a warm signature (in which case you need an Isoclean fuse). Both the PADIS and Furutech share the same essential sonic signature. However, there is definitely a difference. The PADIS sounds very good – do not get me wrong, it is an excellent fuse. However, the Furutech really did have an improvement. The tones on the Furutech were just a bit more pure and true sounding. The Furutech had a more “solid” sound to the audio. The Furutech had a bit more punch and meatiness to the bass / midbass. The PADIS, on the other hand, was a bit more loose in the highs, causing the high frequencies to be a bit more messy and rattling. This does cause the PADIS to sound a bit more dry. The PADIS also did not have quite the depth of soundstage when compared to the Furutech.
Now some people might sit down with me and say “I can’t hear a difference” or “your just splitting hairs”. I might be. The difference in sound is VERY subtle, but to me it makes a significant improvement. The differences could also be revealed when listening over a longer period (like 20-30 minutes). The music with the Furutech is just more engaging.
If you have very low resolution or warm equipment, it is possible that you would not hear the difference at all. However, on high resolution stuff, the Furutech could make that equipment “shine” just a little bit better. The PADIS is an excellent buy. For half the cost, you get a whole heck of a lot of performance (almost a no-brainer if you’re still running a stock fuse!). For those who want to bleed out the most amount of performance and resolution – the Furutech is worth the cost.
There are a few possible reasons I can think of that would cause the PADIS/Furutech difference:
- Furutech fuse state a special damping filler inside to reduce electrical resonance. I cannot find an reference to a damping filler for the PADIS fuses. This could be why the PADIS sounds a bit more loose/dry/harsh in the highs
- Furutech does a Cryogenic treatment process. I cannot find any reference that the PADIS fuses get the same treatement.
- Rhodium plating. It is possible that the Furutech fuses are manufactured with a much thicker rhodium plating. I know Furutech likes a thick rhodium plating on their A/C connectors. The PADIS could have put a thin plating on their generic “PADIS” fuses. This could help explain why my burn-in process was not as painful.
Anyways, those are my findings. Maybe next year I’ll do a BLUE vs. Furutech analysis.
No... Because there wasn’t a widely accepted unit of resistance, people DIED because they didn’t know what they were working on. The only things people listened to were other parts exploding.
Really? What on god’s green earth does that have to do with fuses? But I’ll bite. In order to develop a meter to measure, there had to be some kind of consensus on what worked and what didn’t. They had to have some inkling of what was going on. They weren’t completely in the dark. How else would they know how to calibrate the meter until they were satisfied that they had the correct values? How many people do you think DIED making that meter? History, prior to the multimeter, is chock full of stable designs that didn’t KILL everyone. Hair on fire arguments are meant to distract. It won’t work here.
How about this? I’ll take my F5 and put one bad resistor in it. I’ll cover up all the markings on the others and give you an ohm meter without a dial or marked range selector on it. That and your ears are all you’re allowed to diagnose the problem with. Keep in mind the power supply is bipolar at 32.5V and pushing about 10 amp on each side with an additional 120,000uF of capacitance. You think that’s a good way to work? Go short out a charged 15,000uF cap and you’ll realize how horribly wrong that can go.
Kosst, if you’ve been seriously following my posts, you’d know better than to throw out figures like that as I’ve stated I’m the one who has problems putting batteries in a remote. Again, missing my point, and most deliberately with your red herring argument.
kosst_amojan "I have drawn the connection to what we know and what we hear many times. You have failed to read it or have dismissed it or whatever."
@geoffkait
You’re a liar and you have done no such thing.
Uh, calm down, Costco. Try to keep up with the discussion. This is like your ridiculous whining that no one had any measurements that you bellowed over and over again, even though the measurements were posted a great many times. I have described in detail the correlation of high end fuses to sound many times. You, know, like why there is a better signal because of better materials for the fuse wire, less vibration, resistance to RFI, etc. and there are a great many testimonies on these threads by customers describing the sonic changes due to aftermarket fuses, including the changes due to direction only. You have two ears and one mouth for a reason.
For those complaining that the difference measured for fuses was much too small to be significant, and that most volt ohm meters would be unable to actually measure the very small difference, you might consider measuring resistance of 100 feet of fuse wire. Then the difference in resistance would be what, a thousand times larger? Would it not be more obvious then that there’s something to this whole wire directionality thing? Anyone could measure that.
Look. I just
want somebody to explain what is happening. Nothing more, nothing less.
I can't even get somebody here to say it sounds like something. It's
funny because folks use terms here that have definite measured
signatures, but then claim there's no measurable difference when I damn
well know there is if that's what they're hearing. Don't take it
personal. I've asked a bunch of people making ludicrous claims to back
them up with a defined theory or numbers and they don't. That's really
the definition of snake oil. Snake oil amps. Snake oil fuses. Snake oil
cable connectors. Snake oil feet. Snake oil thingies to set on top of
your speakers to magically refocus the Morphic fields. This hobby is
full of it.
This is a hobbyist group, not a scientific forum. This is the wrong place to visit if what you seek is scientific documentation. No one here owes you the explanation that you're demanding. If this hobby is as "full of it" as you state, maybe you're in the wrong hobby. Or the wrong group. Or both.
Kosst has made one of the few sensible contributions to this thread, I don't want him to leave it. Goofykate makes his living fleecing people so it's obvious he's going to be a believer. I have tried both Furutech and hi-fi tuning and they don't make any difference. FOr anyone impressionable that may be reading this thread, save your money! Fuses are snake oil. You cannot hear any difference between fuses!
Isn't it strange that those who hear a difference accept it and those who don't or won't even try a different fuse go the Chicken Little route with the sky if falling, it'll blow, you're delusional, how dare you, you can't trust your own ears routine?
It's like religious extremists trying to save others souls.
One side is acting perfectly natural and the other is incredibly emotional, driving them to ridicule, insult, and look down their collective noses at others. As I've said before, there is some latent issues here that have manifested in this fuse argument.
The fuse is not the issue.
Right now, you can go to a power cable thread and find those who've never tried one other than stock and similar arguments are being put forth as for fuses: stock is good enough, no, I've never tried it and never will, you're all fools for believing it, expectation bias, etc. Check the archives and you'll find the same declaimers for all manner of audio gear.
Thou shalt not dwell on the aftermarket: it's the devil's work!
Anyone else think it’s ironic that the same naysayers who say blind tests would eliminate psychological biases like placebo effect and expectation bias from the equation, presumably to prove that the subject under test is a fraud, a ripoff, are the SAME dudes that claim that it’s all psychological? AND They’re the SAME dudes who never actually get down in the trenches and try these things. Sideline Sallys. AND they’re the SAME dudes who never test them. Coincidence? You decide. Real skeptics or fake skeptics?
Goofykate makes his living fleecing people so it’s obvious he’s going to be a believer. I have tried both Furutech and hi-fi tuning and they don’t make any difference. FOr anyone impressionable that may be reading this thread, save your money! Fuses are snake oil. You cannot hear any difference between fuses!
+ infinity and beyond.
This blatant voodoo rip-off is only working because of the sad gullible, non-technical few, and their expectation bias for paying stupid money for a 10c fuse.
I hate to judge these things but did someone spike the punch in the adult day care ward? While we're on the subject, who dropped the ball on the Roach Motels this time?
I can't speak to the audible differences in fuses because I have never tried changing them (full disclosure) but I have to say, this thread has been wildly entertaining!
Well, I hate to step into the middle of an argument (which unfortunately is becoming far too common here) but the topic posted from the OP is relevant to me at this point in time. I have been considering fuse options for my gear. I am still sitting on the fence, so to speak, as to the validity of fuses making an audible sonic difference, but being as how it is a relatively low cost venture, why not give it a go? In my own instance I have a six figure system, and the outlay of a few hundred dollars to try a few fuses is miniscule in comparison, and may indeed provide an improvement. If it does not, so what? I'm not out a lot of $$
For those that do not agree with the fuse upgrade concept, please refrain from trying to dissuade me.
I have a few questions for the "fuse" community. My virtual system is listed so I won't bother being redundant (and I hate typing) I do not intend to replace through all the components at this point in time. As I said, I'm just testing the water to see if I can hear a difference. Any advise on what components that I should swap out first, and any recommended fuses for them? I am also wondering if there is an easy/safe way to "burn in" prior to installation. Please keep in mind that all of my gear is left powered up 24/7, with the exception of my pre-amp, and phono stage, which are both tube units. I'm not comfortable leaving tube gear running 24/7
Well, one piece of information is that your Bryston 28B amps do not use fuses. They use circuit breakers instead. So you don’t have to worry about those pieces.
As far as testing the waters, I would probably start with your ARC LS 27. It looks like it uses a 3A fuse and it appears (based on the pics) that it uses the large 6.3mm x 32mm size fuse. You don’t have to burn in the fuse on the ARC. You can use an alternate device, such as maybe your MAC CD player? (as long as the physical size is the same). A 3A fuse is somewhat larger that I would put in a solid-state source device, but you could run it in for 10 days before placing it in the ARC. If you liked the results, you can try in your RIAA phono stage and your CD Player or MEN220. For fuse burn-in, you do not have to play audio through the device. You just have to make sure the device is powered on.
For fuse selection, we all have our preferences. I personally do not like silver based fuses (Hi-Fi Tuning, Synergistic SR20) because they have a push in the upper mids and sound artificial to me. They very fast and detailed, though. I think the silver does not have the ultra-high frequency “air” that the Furutech fuses have (I think silver actually rolls off the very high frequencies somewhat, we are talking like above 14khz or so). I have read that ARC is very high resolution and resolving for tube gear, so Hi-Fi Tuning or SR20 may not necessarily be the right choice. It highly depends on personal preference. There are some who like Hi-Fi Tuning better than Furutech.
There was one user who put a Furutech in his tube amp and had improved sonics. When he replaced the Furutech with a BLUE fuse, he did not hear any difference. This could be limited resolution from the tube amp. Others that have upgraded from Furutech to BLUE indicate a good improvement in sonic quality. Others indicate that BLUE may tend to roll-off high frequencies in comparison to BLACK. However, this could also be that BLACK fuses are very sharp in the high frequency detail. I have not tested BLUE or BLACK personally, so I could not be sure. The BLUE/BLACK are definitely a lot more expensive than Furutech, but they have a 30-day return guarantee..
One thought I had was to ask how attached you are to the MEN220. A quote from the following link:
I thought it might be of interest to some. I scrutinized the service manual for the men220. The analog inputs are digitized by a single akm ak5394a analog to digital converter(adc). This is a 24bit/192khz delta sigma adc, sn/dr of about 123db. There is a separate adc for the microphone input(akm as well). Then the signal is processed (room correct) in 2 Texas Instruments audio dsp, there is also an altera fpga in there. As a final step, the signal is converted back to analog via 2 wolfson/cirrus logic dacs, one per channel. These are 24bit 192khz dacs with about 120db sn/dr ratio in differential mono mode.
Since it is a digital signal processor (DSP), it is required to convert the analog signal to digital before doing the equalization/crossover. Then it converts back to analog via a DAC chip. You will lose some of the original analogue sonic signature doing this. Have you ever thought about removing the MEN220 from the signal chain and see how it sounds? If you have an environment which absolutely requires room correction, maybe this isn’t a good idea. Just a thought.
@crazyeddy, there is a review of the SR Black fuses over at Audio Bacon and in it they show how to make a fuse break in device that should take the pain out of it.
I've only tried two different fuses (HiFi Tuning Silver Stars & PADIS) so my experience is limited compared to others. However, I found the greater benefit to come from the source rather than the amp. Both benefited but my SACD player had a bigger level of improvement over my amp, but do try both.
Hopefully, @auxinout and others will chime in with their extensive experience.
Regarding the fuse breakin device shown at the link Nonoise provided, which I hadn’t previously seen, one of our other members recently asked me for advice as to the specific parameters that are involved in constructing such a device (which are not indicated in the video, and if not properly chosen COULD EASILY RESULT IN BLOWN FUSES). Here is the answer I provided, which apparently worked out well in his case:
I did some calculations of the resistance of various light bulbs based on their wattage ratings, which reflects their "steady state" resistance following the brief warmup that occurs at turn-on. I also measured their resistances with a good multimeter, which reflects the "cold" resistance they would very briefly have just after turn-on. The bottom line in each case was well over a 10:1 difference between those two resistances.
Which makes using a light bulb a tricky matter at best. Depending on the fuse rating and the wattage of the light bulb you would probably have either too little "steady state" current to be effective in a reasonable amount of time, or too much current during the instants following turn-on, which might blow the fuse.
I also thought about the possibility of using a resistor instead of a light bulb, since a suitably chosen resistor would provide essentially the same resistance immediately following turn-on as it would subsequently. However the problem with that approach, assuming you would be powering the setup with 120 volts AC, is that the power handling capability of the resistor would have to be very large.
So what I would suggest is that you use a Variac in conjunction with the light bulb approach. I suspect that you can find a used or possibly a new Variac inexpensively at eBay. That would allow you to bring up the AC voltage applied to the light bulb/fuse combination slowly, to avoid excessive current flow while the bulb is heating up.
The resistance of the fuse itself would be negligible compared to the resistance of the bulb. The resistance of the bulb can be calculated from its wattage rating (its actual wattage rating, not the "incandescent equivalent" rating) based on the following relation:
R (in ohms) = (120 volts squared) / (wattage rating)
So for example a 53 watt halogen bulb having a 75 watt incandescent equivalent rating would have a steady state resistance of:
R = (120 x 120)/53 = 272 ohms.
The resulting current would be:
I = E/R = 120/272 = 0.44 amps
For a bulb consuming 100 watts:
R = 144 ohms I = 0.83 amps
For a 250 watt bulb:
R = 58 ohms I = 2.1 amps
The burn-in current should be limited to no more than around 1/3 or at most 1/2 of the current rating of the fuse.
Variacs intended for 120 volt applications can generally be turned up to put out voltages that are somewhat higher than that, so you would probably want to use a multimeter to determine the setting corresponding to 120 volts.
... Regarding flicker bulbs, a point to keep in mind is that the only audio components whose AC power draw fluctuates significantly are power amplifiers that are not biased in class A. Or subwoofers or speakers which incorporate such amplifiers. Class A amplifiers, preamps, other line-level components, phono stages, etc., all draw essentially the same amount of AC current at all times.
@auxinput, I had to reread what I wrote several times before I realized what I did and then when I typed this, I did it again! I have to pull my mind out of the gutter now and again for perspective.
@almarg , I had no idea that something that looked so simple and innocent could be so deleterious. Thanks for posting.
I followed Al’s advice above when building my DIY Fuse cooker and it worked like a charm. Cooked two HiFi Tuning Supreme 2 amp coppers for four days with no issues and I have heard no further changes in the sound of the fuses after installation. .
The most significant thing IMO is that Al’s calculations demonstrate that the 3 amp flicker bulb used in that video does not pull enough current to do anything to exercise the fuse. The 100w incandescent bulb with the 2 amp fuses in series as suggested from Al’s calculations worked great for me.
kosst, if you were close to anyone here, it could be an idea to come over and visit. But since this discussion has dropped into a really negative fight, I don't think any experience with one of us coming to visit would be a good experience at all. It feels like you want us to spend the energy and time to try to prove to a non-believer that fuses make a difference (pretty much a losing argument anyways). Since the cost of a PADIS (about $33 shipped to US) is way to much for you to spend to try something new, I think any effort on us will just be entering into a losing argument. If you are really interested in fuses at all, then $33 should be a slam dunk Then we can start discussion on whether or not you hear differences. Anything further is just conjecture and fighting. I'm content with you having your last words. We can just go on discussing our own thoughts.
I second the recommendation of OP. Start with LS27, you should be able to hear overall improvement over the stock fuse. I also recommend to pick a next value up on high powered components. For LS27, please go with large 3.15A fuse. I end up blowing one HiFi Supreme and SR Quantum fuse of OEM values during power up sequence. I also own ARC’s LS27 and VT-80.
Keep in mind, each component reacts differently with specific fuses. In my system, I was able to achieve much better results by trying different fuses. Same brand of fuses throughout entire system isn’t always going to yield best results, IMHO.
Sorry for the delayed response folks. Been very busy with work. Thanks for the advice all. I think I'll do the LS 27 change to start with, and see how it goes. Now to just decide on what brand/model to choose from. I'll give it some thought before purchasing.
@auxinput As far as the MEN goes, I am not especially attached to it by any means. In fact, it has just been returned from some warranty work (AGAIN) and has been sitting in the stand in by-pass mode since it's return a few weeks ago. I do put a lot of effort into room treatment, and given the complexity of my room, is challenging, to say the least, but through many trial and error experimentations over the past few years, I am getting some positive results. I bought the MEN in hopes of, for lack of a better term "quick fix solution" It does help (when it works), but the more I achieve better room treatment successes, the less the MEN seems important. On a bit of a side note, my room is a dedicated listening environment, so I have only myself to please aesthetically. I can do whatever I want, without having to compromise for other family members taste in décor. :)
Some of you guys talk about lower resistance sounding better. That would mean a higher value fuse, or a solid bar would sound better. Did you try one of these? Temporarily of course. I did try the solid bar, about 20 years ago, and the unit did not sound better. Maybe there was a small difference, but not worth the chance to me. Another person suggests to "toss" your amplifier if a specialty fuse makes a difference in sound. No, don't do that. He also said an amplifier is faulty and needs repair if a specialty fuse makes a difference in sound. Well, probably not. If your amplifier if faulty, you would most likely hear a noise, buzz, etc. Or one channel will be weak. Specialty fuses, power cords, interconnects, and non electrical products such as isolation platforms, will change the sound somewhat. It's a matter of do you want to spend time experimenting, and also do you want to spend quite a lot of money in doing so. Good luck!
I get so sick and tired of the "people" who are always kicking, screaming, pouting, and whatever else they feel the need to do as they rant about measurements. So, To all the measurement people I put this out there: do you go to concerts, symphonies or any venue and listen to live music? Have you ever sat with a classical trained violinist and ask them what violin(s) they prefer, perhaps a Stradivari or Amati, and if they have a preference, ask them if they measured the violin for its performance. I would be willing to bet not, at least not the violin players I know. I get responses from them like "it just feels right", or "I can hear the difference from the first moment I move the bow across the strings". So, I guess those who play expensive musical instruments for a living do not know of what they speak for they have no measurements. Give it a rest all of your measurement freaks. Ears are also tools for measuring. We can hear distress in a voice, sorrow, pain, happiness and we can certainly hear what we hear with our own musical equipment. Go sulk in a corner, or go get drunk and rant at the bartender about your need for numbers but for those of us who can actually hear a difference between fuses, cables, tubes and whatever else we change or tweak, I will side with the person or people who hear a difference without the need for numbers.
Have you ever sat with a classical trained violinist and ask them what violin(s) they prefer, perhaps a Stradivari or Amati, and if they have a preference, ask them if they measured the violin for its performance.
They feel the need to do as they rant about measurements.
We are not building violins and if they had electronics in them yes you could measure them.
We are making electronic audio gear that attempt to reproduce those sounds, and to do that you must use measurements and all laws of electronics otherwise you end up a Scientologist like Geoff.
As for live concerts all the amps ect the artists use are designed and built using measurements and all the electronic laws, if they weren't you wouldn't have any live concerts.
I’m pretty sure when someone is reduced to name calling and dropping names he’s completely run out of ammo. Besides I broke two of your sacred Laws of Science just today. No big deal.
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