No problem, Koost. In the overall scheme of things, somebody has to be mid fi so it might as well be you. Good luck in your quest for mediocrity.
Our Responsibility
As my music system competes with fireworks in the background (4th of July, after 9 pm) I’ve been reflecting on John Darko’s recent post (linked below). Specifically this section:
Perhaps the significance and import of this very special day in our national history has opened up a window within me, to explore this further.
I’m asking our community: What is it that we can do to share and expand our interest and hobby, and this special love of music, with others?
From Darko.Audio: https://darko.audio/2019/07/the-know-it-all-audiophile-threatens-community-expansion/
"Being a hi-fi enthusiast isn’t about the gear we own, the music we listen to or in which format. It’s about how we listen: attentively and mindfully, to the music AND to others."
Perhaps the significance and import of this very special day in our national history has opened up a window within me, to explore this further.
I’m asking our community: What is it that we can do to share and expand our interest and hobby, and this special love of music, with others?
From Darko.Audio: https://darko.audio/2019/07/the-know-it-all-audiophile-threatens-community-expansion/
86 responses Add your response
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oregonpapa- Thanks! I was having trouble finding it. I used the link and of course now see it. A big difference? I have very stable power and dedicated 12 G wires to dedicated breaker. I assume you have similar and this improved your SQ even further? (Not to steal this thread) Anyway, thanks for the info and perhaps I will need to try in my own system to answer that question David |
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kosst_amojan ... a small clique of fanatics consistently spew their sideways, indefensible opinions ... The radical magnification of relatively nuanced things ... fervent assertions surrounding completely nonsensical snake oil "tweaks" ... radical, nonsensical, out-of-touch-with-reality garbage ... the legitimacy of flat Earth science or Church of the Subgenius theology ... you get your rocks off trying to explain reality with broken logic and pseudo-science, and would prefer to not face scrutiny ... becoming a creationist might better fulfill your needs ... Stop trying to kill this hobby and confuse new converts with idiotic claims and snake oil.You obviously have your own sense of reality and brand of religion, and a very colorful - even bombastic - way of expressing it. Sadly for you, others are free to particpate here provided they remain within the forum rules. It’s unfortunate that this distresses you to such an extreme. Beware the audio guru. I started that thread just for guys like you. |
dseltz ... To answer your question, "The Gate" is a device that is placed into and connected to, your circuit breaker box. It will transform your system like nothing else. Go here for information: www.perfectpathtechnologies.com Frank |
Laws are meant to be broken. That includes the laws of physics. Heck, I just broke three of them without turning around. 🤗 Ignorance of the law is no excuse. - Old audiophile axiom pop quiz time! 🤗 We know light cannot escape a black hole. That’s why black holes appear black. But does that mean photons have mass, that the photons are prevented from radiating outward by the extreme gravity of the black hole? |
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kosst_amojan ... that’s not how the law works". Can you imagine what the world would look like if it functioned as your broken logic suggests? ...You claim science is on your side as you allege "snakeoil," which is a form of fraud. So prove your case. Or, perhaps, stop insisting here that others are obligated to provide data to suit your sensibilities. |
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cd318
Expose the all too many snake oil salesmen ...There is a noisy minority on this site that proclaim this as a personal mission. But they never bring a court case to prove their claims of fraud and malfeasance, which makes me wonder what their motivation truly is. It obviously isn't to expose the truth. |
"What is it that we can do to share and expand our interest and hobby, and this special love of music, with others?" 1 Demonstrate that it is fun and worth all the trouble and expense. 2 Expose the all too many snake oil salesmen (yes, it’s usually men), who are determined to prove, for their own gain of course, that it isn’t. |
Hello Quality ‘Originally’ it was listening in a fixed place in a room, dominated by someone, then your own room. Fixed place leads to a naturally improving system. You could bring your LP’s to any dedicated room. Reel to Reels, also portable, was a rich man’s game, experienced by very few. WWII military in Asia had access to affordable reel to reel, but pre-recorded content was minimal and pricey. Home recordings were very possible. Recording radio was a big thing. ‘Free Content’. I inherited my rich uncle’s system, otherwise I might never have experienced reel to reel, my favorite format still. …………………… Format Change, Mono, Stereo, …… I am 71, a USA baby boomer. I experienced FM making it into car radios, then homes; mono to stereo: home equipment, phono, portable ‘suitcase’ music systems, tubes to transistors, development of sealed enclosure loudspeakers, affordable decent home audio systems, …. And the simultaneous development of access to reproduction/recording equipment for musicians, thus garage bands, …. The 60’s oh boy. Reduction in size, thus portability of that equipment was a big factor. Tube to Transistor was a huge factor in portability and reliability. Operated without much knowledge. Then the equipment quest, the audio industry, dedicated publications: late 60’s, 70s, 80,s. I stopped paying any real attention to equipment mid 90’s. Back to tubes, lps, reel to reel, content. I listen to my friend’s high end system, his digital content, sounds terrific, but it’s not for me. ………………………………. Hello Portability/Hello Compromise ****8 Tracks were the Beginning of the End***. A physically horrible design, never intended for music. They were invented for advertising on radio stations. A small amount of tape (thus less stress on the whole system), to only last the length of ‘that’ ad campaign, then into the trash can. But, now, for the first time, we, the masses, could listen in our cars, our friends cars (very important to teenagers then), anyone’s hangout, share our content. Goodbye LP’s, goodbye quality, goodbye quality speakers, hello lousy car speakers, …. , repeat, the beginning of the end. Cassette, originally for dictation, words, not music, increased in quality and portability to kill 8 track. The Walkman then added Isolated Individual listening, even in crowds and noisy distracting environments to the portability and sharing, and home recording/sharing was a rocket. Content, reduced size, reduced cost to free unlimited quantity, totally portable.
………………………………. Where does that leave us? Compromise is what most of us avoid, then, avoiding compromise, we seek perfection, what a curse. Propagate the curse, good luck with that.
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millercarbon Our understanding of the electromagnetic force is, in fact, 100% complete. So why then are all our electronic components imperfect? >>>>>Actually, that’s an excellent example of someone use a long scientific term pretending to be scientific. In fact, the electromagnetic force has precious little to do with audio. Michael Green employed a similar logical fallacy by stating there are four fundamental forces, including the electromagnetic force so, by virtue of that fact, his argument must be correct. |
kosst_amojan @geoffkait You sell a lot of snake oil. You make ludicrous claims about it; claims that aren’t supported by ANY kind of science. Then when you’re challenged you go off of the logical fallacy bandwagon like a flat earther. You entire post up there is a rant in support of logical fallacy winning the day. Let’s go through it point by point, shall we? >>>Uh, I have a degree in theoretical physics, Koost. You, on the other hand, should have listened to your mother and stayed in school. |
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noromance ... My folks (parents) almost disowned me when I started playing Bebop jazz back in the 50s. They had a Garrad turntable, a Fisher tube receiver, a couple of AR speakers and a pair of Koss headphones. It sounded good, but all they played was Herb Alpert, The Smothers Brothers, and Burl Ives. They just didn't get Charlie Parker and Diz. *lol* |
david_ten ... Thanks, I appreciate the thought, but ... the new generation isn't into this stuff. Totally addicted to their phones and I-pads though. They are so busy with their careers, there isn't much time for them to listen anyway. noromance ... "The Gate" is worth every penny of that five grand. To get the kind of upgrade in SQ allowed by "The Gate," one would have to spend many times that amount. Doing things over again, "The Gate" would be my first upgrade. I'd love for you to hear my system at this point. It is quite remarkable. Frank |
None of them, including my grandkids, even have CD players. How do you share music with people like this? Frank, I'm confident that at least one of your Grandkids will channel their audiophile Grandfather in the future and have fond memories and a connection to you regarding this and more. Keep sharing your love of the hobby with your family. |
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rbstehno What is snake oil? Who gives the right of 1 person to call something snake oil?Those who rail against other people’s religions and dismiss them as "snake-oilers" are nothing new here or on other forums. It’s sad, and the result of hate and ignorance. Beware the audio guru. |
What is snake oil? Who gives the right of 1 person to call something snake oil? For example: who gives somebody the right to call cables snake oil? How about power conditioners? How about room acoustic pieces? Who qualifies as an expert to label a product snake oil? This hobby is no different than being into nice cars. 99% of people drive a car to work or to the store and don’t really care too much about quality or technology, same goes for our audio hobby. Let’s call this group the ‘corolla’ group. If I ask anybody in this car group if they would like to buy this particular tire that has helped my Porsche handle better but costs 5x more than the tires they now have, they would think I was stupid to spend that kind of money on a tire. How about a more expensive spark plug, air filter, or a better spark plug coil adding another 10,000 volts to the plug? Same goes with our audio hobby, a guy with a good system or good ears claims that X product makes his system sound better, he is labeled as a snake oil vendor or promoter. A cable is a cable, right? (I’m not talking about con artists that want to charge you a lot of money to change your muffler bearings, there are definitely crooks out there) There are more people out there that think the $ we spend on audio or cars is a stupid thing to begin with. 99% of all people don’t care about top quality audio systems or top quality cars and that won’t change anytime soon. I don't need anybody to tell me (especially if they are in the ‘corolla’ group) if X product is good or bad, I’ll let my ears or if talking about a car, my right foot or the seat of my pants, tell me if it’s good product or not. |
Let me help you guys out a little bit. First of all you can’t debunk something that’s not bunk. But don’t let that stop you. Here are a few tips.
• Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will send the message that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it -- and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining. • By every indirect means at your disposal imply that science is powerless to police itself against fraud and misperception, and that only self-appointed vigilantism can save it from itself. • Portray science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a pre-emptive holy war against invading hordes of quackery-spouting infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate the scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending it. • Reinforce the popular fiction that our scientific knowledge is complete and finished. Do this by asserting that "if such-and-such discovery were legitimate, then surely we would already know about it!" |
@kosst_amojan, great initial post. Well worth a second read. "This hobby has something in common with religion. Denial of reality. Just like religion, this is a dying hobby, and plenty of folks want to deny it along with the reasons it's dying. I've never seen a problem get solved when the nature of the problem is denied. A BIG problem, and the basis of the most vitriolic exchanges, is the rabid embrace of snake oil by so many in this hobby. The general public really does think most of this hobby is snake oil and vanity and the kinds of advice I see lobbed at self-described freshman here does nothing to dismiss that perception. This snake oil nonsense that gets pawned off as "legitimate" audiophilia is distinctly different than the various philosophies on what constitutes a good system. Genuinely different philosophies are based on technical knowledge and personal priorities in what the listener is trying to accomplish. The line gets crossed into snake oil when "tweaks" are elevated to the importance of core technical specifications. For instance, imaging is poor, and rather than address the acoustics of the room (the real problem), idiotic solutions like cables, isolation footers, and fuses get suggested. That not only discredits the hobby, but it inevitably instigates debates to try to disprove and shut those nuts down. I make it a point NOT to employ such snake oil tweaks so that when I put somebody in this listening chair they know there's no hocus pocus at work. It's nothing but basically competent equipment in a treated room doing what it does. It's not the prettiest, but it sounds really good. The amp doesn't have a top so they can see it's guts and I can explain what it's doing with very simple analogies. The speakers are what they are, Focal 936's on their factory spikes. My gear sits on a solid oak table. There's NO magic beyond ordinary comprehension at work here. I've had several people in their early and mid 20's here to hear this thing. One guy has been lusting after it ever since, but doesn't have the space. The 23 year old girl was legitimately stunned after believing it couldn't be THAT good for 2 years. We sat together and she seriously listened for almost 45 minutes. She was so into it that she forgot I was even there. When she finished she asked me what everything in the room cost, piece by piece and I told her. She said it seemed "wise" even given the cost. She explained to me that she's spent so much on "frivolous" things like clothes and drinks and jewelry, but I have something that allows me THIS experience any time I want and that seems "wise". Young people, in my estimation, are groping for legitimate value in this world. All too often they're sold a perception of value. Insanely prices coolers that don't work any better than my Coleman. iPhones that crack and break if you look at them wrong and are worthless in 2 years. Outrageously styles cars that ape the looks of classics or track cars, but made mostly of plastic with their fake vents and scoops. Even their friends are fake digital friends. Put these people in front of something real and legitimate that legitimately moves them and they do not forget. That's how I cultivate the next generation. Give them an experience. Give them knowledge and explanations they can understand. The first thing I do before somebody listens is have them listen to the room. Let them hear the difference between my listening room and my dining room just talking. It's obvious. They instantly get it. There's no snake oil to it. It's not cheap stuff, but it's definitely worth what it cost in the experience it creates." |
Elizabeth, I generally appreciate your remarks and insight, and you're usually right. But, there's 6 standards to meet the threshold of Fraudulent Representation, as opposed to "Puffery" and the court system takes a pretty dim view of the fraud part. It's actually quite illegal. Overselling may be a part of the audio culture, but if the wheels are set in motion by the manufacturer and it involves outright lying, it puts the manufacturer in a very vulnerable spot. All it takes is for somebody to get screwed, then get mad and be able to document what happened... and there's either a quiet settlement or court case that resonates throughout the industry. Watch what happens with this one. |
I think it’s human nature to share with others what you enjoy, and just like many of us in this forum. We were somewhere where we could be introduced to a music system that captured our attention. Hoping that we can pass the baton on, by introducing quality playback to others who may embrace the passion we have shared, I think it’s brilliant. What that person may or not do if they get such an experience, it’s up to them I suppose. |
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Oh boy, there is always someone in every crowd that wants everyone to know their feelings about religion or politics. Almost like a badge of honor or a membership to club. If the analogy didnt suck I might be inclined to allow it. Of course kosst is correct about sharing the experience but this point have been made without the soapbox. |
I love music, live music in particular. I try to get live music sound in my home system. By and large, I have been lucky, because I trust my ears. Speaking of snake oil... I have been stung a couple of times though, by Conrad Johnson in particular-- not a dealer, but the owner of the company, Jeff Fischel. Prior to purchasing my LP260 M SE amplifiers, Jeff and I had a conversation about these amps, and he likened them to the CJ ART amps, costing nearly twice as much. He explained away the cost difference as the cost of the fancy metal work. So, I bought the amps. Then, I discovered the truth when CJ was trying to sell me new amps (direct to customer-- sorry dealers), and he told me how much better the old ART amps were than my LP260M SE's. It was amazing, in just a year, my amps went from being directly comparable to the top of the line, and then suddenly became "mid-level" Conrad Johnson products. I think this qualifies as snake oil, or more specifically, fraudulent representation. Anybody else want in on a class action suit? |
Assuming (uh,oh) that most people on here were born between 1945 and 1960, I think the reason behind the lack of enthusiasm for our hobby might be because we all matured and first had our own disposable income available at the time when "stack stereo" was in vogue and hi-fi was being heavily advertised as something to aspire to. There were stores everywhere and the golden age of LPs and music in general was well underway. The improvement in SQ compared to the radio or parents console was readily apparent so that gave us easy reasons to get on the treadmill of further SQ improvement and away we went. We had our own rooms at home to set them up in and likely moved out of home and into our own houses or good sized apartments when real estate was affordable to all. There, we carried on because we took our gear with us. Today? No stores, no ads, no LPs and it is very difficult to enter the real estate market. What do they have instead? Portability and poor sound. With some education, they might work on improving the SQ from their phones but it is not the goal that it was for us. Of my 3 boys who have all been fortunate to buy their own homes, only one has shown any interest in separate component music reproduction. His wife thinks it is a waste of time, money and space so it seems unlikely that he will stay on the treadmill. |
