''Óriginal parts'', ''identity '' and ''retip'' conundrum

Actually my remark about terry also apply for dover but he certainly 

can't be blamed for the fact that N.Zeeland produces such a good

wine. Also interesting the fact that he owns an second cart next to

his many times ''rebuild'' Karat 13 D. One AS NEW (sic!) Ikeda

Kiwame. Does ''like new'' mean ''second hand''? Like Lew ; more

TT's than carts. Not to mention all those tonearms.

I purchased my current Ikeda Kiwame brand new - it was my third Ikeda after the 9 and 9EM. As new means I have not put many hours on it. It is in as new condition, not retipped, not rebuilt, not refurbished, as purchased ( new).

I have only put a few hundred hours on it. I do not as a general rule buy second hand cartridges ( too many dodgy  sellers on flea bay ).

There are without doubt individuals on this Analogue Forum that have acquired a in depth understanding of Cartridge Technologies and are committed to the source of the designs and their minute understanding of their designs.

Another consideration is that design teams come together and separate heading off in other directions, possibly seeking new challenges or creating their own ventures, many revered Cartridges are now separate Brands from this type of historical happening.

In a more modern world, freelance is a more common seen method of recruitment, and technicians are used for a particular project, maybe in some cases to bring in fresh thoughts and rejuvenate old staple philosophies. These types of individual are gathering a broader experience and have a developing skill set that is potentially able to produce a variety of configurations for materials used on a Cartridge that will deliver a very acceptable end performance.   

I use a Cartridge rebuild service that the Technician started out their career as a freelance and has worked within a design team on a few very well known Cartridges, that are very well received by a large number of users. This does not mean I am doing anything absolutely correct, it just means I am offering my Cartridge to an individual who has had hands on the early designs and production of Cartridges from the same brand, I find it quite reassuring, that the Technician is well versed and experienced in working with the Brands Technologies.

Another consideration is that a Brand will usually design a Cartridge that will be a Parent Model, and there will be follow up Models produced using proportions of the Technologies found in the Parent Cartridge.

I will suggest that this is for two reasons, One to be the foundation of a New Range of Models to be offered, and the other to produce a Sonic that covers a much broader spectrum of a listeners preferences, creating differences to assembly of materials found on the Parent Model, to counteract the deficiencies it has to meet a certain type of sonic trait.

It is common to see a range of Cartridges where the assembly of parts differ slightly, be it a differing Stylus, Cantilever Material, Cant' Material / Stylus, Damper Material, Suspension Wire, or even a slight change to the Coil Windings.

Technically these new produced models using the Parents Models Core Technologies are looking to myself, to be rebuilds of a particular model, albeit the Parent Model as being the start point. 

It is also known as a disclaimer by manufacturers that if a Cartridge is returned to be overhauled, that there might be differing components selected for the refurbishment works, as the originals may not be in stock any longer. This as an outcome will be to produce another variant of the Parent Model or Off Spring Model. What is for sure is that the returned Cartridge will not be the same assembly of materials as the Model when purchased new.       

If a Third Party Service with a good reputation, chooses to use a different Stylus, Cantilever / Stylus, Damper or a Suspension Wire, the work undertaken will have created a further variant of the Parent Model or its Off Spring Models. It is impossible to say if such a variant is a lesser performer than the pre worked on model. It is very possible to say the Model is no longer an identical model to the supplied model at the time of purchase, and this seems to be very similar to the disclaimer being made by a manufacturer.    

Can anyone explain to me why Axel was not able to answer all those

emails about his retips (alias ''rebuilds'')? He got customers from the

whole world thanks PR in this forum. I as his friend needed to wait for

more than 3 months for ''my retips''. By van den Hul, Expert stylus,

Ledermann the same ''state of affair''. This I call hypocritical behaviour

of those who pretend to be against retips.

 

pinda, ''for two things to say that they are identical is nonsense

and to say that everything is identical with itself says nothing''

(Wittgenstein)

dover, never heard about ''teasing''?

If a product is produced from the exact same assembly of Materials, in the terms of a Marketing Description it is an Identical Model, and that is the requirement of the law to ensure the Model on offer complies with the materials used as advertised by the Supplier/ Manufacturer.

As said when the time of Manufacturer Refurbishment Occurs, a disclaimer might declare that the materials in the assembly may not be maintained, if new parts are to be used in the process of refurbishment.

I am sure that if an assembly of a selection of Parts belonging to a range of Cartridge Models was investigated with scientific control measures, a difference between a similar part,  when compared is most  likely to be detected, such a endeavour to match parts to this level of accuracy is not required to be carried out by the Cartridge Manufacturer, and I doubt whether such a practice has ever occurred.       

pindac , Those  are ''deep philosophical waters'' because two

different criteria are assumed. I already quoted Wittgenstein:

''for two things to say  they are identical make no sense''.

Even Quine was not able to explain the difference between

equal and identical. Frege's  problem to explain truth was 

caused by his conviction that  ''correspondence''  in correspondence

between an statement and reality make no sense because one

is linguistic and ''the other'' is not. BTW the expression ''extra

linguistic reality'' means ''the same'' . Now ''our carts''. If they are

''identical'' how  can they sound different? There are to many people

who sell their Van den Huls but there not many who sell their FR-7fz.

or Takeda's Miyabi. 

BTW are Siamese twins equal or identical? If identical what kind

of ID should they have. ?  Are two eggs identical or equal in the

sense of their property? Well there is ''property criterion'' and

meaning criterion : ''everything is identical with itself''.

According to Wittgenstein this ''says nothing''. :iucky us humans

each individual has his own such that there are no two with the

same identity. However some may look as an other(grin) 

Can a Link be supplied to the discussion where the referred to individual 'Wittgenstein' has made comments known about MC Cartridges and 'retips', this might help with eliminating Third Party interpretations, that are seemingly detracting from the subject of the thread. The content offered from the said person 'Wittgenstein' on the matter of commercial products assemblies and the consistent use of common parts whilst a range of models is being produced, appears to be suggested as being quite relevant. 

  

Wittgenstein was Austrian Philosopher belonging to the so called

''analytical school''. His work was ''Tractatus'' and ''Philosophical

investigations''. Alas he was not capable to formulate any theory

but made many  philosophical remarks. About 10000 in his

investigation while an normal person can remember, say, 10.

There was also one particle physics  scientist very celebrated

but I forget his name. Not however his statement: ''If I was smarter

I could remember more of those particles''.

In , uh, ''the same way'' I remember quoted statement about identity

from Wittgenstein. '' A looks like B''  may , I hope, explain uh, ''the

same cart'' in your description ? This  assumes that A and B

are not identical. In addition certainly so if they don't sound ,uh,

''the same''.

 

Damn you pindac, I was forced to search for an possible explanation

for Wittgenstein opinion about identity. I knew that is has something

to do with difference between properties and meaning but forget the

(damn) details. Well there is this ''huge German philosopher ''

Leibniz with his ''principle'' of identity named in Latin parlance 

among scientist back then . Just bellow aristocracy qua status.

the expressions was INDISCERNIBILIS or English INDISTINGUISHING:

My guess was '' if there are two eggs'' than obviously (?) one

can distinguish  one from the other.  But one need to know that

back than it was not polite to contradict philosopher, Certainly so

in Germany. Think of Kant . If you want to stay alive never say

whatever bad about his greatness. Wittgenstein however was not

even impresses by Russel or Frege and insulted both by

stating that ''two of whatever'' can't be identical as well that

this kind of identity MAKE NO SENSE. But he actually also

stated the same for the other CRITERION  : being identical with

one self. This according to him ''says nothing''. 

So my best members of this forum look out with identity 

of parts and other CONUNDRUM as mentioned in this thread. 

@nandric -  Thank You for supplying such Merryment, it is great to see your willingness to embrace the Ambience of the Seasonal Celebrations. I don't know if you are devout in Christianity, and have adopted a very modern approach to the Celebration of Christmas where everything is based on excess and good cheer.

The latter in the thread approach offered by yourself as your contributions to a discussion on an MC Cartridge having 'original' or 'non original parts' is pure comedy.

The relevance and importance of the information being supplied,  is unfortunately way above comprehension for my mere level of intelligence, but I assume this is your suspicion anyways.  To quote one Philosopher on this matter has caused myself to be bewildered and I can't find the reasoning within me, to bring the Product and Philosopher together in any form of an alignment. 

I consider myself as not being stupid enough to overlook a content that is hilarious and in abundance with stupidity. These are the ingredients of all great comedy, so thank you for your wit and supplying the opportunity to smile and laugh aloud.      

The content on offer has prompted myself to think a little beyond the Thread Subject, and I have recollected that I know of one Modern Production Cartridge that might be aligned to a Philosophical Description that has been used for the Models name, as in Japanese Philosophy the term 'Umami' suggests that the experience of the of the native cuisine, is being able to produce a multi - sensory experience, I would assume such a basic description has been the centre of conversation at many a dinner party attended by affluent learned types, where the fundamental meaning has been intellectually assaulted to beyond recognition.

Rightly or Wrongly on my behalf, I would believe this is a Philosophy used when the Hana Umami Red MC was having a design brief produced, who knows maybe the morning after one of the dinner parties referred to.     

How dover killed his own ''rtinciple'' or  ''arguments''.

We first got as ''general rule'' (12-24) : ''it comes down to economics

and budget''

(12-27) ''it is very simple : cost benefit analysis'' (principle?)

But : ''it is not your business what I paid for my (3x) rebuild''.

Well I reported ''my prices'' but he refuses to report his . How

than can we make ''cost benefit analysis?

But then as by the Greek ''deus ex machina''

the Denon 103 D. as ''prove'' that the point is not about prices.

But why should our members bother about ''rebuild'', ''refreshment''

or even my ''inferior  retip '' for  500 euro when we can get

new Denon 103 D for $ 280 ? 

Well pindac, You don't need to be modest reg. your intellectual

capabilities. I deed need to search for the meaning of your

expression ''merryment'' because there was no such word in my

Dutch English vocabulary . But on internet was even its social

function explained as humour. You are the first who grasped 

my intention to be , say, amusing. People obviously consider

philosophy and logic as ''serous business. But this is not the case

as an French mathematician stated about logical explanation 

of mathematics:  ''this logical approach is certainly not infertile 

it produces paradoxes''. 

Thanks for your understanding .

 

By definition, basic cost benefit analysis is a process of examining a variety of combinations and scenarios where there are costs and associated benefits. This can be accounting.  The total benefits outweigh the total costs.

However - What is the extra benefit (utility) you obtain from spending an extra amount of money given a menu of combinations?

This is economics and the process becomes rather more nuanced, but we usually all become so good at it that it becomes intuitive.

Note - I say extra. Should it be positive amount, it is a trade that you may decide upon. Because audiophiles are decisive folk. 

It may be a negative number, like when you have just bought a wonderful CD collection and you then you buy anything by Adele.  I digress.

Budget only becomes meaningful when it is a constraint and the possible combinations are thereby limited.

@dover was not incorrect.

noske, this is the worst PR story i have ever seen. In Dutch

jurisprudence was an case about advertisement with a curious

judgment : ''the bigger the lie the smaller the lie''. That is

if even  the kids can ''grasp'' the lie it should not count as lie.

Tell a lie as well pretending is an art.  The art to compose a lie which

looks like truth. This imply that lie which are obvious make no sense.

There are however ''honest kind''. As , for example, from this

Danish philosopher who stated: ''I never lie because I don't need

to remember them''.

In the other thread about ''sound of wire'' dover wrote an poem 

about Denon 103 D and ruined this way also the ''contribution'' of

noske as well the relevance of discrimination between retips, rebuild

as well ''refreshment'' of carts. 

 

@noske Has made it quite clear in his statement

"However - What is the extra benefit (utility) you obtain from spending an extra amount of money given a menu of combinations?"

If this is taken into the account that @jcarr has offered on the variables that are able to be considered at the time of Cartridge Design, and if a Supply Chain Member can deliver the wanted component as a Off the the Shelf Part, or a Bespoke Produced Part, will most likely determine that extra monies will be added to the end product .

Unfortunately for the Cartridge user the extra benefits of the assemblies produced to complete a Cartridge Range of Models, will be limited to the Manufacturers assessment, once the measurements are satisfied the end Sonic Trait will be determined by their methods of Subjective Listening Tests and a Verdict offered.

It is the Manufacturers Verdict on the unique Sonic Traits, i.e, their assessment of where a addition or removal of transparency is noticed, that will filter down into the Marketing Literature and Sales Spiel for each Model in the range.

In most cases a Range of Cartridges that has a Parent Cartridge and a Off Spring of Variants from the Parent Cart' will have the Off Spring Cart's produced with less parts or lesser parts, i.e, Aluminium replacing Boron, or a Styli Shape and Brand, lesser Quality Damping or Suspension, and in some cases the production cost cut will extend to the Magnet Material being different.

All in all, a MC Cartridge of certain Values will be placed in a area of Marketing where the Low Sales Volume will be counteracted with High Mark Up to the sale price.

It is this Marketing Method, and not limited to a Cartridge Only, that creates a mind set where the Buyer has to justify the cost of such a luxurious item as a purchase, and the fantastical spiel follows, where such items are exalted to Holy Grail Status, where one must aspire to reach.

The reality is that certain Bespoke Produced Cartridges, are seen to be reported on as an incremental improvement, over Cartridges that can be referred to as a design from a Manufacture with increased productivity and larger volume production.

It is quite important to take on board that nearly all assessments that are are offered and discovered when a interest arises, are resulting from a subjective evaluation and an individuals assessment. It is quite important for a Prospective Customer of an Item, to carry out their own assessment and make their own evaluations.                

Dear pindac,  Nice theoretic thesis. But the question is how many

people can afford , say, 4th level cartridges? If our task is to

stimulate young people to join us I think dover's ''poem'' about 

Denon 103 D is of most importance. I do not think ''inductive''

that is from my personal situation and than composing general

statements. Would ''sound'' like Marlene Ditrich or Marie Antoinete.

I own + 70 carts among which very rare kinds.

 

 

My Gosh I owned Denon 103  before dover. But in disquise as Magic

Diamond made by Andreoli from Denon PARTS .  Not sure however of

which LEVEL those are.  Does this imply or mean that dover and I have

the same  taste? 

 

 

What?!!!!  

best-groove, Not sure what you mean with ''What'' but if you are

''stunned'' by my guess that dover and I have ''the same'' taste I

need to mention that I also own Ikeda's 9 Rex (cantileverless) kind

as well Takeda's Miyabi. If in addition dover also owns some of the

FR-7 kinds  then it should be obvious that we at least share some

''the same'' cartridges. 

 

@nandric

my translator reports the opening text of this thread with rambling sentences and incomprehensible terms ... a written slang understandable for many but incomprehensible to me. 

I only understood from the last sentence that the retip styles provided by Namiki and Ogura are the same ones that are applied to the manufacturers’ cartridges or something similar.

best-groove, it is obvious our fault that  you are not capable to understand

the ''rambling sentences'' so you should buy an better translator. Japanese

seem to be experts in translation but Chinese are nearly as good and

cheaper.

Rephrasing the points made:

The myth of ''original parts'', ''identity confusion'' and ''misunderstanding

of retips''.

1.''Original parts'' presuppose  not only the method of their idetification

     but also of their importance. Neither is made clear.

2. ''Identity'' : no identity without an entity or ''object'' . Names are assumed

     to  provide the reference. But ''fake names'' are not .

3.  Retips, aversion against retips is based on false assumptions: 

     that manufacturer use  their own unique styli while retipers use

     some other (not original) kinds. Our general statement is that

      both use ''the same'' styli produced ether by Ogura or Namiki

      as a combo with the cantilever. The question than is , is gluing

      this combo in the ''joint pipe'' (aluminum  part of the cantilever)

      better done by the manufacturer or retiper as well why? 

      The other thread about Replicant as ''third party'''deed not

       deliver relevant information. 

 

 

@best-groove 

+1, largely incomprehensible, and not just from a language barrier. Raul's English isn't perfect either, but I can tell exactly what his point is. 

The usual qualifications without argumentation. People who have

no idea what they are talking about complain about their own 

''incapability''. There is internet you know. There you can

check your own language barrier. Understanding Raul ''exactly''

illustrate your ''understanding'',

 

 

I have not investigated all Cartridge Producers Small Print, when it relates to a Service by the Manufacturer, where the offer has an option as follows:

To receive a Exchange Model following a the old model being Traded In.                  This is mainly aimed at a Cartridge that is deemed ready to undergo a refurbishment as a result of many hours of usage.

The Manufacturer offers a 'Retip' , 'Refurbishment' or 'Rebuild' Service on Cart's from their Models Only, or extend this service to a Variety of Brands they are not involved with, which will indirectly become a Bespoke Work and hence a Bespoke Model will be produced.

In any of the the above scenario's the likelihood is that the offer from the Manufacturer will be to supply a Cart' that when returned to the user, has Parts used during the work undertaken that are 'equivalent' to the part that has been exchanged.

My understanding is that the 'equivalent' will be more of a reference to, and limited to the term 'function' and not filter into any other area of what the term 'equivalent' can refer to.

There is also the suggestion that when the Cart' is returned to the user, It will be received under the pretence. that as a result of the 'equivalent' parts being used to restore the supplied model, the least on offer is that the 'function' on offer is the same as the Supplied Cart' and the pretence will also put forward the suggestion that extends to inferring the returned Cart' may be an improved Cart'.

I take it there are Phono Cartridge Technicians who feel if their chosen parts are used to replace parts used by other Technicians from different organisations, they are quite within their rights to infer the Cart' is now at least on parity with the non Bespoke Version, and that the use of chosen parts for the Bespoke Version has potentially produced an Improved working model.     

Pinda, nice ''reproduction'' of what manufacturer will or are supposed

to do. But my arguments are  pointed out in 4 kinds. Each about

specific ''interpretation problem''. A correct discussion should address

all or some of my arguments denying their truth. Mulveling deed not

address a single one. But he expressed his opinion about his, say,

opponent . He also stated to understand Raul ''exactly''. But

without mentioning when and if  Raul ever addressed MY arguments.

You should also address  my argument about ''original parts'',

their identity so we can know which  are available  as styli and

 cantilevers to manufacturers as well retipers. This does

not apply for what individual retipers may have in their stock.

They don't supply other with their styli. So what they own is not

relevant for  availability in general. We were not able to discover

where Replicant  is produced while we assume that this stylus

is not available to everyone. So my general statement that all

manufacturer as well retipers get their styli and cantilevers from

either Namiki or Ogura is still actual. The point then about ''retip''

is why an manufacturer should do this job (aka gluing cantilever/stylus

combo in the joint pipe)  better than an retipper? 

 

 

' Equivalent ' is the Key Word.

The 'Retip' Service with Adept Technicians to support the work undertaken, has full confidence in their capability of offering a service, as to whether their supply of a Styli and then attaching it to a Cantilever is carried out and completed in a manner that is equivalent to any other Service be it competitor 'retip' service or a Phono Cartridge Manufacturer.   

With this confidence in abundance from certain third party 'retip' services, the Manufacturer is not required to the task, the choices made for who does the 'retip' belongs to the Cart' owner, and them only.

Obviously there will be those that are willing to express their firmly held opinions on such practices, and challenge the choices made by others when their choice is not aligned. 

pinda, Equivalent= equal but not identical. Like Siames twins (grin).

You don't mean that retipers can deliver equal work as the manufacturer,

because this is question about belief , like religion . 

I was stupid not ask mulveling who  is able to understand Raul

perfectly to explain to us what ''refreshing of cartridge '' may mean.

''refurbishing'' will also do . More in particular which parts of an

cart are refreshed and what will happen to those which are not

refreshed?  Then we  will be also in position or state to understand

dover' s ''rebuild''. But this ''term'' may have some deeper meaning.

More religious than religious.

'' Í think that...'' or ''I believe that'' is not an valid argument.

Valid argument is : ''the assertion or argument of my opponent

is not true''. The formula is ''If P then p&q''. That is if the premise

or assertion is true than derivation (deduction) p& q are also

true. But  ''If P is not true than neither are p&q''. 

We don't need to refer to someone psychology . We can simply

refer to statements made by our opponent. 

Those are ''logical rules'' valid for all languages . So the question of

''native language'' is irrelevant. Science is universal which means 

independent from the language of individual scientist. BTW translation

of scientific works is much more easy than literature not to mention

lyrics.

''Straw man'' qualifications are known as ''testimonium paupertatis''. 

 

mulveling, I asked you to explain Raul's ''refreshement  or carts'' in

the context of your statement that you understand him ''prefect'' in

contradistinction to nandric. I have not (yet) seen your answer.

However more problematic for you is the fact that you missed

my point. My point was the fact that he dare to speak about others

''level of knowledge'' while his English suggest that he missed

high school education. Knowledge and (level) of education are

connected. You totally missed my point but he can impossible

missed my point about proving that I was wrong. He knows how 

to refer to his previous post and does this very frequently despite

all of his repetitions so this prove should not cause any problem.

For an low educated person is not very smart to talk about others

''level of knowledge''. It is not possible not to admit as members

plebeians as you and Raul but both of you should know their place.

 

UNIVERSAL versus NUMERICAL QUANTIFIER.

European commission without consulting  27 member states

determined that ALL immigrants have right for asylum procedure.

Despite the fact that each country has it own right to determine the

amount of immigrants in its own legislation.

Immigrants from 12 and on age were smarter than the whole commission.

They all knew in advance to  have no chance to get asylum, But

their intention was to reach Europe and than walking from Greece,

Italy and Spain to the North countries with preference  for Germany

and UK. The consequence is that in each EU country there are

much more illegal than legal immigrants. With added difficulty that

their mother countries refuse to accept them back.

What is the relevance  for our forum?

Well the questions like ''which MM cart is best'', ''which phono-pre

is the best''? etc, ''best ever stuff''. 

Those question use UNIVERSAL quantifier while the possible answer

can be given only in terms of NUMERICAL.

Say Raul with his, say, 50 MM carts can only give his opinion about

those 50 carts (numerical) and not about ALL mm cartridges.

The same apply for, say dover with his, say 12 MC carts. 

But by their answer to the mentioned question they newer mention

the numbers involved. This means that they have no idea about

difference between universal and numerical quantifier. But we got

the answers: ADC 26/27 and  Dynavector 17 d among all the carts

ever produced.

 

@nandric what exactly is your problem? Surely you don’t want to let those ‘what is the (absolute) best?’ folks get on your nerves? It’s a way to pass the time, but a futile and pointless (pun intended) discussion.

In case you’re wondering, I’m with you on the potential worth of retippings or refurbishings by others than the manufacturer. Who cares if it isn’t ‘original’ anymore? The sonic result should be the ultimate arbiter. From my own experience with over 40 different MC cartridges, I’m not ashamed to admit that two of my ‘best’ cartridges are ‘Frankenstein’s’ as some like to call them: a Kiseki Lapis Lazuli refurbished by vdHul (vdH tip on boron) and a Krell / Miyabi KC 200 by an ‘unknown’ (Ogura PA tip on boron, presumed not to be original).

So it’s not really a conundrum if you let your ears decide. But in a tumultuous sea of diverting opinions, philosophies and beliefs fighting for your attention (and money), learning to trust one’s own hearing is not at all easy. But ultimately it’s our only chance of audio ‘redemption’. Relax and take care.

edgewear, My problem? I addressed forum problems with self-appointed

''experts'' or ''authorities'' who have no idea what they are talking about.

Is the task of this forum not to provide objective information?

In my introduction of this thread I try to explain which assumptions are

made which are not true. That is ''if premise are not true'' how can

derivation from those premise be true? 

My ''general statement'' or assertion was that only two jewel company

produce styli such that manufacturer as well retipers get they styli

from the self source. JCarr also named only those two. But I also

started the other thread about Replicant in which my own assumption

is questioned. Alas we were not able to discover who produces those

styli as well if those styli are available to all manufacturer and retipers. 

There is old (Roman?) saying ; '' in the land of the blind ,one-eyed is

king''.  You obviously missed my points . I hope you can ''see now''. 

 

 

Dear Nandric, if only it were true that forums like this have the task of providing objective information. It’s all subjective opinions and beliefs, like everywhere else in social media. The folks with real knowledge have mostly left the ‘building’ amidst all the nonsense, a few exceptions notwithstanding. Too many egos making too much noise. Sad but true.

Your assumption that there are only a few jewel companies providing styli is most likely correct. We tend to forget how small our little universe really is, so it’s not a market that could sustain many more competitors. Yet it’s hard to imagine that Ogura and Namiki are the only ones, even with Gyger out of the picture as some have suggested. As you asked elsewhere, who would be making those Replicant 100 or vdHul styli now?

But even this assumption doesn’t tell us very much. For example, the Ogura PA tip comes in different shapes. Apart from the retipped KC 200 I own originals of Mark Levinson MLC-1 and Red Rose Petal (both versions of Miyabi Standard) and Miyabi MCA, all of which supposedly adopted the same Ogura tip. Yet none of these have the exact same shape. I have it on good authority that Ogura used no less than a dozen different shapes, which apparently were all marketed as PA. It seems Takeda san was prone to experimentation in search of the perfect sound and used several of these shapes. So in this case there were several ‘original parts’ and ‘identities’. So what?

As a music listener I don’t really care as long as it sounds good. I’m certainly no expert but I have no reason to believe there is any special magic involved in (re)building a cartridge, only human creativity, experience and craftsmanship. For the most part(s) the sonic result will depend on the designer’s or (re)builder’s level of expertise. If you find such a person, you can pretty much depend that they’ll do a good job in respecting and perhaps even improving the cartridge’s sonic performance. Exchanging notes on the work of these experts is probably more useful than establishing how many sources they can turn to for parts.

So let’s for a moment return to the example of the Kiseki. It’s evident that vdHul did a wonderful job with my sample, but that was done many years ago. When it requires the inevitable retip would I send it to the newly established Kiseki brand for reasons of so called ‘originality’? No way! These new Kiseki’s are most likely not designed and built by the same person who did the old ones and based on the reported quality control issues they would probably ruin it.

@nandric
elegant intervention; we may communicate with smoke messages for future topics to limit understanding to Cheyenne and Navajo only.

Cir di capimi: no tu puedis cjacarà come che ti par se no tu puedis la a cagà! and now translate the sentence into italics for me.

edgewear, Deed you ever try to sell an retiped cart? As you state 

you are very satisfy with retips done by Van den Hul. Van den Hul

was obviously proud of his work and made his inscription on the

cover plate. This may be seen as act of courage (aka nothing to

hide). But the owners of his carts with his retips can't sell them

because ''retips'' are  considered to be inferior in comparison

with ''rebuild'' or ''refreshed kind'' with the argument of ''original''

versus ''not original'' styli. That is to say that manufacturer use their

 own unique styli. This however is an myth. Manufacturer buy their

styli as do retipers by the same producer. Curiously you are

contradicting  your own ''pro retip'' position by suggesting more

shapes than can be proven. On those shapes patents are claimed

as Van den Hul and Gyger demonstrate. Besides ''original parts''

imply their identification which is connected with identity . Even for

logician an difficult ''subject''.

I try to reduce complexity of identity to ownership relation because

everyone knows what ownership means as well how one can prove

to own something. This means proving one to one identity between

owner and object of ownership. Both must have their own identity.

''Subjective valuation''?  The old Roman already stated ; de gustibus

non disputantum est. 

Besides what sense would asked advises have?  

best-grove, English grammar does not specify the connective ''IS"

between Subject and Predicate in an sentence

But logic does:

1, Substitution of an object under one notion (nandric is human)

2. Inclusion relation between two classes or sets the smaller under

    bigger. Horses are 4 legs animals. Americans are part of the

    world  population.

3, Identity relation : a=b; 2+2 = 4

4  exsitence (being) ''God is''

 

Which ''IS'' do you have in mind?

OMG  

best-groove, all information in this forum is for free. If you and other

want amusement in addition for free you and the others should look

elsewhere.

''Meaning'' and ''reference''.

One need to understand an sentence or statement to grasp  its

meaning. But the so called ''reality'' is not linguistic . That is why 

one also speaks about ''extra -linguistic reality''. The so called

''correspondence with reality''  is needed for an statement to be true,

Well the assumptions or assertions about ''original parts''  are

based on meaning but not on reality. The reality is that all styli and

cantilevers are not produced by manufacturer but by, say, two

Japanese Jewel companies. So all manufacturer as well retippers

get those from the same source. The expression ''original'' may have

''emotive meaning'' but this meaning does not correspond with

reality. Besides ''original parts'' presuppose identification which is

not linguistic but ''realistic'' in the empirical  sense. In this sense the

expression ''original''  make no sense, 

 

As the subject is to be focused on Styli, Cantilevers and Original, the proposal that a Styli and Cantilever assembly is a product from a limited number of Companies that are considered being a Supplier of the parts for a Manufacturers Supply Chain in the procurement of the overall items to be assembled, does seem to have a relevance in todays Manufacture for a Cartridge, even though it is known there are Cartridge Manufacture Companies and 'Retip' Services that as apart of a present Production or Refurbishment Service, offer a Bespoke Styli >Cantilever assembly that is not an assembly produced by the limited number of Companies that are being referred to.

For the Original Element, the further back in time one will go to review the variations across the Cartridge Models that were offered in a Market Place, where a much larger range of options were to be encountered. 

There will be many descriptions supplied by the Manufacturer that will suggest that there is a Bespoke Part to be found in a particular Cartridge, and a part that was most likely produced by a specialist with access to the materials selected or even a in house assembly of the selected parts.

Then there is the other consideration where a design is evolving and Parts are being included and deselected , either on paper or after thorough assessment through demonstrations and testing.

Parts used at the design stages and deselected, would still warrant a status of a Original Part, but not the part selected for the model to be the,  'Piggy, that went to market'.

Is it not possible that when a challenge is made by a owner of a quite old model of Cartridge, where there is a rejection of the idea of using a Third Party 'retip' Service,

The challenge is due to the idea the 'retip' Service is going to use parts that are not related to the Cartridge Parts used in the era of production, and the most likely place to acquire these parts is with the original manufacturer, or at the least get a sympathetic service supplied from the Manufacturer that is considering the Cartridges age and uniqueness due to the Vintage.

From experience of taking the time to read the terms of the Service offered by a Manufacturer for their refurbishment service, bear in mind I have not read all Manufacturer's terms, I will say once more the used word 'equivalent' is the get out of jail card.

There is not going to be a Cartridge produced that is a match in parts used to the model being refurbished, there is going to be parts used for the refurbishment, that are assessed, hopefully by an adept technician to be an 'equivalent' part. There will be a function parity only.  In a 'Nutshell' one more Bespoke Refurbishment is produced of a Cartridge.

This Bespoke Refurbishment from a Manufacturer or from a 'retip' Service if both carried out by adept technicians will most likely have very closely match similarities as the modern supply chains are ubiquitous in their presence and do not seem to be an exclusive entity, hence the offered parts end up being available to numerous parties.

@nandric  good to see you back, with your learned descriptions and following mind boggle to boot.              

 

  

 

Dear pindac, I assume you are familiar with the saying about ''rules

and exceptions''. I ''covered'' the case of retippers and their ''possible''

stock of not anymore produced styli (Geiger, VDH, etc.). There is

no evidence that manufacturer also keep ''old styli'' in their stock.

General statements, so to speak, don't cover all possible cases.

My intention was to dismiss prejudice about retips. Think of new styli

in comparison with, say, elliptical kind. My experience is that new styli

are much better. Besides ''old kind'' can be worn out. 

@nandric
>The reality is that all styli and cantilevers are not produced by manufacturer but by, say, two Japanese Jewel companies.

This is more likely to be true for styli, less so for cantilevers and the other components that comprise the cantilever assembly. In my earlier post on this thread (dated 12-24-2021), I listed multiple examples of how components can be (and are) provided to Namiki / Ogura by cartridge manufacturers. Namiki / Ogura do not have the right to resell components or materials provided to them by a cartridge manufacturer (or designed by a cartridge manufacturer) unless there is a written agreement that allows this.

To add to the previous examples, when there was a shortage of boron a few years ago, some companies who depended completely on the two Japanese Jewel companies for supplies of boron were forced to cease production of certain products <https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/jico-sas-is-currently-out-of-production.500921/>. The two Japanese Jewel companies did not have boron production facilities, and were therefore incapable of replenishing their inventories unless they could first find alternative material suppliers (which took time).

However other companies, including Lyra, possessed their own inventory of boron, and were able to supply the two Japanese Jewel companies with cantilever materials so that production remained unaffected.

Although the angle at which the stylus is mounted to the cantilever does not depend on the cartridge manufacturer supplying key components to Namiki / Ogura, it should be tailored to the rake angle that the cantilever will assume relative to the LP, so that the dynamic SRA (with VTF applied, and playing an LP) becomes 90º.

For example, if the target cantilever rake angle is 20º, the stylus-to-cantilever angle should be 70º; a 21º cantilever rake angle requires a stylus-to-cantilever angle of 69º, a 22º cantilever rake angle requires a stylus-to-cantilever angle of 68º, a 23º cantilever rake angle requires a stylus-to-cantilever angle of 67º, etc. IOW, the stylus mounting angle plus the cantilever rake angle should always sum to 90º.

Although many cartridges have cantilever rake angles in the vicinity of 20º~25º, there are cartridges with cantilever rake angles of 28º (Ortofon) or 30º (Avid). Fitting a stylus mounted for use with a 20º cantilever rake angle in a cartridge designed for a 30º cantilever rake angle will cause a 10º SRA error.

This is why cartridge manufacturers typically specify customized stylus mounting angles to suit the body or cantilever rake angles of a given cartridge design.

That said, it is possible for a retipper to accomplish much the same thing - by either stocking a full range of cantilever angles (60º:30º, 61º:29º, 62º:28º, 63º:27º, 64º:26º, 65º:25º, 66º:24º, 67º:23º, 68º:22º, 69º:21º, 70º:20º, and this is ignoring vintage cartridge models which may have had cantilever rake angles of around 15º), or individually installing each stylus onto its cantilever once the recipient cartridge is in hand, so that the final, dynamic SRA becomes 90º.

Regarding rebuilds vs. retips, let me first state that different manufacturers (especially those whose native tongue is not English) may use the same words to mean different things. In fact, some companies may use the terms 'rebuild' and 'retip' interchangeably.

Personally, I consider 'retips' as meaning replacements of the stylus (and cantilever, if it is required), only. These are mostly performed by non-original retippers, since the original manufacturer is likely to prefer a full rebuild (reasons and explanations given below).

After a cartridge is played for hundreds or thousands of hours, more than just the stylus or cantilever are likely to become worn, bent or broken. Suspension wires are prone to take on a permanent set, dampers frequently lose resilience or harden, joint-pipes can bend or corrode, coil wires can short out or break open, signal output pins can become bent or twisted so that they spin freely, magnets can lose strength, screwhole threads can become stripped, polepieces can corrode or crack, anodizing and plating can come off cartridge bodies, and so on.

A rebuild is when the original manufacturer performs a 100% replacement of all components that are likely to see any wear or degradation. Rebuilds are what manufacturers prefer, since the cartridge will be returned to as-new, perfectly functioning condition. And since it takes longer to tear down a cartridge and send out all of the pieces for deep cleaning / rewinding / replating, often the manufacturer will replace the used cartridge with a brand-new one.

Rebuilds also give the manufacturer a chance to incorporate any improvements which may have been developed after the recipient cartridge was produced - for instance when Lyra made a revised 'i' spec Titan, any Titan that was returned to us for a rebuild was automatically upgraded to the 'i' spec (unless the owner specifically requested otherwise).
We are following the same policy today with the Lambda spec Atlas and Etna - any Atlas or Etna returned to us for a rebuild will be upgraded to the Lambda spec, unless the owner specifies against the conversion.

@pindac regarding 'equivalent parts', again I cannot speak for other manufacturers, but Lyra can perform 100% authentic rebuilds for any Lyra-branded cartridge that was made from around the year 2000 and later. No equivalent parts involved or needed.

For earlier models that used 'Ceralloy' cantilevers, although we originally bought kilograms of the metal, we either have exhausted our inventory or are very close to running out.
My opinion is that a manufacturer should acquire at least enough inventory of exotic non-standard materials or key components to support servicing for at least 10 years, preferably longer. The exception would be if the product was specifically offered as a limited-production run, where it was understood by both manufacturer and buyer that as supplies of key materials / components were depleted, production would cease. Such cases are quite rare.

hope this helps

@nandric , reripped? I do believe that is a digital term. Are you converting?

I also think you need to delve a little farther into neuroscience. You are assuming terrry is right handed.

@jcarr 

           Thank you for your input and making it known that the Lyra Cartridge Brand are able to make the parts selected from the time of the design and final production of their models available to be used on returned Cartridges for a very long period following the Models release.

It is quite comforting to know that if a used Lyra was purchased by myself, it can be returned to a function that will be very closely or even a match to the model when purchased new.

In relation to the 'Ceralloy' used on the earlier designs from the Lyra Company, would Lyra offer a rebuild of a Cartridge from this era, to be offered to a customer where a 'equivalent ' Cartridge will be the proposal for the outcome of the rebuild and where a technicians assessment of the alternative parts to be used would qualify the term 'equivalent ' as being the correct description ?

If the Rebuild did take place, would the end product produced, become a bespoke version of the model with the 'Ceralloy' material used in the design ?

From my end, I would not have any concerns about the Bespoke Design produced, my experience has shown this outcome can be very advantageous to the end user.