I am getting back into vinyl, listening to “garage sale” finds and also new albums that I have been picking up. I have a nice old Linn Sondek LP12 with the felt mat. Every time I go to remove a record from the spindle or flip the record, static electricity grabs the felt mat and it sticks like a magnet. I have to very carefully flip the felt mat at the corner with my finger but one of these times I’m going to slip and smudge or scratch a record.
I’ve seen the “Milty Zerostat” and seem to remember this product from back in the day. I see that it is still made and there is one eBay vendor that has them for $77. Is this my best bet? I thought Michael Fremor talked about these in one of his videos.
Are there other products I should look at to reduce static electricity on my records? Thanks for any help you can give.
I’m about ready to try the brush sweeper grounding arm thingy as suggested by
mijostyn. I was thinking it’s just more stuff to bother with, but as it is my routine is .... take out the record...it always has electric potential as judged by the sensitive toilet paper test even from "non static" sleeves. Shoot it slowly with the Milty. Genuflect. Roll it with a silicon roller, but that adds electrons back so then shoot with the Milty again, concentrate on the breath and being present, then place the vinyl on the platter quickly and close the cover before more crap gets on it and certainly don’t look at it under the microscope because doing that adds more crap. Enjoy the music while imagining the microdust getting under the edges of the dust cover on the air currents destroying all the previous work. Relax if possible.
So maybe it’s just easier to use a sweeper brush arm thing. Maybe I should just give in and accept that digital is "OK" enough.
Ossicle, you obviously stole your method from Merlin.
We just returned from our first trip to Tokyo to visit our son since before the pandemic (4 years ago was out last visit). Pursuant to our new obsession with static charge, I searched for a Furutech Destat III hoping for a significant savings vs US price. You can buy just about any Furutech product at any decent audio salon in Tokyo, EXCEPT the Destat III. They’ve never even heard of it.
Pardon me if this has already been mentioned but...
One way to gauge the static charge on records is this: Take the record to the bathroom. Yes you read that right, the bathroom. Unroll 12.337 inches of the toilet paper from the roll. It must be this length or substandard results will certainly happen. Holding the record parallel to the extended toilet paper note how much the paper is attracted to the record.
Then do whatever you seem fit to make it so the paper doesn’t get pulled onto the record. In my case I use a Milty zerostat while slowly repeating the phrase "Be gone you electron". I think the talking to the record is key to the effectiveness of this method. One day I will try it without the talking and see if it still works.
@lewm, I looked into static electricity meters. The ones used in industry are very expensive and hard to justify. Charge levels that are not painfully obvious are of little consequence. I have found subjective findings good enough for our purposes.
I am fortunate to have a wonderful static generating machine, the vacuum clamping mechanism of my turntable. On removing untreated records from the platter you can see the sparks jump if the lights are down as well as hear them. The grounded sweep arm will discharge to upper surface but not the lower one. This led me to develop a record cleaning solution that prevents the formation of static. It works a treat as the British would say, but it is only appropriate for use with vacuum cleaning machines. Air drying will leave too much residue on the record and you will see it collect on the stylus. Vacuum drying leaves so little the stylus remains clean. I also think the records are quieter after treatment. Once I get my act together I'll make before and after files for comparison.
That's for EMF, not static charge. With it you can hope to measure the strength of the field around any motor or other electromagnetic device, but not static charge.
Mijo, you’re not going to get believable data from your questionnaire, apart from the info about geography, unless or until all respondents are equipped with a good static meter and know how to use it properly, that is never. But this discussion leads me to buy a meter, just to satisfy my own curiosity.
I pulled out a bunch of older records I have not played in a while and checked the ones in paper sleeves for static. None of them were charged. The one that was was an outlier for some unknown reason. So, transfer of electrons from paper to PVC by pressure only does not appear to happen. Antinn, the grounded sweep are is still a very valuable device. It sweeps any incidental dust away from the stylus and discharge any static the record has collected for whatever reason. I have not had either a static or cleanliness problem in the 40 years I have been using one. It would have to be grounded anyway. If it were not just brushing the record might create static. I'll be taking my black light home for the weekend:)
Mijo Do not think I could live anywhere "less dry"... Florida...lol.
And the very few affected records are NOT charged coming out of the sleeves, yes the hairs on back of hands/arms is a very effective technique, I use it all the time at work to "feel" the amount of static in the film we produce. Of course we have static meters for this as well but after 40 years my "armometer" is pretty well calibrated...lol
Interesting, I have a UV light at the office. I'll check it out. That patent was issued in 1974 during the decline of RCA. I do not know if they sold compound to other companies. Methylammonium Methosulfate was added as an anti static agent. Fabric Softener! I can not find any reference of it being added to PVC for records today but compounds are usually guarded secrets.
PS/Not sure if this was the intent - but you may have accidently questioned the value of you conductive brush - but, your testing during winter may show very different results. In the meantime, I use a UV light for cleanliness inspection (10Watt, very short exposure), and its amazing on the variability of the vinyl composition - the best virgin is uniform in color, while the repressed or lower quality can be a kaleidoscope of fluorescent colors.
Orthomead and Uberwaltz, it may be the way the record is stored. The record may be coming out of it's sleeve already charged. Check your records before play. Just wave the back of your hand slowly across the record. If there is static there you will feel and see your hairs stand up. This is actually a very sensitive way of detecting static in a qualitative sense. Note what kind of sleeve the record came out of. I suspect that electrons will transfer from paper to vinyl under pressure without rubbing. Uberwaltz, where do you live? Very Dry? Yes, orthomead. Ground your bearing. Graphite is conductive so that should do it. Antinn, I do not think modern vinyl has any anti static additives. Not entirely sure of this. The best way to discharge the record is with a conductive brush wired to ground. I use a sweep arm. You could take a conductive hand held brush. drill and tap the handle and wire it to ground. Holding it will not work well even if you are holding a ground wire in the other hand. The resistance from one hand to the other is 23 megaohms! You can have the brush wired to ground and keep it right next to the turntable ready to use. Keep a felt pad adhered to a flat surface nearby to wipe the brush on. The sweep arm does this during play and sweeps any dust away from the path of the stylis. Set up correctly it will track right along with the tonearm.
orthomead. I am now convinced it is just a peculiar material composition. The two records that were affected the other day did exactly the same today. None of the preceding or following records exhibited the static build up in the slightest.
As far as I am concerned that is the end of it for my curiosity.
@mijostyn. Nottingham indicates the platter is composed of "carbon graphite" on their website. @antinn. I did not check voltage potentials. When speaking with the dealer after installation, he had indicated he had a similar problem that was eradicated with the grounding wire. @uberwaltz I have had the exact same experience, and it seems to be album related. I suspect that it is a property of the particular vinyl composition.
I never discharge myself before handing records. As I never have any static issues. Like I said this is more a just curious inquiry. There is no static in the records prior to play, only a few odd ones seem to generate a small amount AFTER play. Just enough to lift a very thin mat an inch or so off the platter. Hardly earth moving....lol.
Vinyl formulation is more likely but who knows? I had two records in a row today, I will try those pair again tomorrow.
If its completely random - then the only consistent item is you. You may be charging the record which could explain why the next record is fine - you discharged yourself. Prior to handling a record do you always first discharge yourself by touching something metal that is preferably grounded?
I do have a serious question here and sorry if it has been discussed. Not overly concerned with static per se as I rarely see it but......
I do very occasional have one or two odd records that have built up static as they played and on removal pick up the mat a little. So what would account for this? Meaning why might I get just one record out of say 10 played that builds up static during play? Composition of the vinyl itself? When it does occur usually the next record played is just fine. And no I do not believe it is a slow buildup as it can be days before it might happen. Or it could be two in a row. Not troubled by it at all just curious.
(I am reposting since I accidently addressed this to wrong person. I deleted my prior post.)
To follow on what @mijostyn said, MIL-HDBK-263B does state - "Some metals, can create significant charges from triboelectric generation. Aluminum, when rubbed with a common plastic can generate substantial electrostatic charges." This then potentially may provide some insight into what you have experienced as follows:
The Archromat from what I read appears to be essentially porous acrylic mat with solid top/bottom faces/sheet. But acrylic has a fairly large triboelectric difference with PVC so one could the predict the opposite of what you experienced which then adds to the observation that @mijostyn made that the mat is insulating the record from the platter.
When you grounded the platter bearing - did you measure the resistance (simple multimeter will work) from the platter surface to the wall ground point? When I grounded my VPI 2" aluminum platter/bearing I had some issues getting it to work for me. The wire type and length can have an effect - my wire length was 8ft. Realistically, providing the lowest impedance path to ground is the goal and that is all about surface area not gauge. Tinned-copper braided cable at 1/4-inch wide is readily available and can be used to easily assemble a low impedance ground cable using appropriate end-connectors, 1/4-inch PET expandable braided sleeving for appearance and protection, and heat shrink to seal the ends. A 1/-4-inch wide tinned-copper braided cable measured about 0.4-ohms while a single gauge (18-ga) wire ground measure about 1.2-ohms. I was able to get the platter to outlet resistance to about 1.5-ohms; and I had to ground it to the source of power to the turntable motor for best results. Just some thoughts, Neil
I use a milty zerostat and change the sleeves to an anti static sleeve when I buy vinyl.... I also use a rega RP8 deck and have had no issues with static now. Before the felt mat used to stick when I changed records or sides.... Not anymore
Along with the record products I've also used Static Guard for laundry on the carpet in my listening room. It lasts for a couple hours and greatly reduces the static charge when handling my records.
Lewm, sorry I missed your last post. 1:250 is a huge transformer. The 1:100 Sowter transformer is very large and is +- 3 dB 50 Hz to 18 kHz. I cross over to subs at 125 Hz which is quite high. 500 Hz is well into the midrange. 256 Hz is about middle C. I have not had the chance to open up a Sound Labs interface yet. Can you just wire around the controls to eliminate them from the circuit without modifying the cross over network? I do not like pots in speakers signal path. Bi amping the transformers is an interesting approach. If I do Sound Labs I will try to wire past the controls and use one big amp like an Atma- Sphere MA 2. I will be able to correct any response aberrations with room control.
jro1903, yes the Zerostat works but the trick is eliminating static formation period. Any time your record develops a static charge it is drawing in dust and pollution like a magnet. Interesting orthomed. Isolating the record from the platter stopped the static formation. Can you fine out what the platter is made of? Both cartridges use a non conductive boron cantilever. I do not think the Achromat is discharging the record. I think it is isolating it from the platter. If the material the platter is made from is high in the triboelectric series that would explain your problem. Most of my records are in rice paper sleeves but I still find an occasional one in paper. Last night I pulled out Dylan's Nashville Skyline. I have not played it for several years. Sure enough it had a pretty decent charge on it. All my records are discharged during play. They always go back in the sleeve in neutral condition but this one developed a charge over two years just sitting in my collection!! My records are stored in a special compartmentalized record cabinet. They are packed in so there is always some compression but not so tight that they are hard to remove. This Keeps the records flat. I know that putting a record into a sleeve then pulling it out at a humidity of 54% does not create a measurable static charge. This would leave me to believe that under pressure for a prolonged period of time paper will transfer electrons to PVC without rubbing. The conclusion is there are multiple ways records collect static leading to multiple solutions. The first is put all your records in anti static sleeves. Sleeves that will not transfer electrons to vinyl. I just ordered another 50 from Sleeve City to get the stragglers.
I don’t mean to be rude, being new here and all, but wow you sure are an argumentative bunch! @masi61 I would recommend that you test some things out for yourself... it seems you have several options from some very helpful posts. I again would recommend the Milty. Why? First off it is a trades tool that is proven to eliminate static. It’s not witch craft or snake oil designed to part record collectors from their cash. Buy one and if it doesn’t do what it’s designed for then it’s defective and you should return for another. Try a trades store, I bought mine from Screwfix in the UK but there will be equivalents worldwide I’m sure. Ok back to records... For those records seemingly welded to the inner sleeve with static, the milty offers a very quick and effective method to reduce the static. You can test the effectiveness of the tool, and the method I suggested, by statically charging a balloon or some old damaged record before holding close to a teaspoon of ground pepper and salt. Watch it lift those grains. Now fire the milty at your chosen statically charged item... watch those grains fall. There are variations on the experiment, have some fun. Now I’m not saying that the record won’t gather static again over time (I haven’t witnessed it) but I am saying it’s sufficiently discharged for an uninterrupted playing session. This is my advice and based purely on personal experience. Finally welcome back to the wonderful world of records! Peace. J-Ro
I have been reading this post with great interest, because I too was plagued by static. The issue became apparent when I upgraded my Nottingham Ace Space to the heavy platter configuration which is a heavier and thicker platter which sits on top of the original platter. In the heavy configuration, the thin foam mat which sat atop the original platter is discarded and the vinyl is placed directly on the platter. Nottingham makes a big deal about no other interface between platter and vinyl using the heavy set up. Shortly after this I upgraded my cartridge from a Kisecki Purple Heart to a Van den Hul Crimson -well worth it. At this point I started noticing notable "static cling" to the platter when removing an lp. I was certain that there was some friction between the two platter infaces as the source of the static cling. A unusual property of the Nottingham tables is that there is no on/off switch. The motor is constantly running, but is low torque so the platter doesn't move until it is started and stopped by hand. I had used a Furutech de stat II for years prior and even it wouldn't completely eliminate the static after play. FWIW, I ultrasonically clean all records and house them in MoFi sleeves. I use the audioquest brush before and after each play. I proved to myself that it wasn't an inter platter friction issue by starting, running the turntable without the stylus engaged, and stopping the turntable several times over a 40 minute period before removing the record. My highly advanced "arm hair detector" was used to measure the static. There was none. I only had significant static develop after play, and generally only after the second side of an lp. Prior to flipping the record, the de stat and carbon brush was used on the most recently played side, then repeated on the flip side right before needle drop. So mijostyn, you may want to try playing both sides and then checking for static. I contacted Nottingham and they asked me to place a ground wire between the lower bearing and a wall ground. Made no difference. At this point I was quite frustrated because the static when removing the lp was quite audible. I wondered If all the time spent cleaning the vinyl was worthless. I purchased an achromat and placed it on the heavy platter, adjusted VTA and the problem is 95% gone. Only slight hair waver on occasion. Not sure if this helps at all, but it was my experience.
Exactly. It seem that some people have more trouble than others and we may be able to pick up on certain factors that are more important. It is funny, in analysing the situation I looked up the conductivity of boron. It is not. I was thinking that a conductive cantilever like aluminum might actually lead electrons down to the record. But the opposite is also true Once the charge gets high enough on the record it will start discharging to whatever is closest and conductive. Lewm for certain knows this. When us ESL guys get the bias voltage too high you hear snapping as the diaphragms arc to the grids. Fortunately this does not hurt modern ESLs at all. The baseline condition is the hardest variable to account for because in the absence of a path to ground static charges can last indefinitely. Indeed it is possible for the effect to be additive until it becomes obvious. I think the vinyl is not as important a factor. The anti static vinyls of the 60's were essentially marketing. My dad's old Rec O Kut/ESL/Empire table created static like crazy and it did it to all the records. He had a large classical collection full of London's, RCA's and Columbia's. The treatment back then was to wipe the record with a damp cloth. They had "anti Static" felt cloths impregnated with something which felt like an oil but they were messy and got contaminated fast. Once you washed the any anti static effect they had was lost. That was about it for record cleaning back then. All records are at least 98% vinyl and I really do not think there is much difference between them as far as static is concerned. Also, people do not only play one type of vinyl so I think any effect would average out. so, I think we can boil it down to Location (weather),seasonality, The severity of the problem, Turntable, cartridge and arm, type of mat, Anti static methods used, How do you store your records. How would you rate your static problem. This is just to give us an idea where to look. Further work will have to be down to nail the causes down. Like you I think humidity is going to be a big determinant and I do plan on rerunning my experiment next winter. But humidity is not the only factor it is just a coenzyme if you will. The electrons are coming from somewhere along one of maybe multiple paths. Why solve the problem? Static electricity is great for business. Record don't get dirty because people throw them in the dirt.
The root cause gets complicated because the following are some of the known (and unknown) variables:
1. Humidity. Redo your experiment this winter with humidity ~35%, and I suspect you will see a difference; not only from the environment but from your own hydration level. How are people maintaining their records - conductive brushes can work in reverse.
2. The record material. What records did you use? The formulations are all over the place - is it virgin vinyl (no repressed); is it colored, what is the weight. Very high purity heavy vinyl records have been noted to develop static more easily. Some older formulations from the late 1960's early 1970's were known to be very quiet.
3. What is the platter & mat? Is the platter belt drive, direct drive or rim drive? Is the platter a source - it 'may' be. For the mat, its not about through the material conductivity but surface conductivity. I gave up on my very thin leather mat not because of static but because the suede side up was collecting lint from the record; and it eventually saturated and now giving back to the record - you can't see this with white light - but I saw it with UV light. Right now I just using a Technics 3mm rubber, and its does not attract lint which says it may contain a fair amount of carbon black making it at least surface dissipative. But, I am considering buying a 2mm 3-layer ESD mat that is vinyl on top/bottom but has a homogenous carbon layer making it mostly conductive (from an ESD perspective) and just cut for a platter mat.
4. What was the baseline condition of the record - was it cleaned in a manner that will remove the static charge that is common from the initial pressing? What record sleeve is used? Was it cleaned with a low-residue cleaning process that can make the record more prone to developing a static charge - yeah, the double edge sword of cleanliness.
5. What cartridge was used? This is a bit of leap, but if there is static on the record, will an aluminum cantilever which is conductive 'help' to dissipate the charge? Its very close to the record so there is the 'possibility' of corona effect discharge. Other cantilever are not conductive.
I ask again, how are you measuring static charge? Because you cannot measure it with an ordinary voltmeter.
As to my speakers, the point I was trying to make is that a single full range transformer with a step-up ratio of 1:90 is insufficient to move the massive diaphragm in order to give a linear response on the low end. But the "low end" instead gradually decays below a certain frequency which must be close to 500Hz or 1kHz; it’s just lacking energy. (I made no measurements to determine the frequency at which response falls away, when I tried this. Just listening tests.) Subwoofers and even most good woofers are not going to make up for that problem, in a pleasing way. Sound Lab and before them, Acoustat, dealt with this problem of driving a very large panel by using two transformers, as you know very well, one for bass and one for treble with a passive crossover dividing frequencies. When I added back the SL bass transformer, which I have guessed is about 1:250 in voltage step-up, now you have thunderous ESL bass. The SL bass transformer by itself falls away at about 2kHz at its top end, according to my actual measurements. SL knew what it was doing when it marketed the speaker with two transformers. I like to think I just took it forward another step by getting rid of the crossover entirely, which results in much higher impedance, which is very favorable to my OTL tube amplifiers. (Impedance averages about 20 ohms from 100Hz to 5kHz. Goes up at the low end and down at the high end.) But also, the passive crossover used an RC network as a high pass filter; the R sucks up amplifier power in a big way, because it is in parallel with the amplifier output. So a side benefit of getting rid of the R is to make the speaker much more efficient for my particular amplifiers. I am sure it could be driven handily by a 50W OTL.
Thanx Neil, but we are not done yet. The only thing we know for sure is that vinyl is at the bottom of the triboelectric series and loves to attract electrons. We can intentionally charge the vinyl by rubbing it with paper. The question is how does vinyl collect electrons under normal use. The answer to this question will tell us how to stop it. All I have shown is that at a humidity of 55% I can not charge the record under normal circumstances, on my turntable by either spinning it or by playing it. Obviously we are missing something here. I think we need to approach this from a different angle. We need to ask people with an obvious static problem a set of questions to see if we can find a common denominator. I think this calls for a new thread. Please encourage everyone to participate! The power is in numbers. I will work on a set of questions and start the thread when they are ready. I will publish them right here for comments and modification before I do.
Know for sure I am not laughing. But, I have a lot of respect for you! It takes a rationale and courageous person to face their own preconceived notions unbiased - its also show discipline, My compliments!
Lewm, you certainly would not run subwoofers up to 300 hz. I do not know about your transformers but my Sowter is down 3 dB at 40 Hz and flat up to 20 kHz. I cross over at 125 hz. I cross that high for several reasons. First is any good Subwoofer driver can easily run that high. Breakup usually does not occur until well over 500 Hz. Next is removing as much of the bass load as possible from the stats. Low bass requires long excursions even for large panels. Those long excursions doppler distort all the higher frequencies. Removing those excursions cleans up the pannels in a noticable way. The Higher cross over makes it easier to integrate the subwoofers. This is just my experience. Subwoofers go down lower effectively. You only have to listen to my system for a minute to get the idea. But again there are consideration that require capabilty beyond what most systems offer such as digital bass management and Room control. Many audiophiles are digital phobes and trying to explain this to them is like running into a brick wall. It is not my problem. But you as a fellow ESL user, who understands these speakers and what they can do really should experience this. If I could blind fold you you would never guess there were subs in the room until a really low not can along. You would know right away that you werer listening to tall ESLs. Nothing else sounds like that. Now back to static and some interesting results. dcarwin above has it right, conductive brushes attached to ground. As you recal just spinning a record for hours with the dust cover up does not create a static charge at 54% relative humidity. Neither does playing the record at 55% relative humidity! So under what conditions does a record develop a static charge and what is the immediate cause? It appears I do not have a static problem because under the conditions I play records static charges are not formed. What are those conditions? We would need everyone who has a static problem to tell use the spec of their record playing set up and the conditions under which it is used, relative humidity etc. Maybe we can find a common denominator. If humidity is the main problem I will not be able to test for that until well into the winter when I can drop the humidity to 20%. I took a record and slipped it out and into it's paper inner sleeve 10 times over two hours and it did not develop a static charge. But, if I rub the record aggressively with paper I can generate sparks. I'm sure Antinn is laughing.
lewm: The solution I describe and link to is passive, in that it works while you play the record, and one does not brush the surface of the record manually. I hope that's clear, in that your response infers I was re-posting some info about handheld conductive brushes.
If one wet-cleans the record, then this solution works to prevent any buildup of new static. For new (unwashed) static-y records, the solution dissipates the pre-existing static after a couple plays.
dcarwin, As mentioned somewhere up the thread, Audioquest now make their well known carbon fiber record brush with a metal handle that is electrically continuous with the brush fibers. (Earlier versions did not establish contact between fibers and handle.) When you hold it whilst brushing the LP, your body provides the electrical pathway to ground via your feet or you can just touch your metal equipment stand, in case your feet are insulated from ground by rubber shoes or nonconductive carpet. I also own, but have never used, a Mapleshade brush that has a ground wire with a clip at the end, also to fasten to a grounded object. Problem is its fibers are of natural origin and they both encourage static charge and also lose bristles which can foul up a stylus. This latter is why I don't use it.
I was inspired by this posting I read here about a DIY anti-static solution. I’ve been running my version for just over a month now. I can confirm that LPs are lifting off the platter without static crackles now, and that they are sliding back into their sleeves much easier than they come out. I am not going so far as to say that every single trace of static is completely gone after a single play, but I will say that after playing each side of an LP there is less static in the disc than before playing it. We’ve got two turntables running in the house, and the static solution is only set up on one of them. Static builds on the turntable with out the solution, and dissipates on the one where I have the brush running. It is a very nice feeling to lift a disc off the platter and have it feel like inert plastic versus some kind of active static monster.
The solution isn’t novel or particularly innovative, it’s a DIY scaled down version of solutions that are working daily in factories everywhere. You need a conductive carbon brush with an anchor point for a grounding wire, and you need to make sure that grounding wire makes it to an earth point. I’m using the panel screw on the wall plate (after I verified that the screw was indeed grounded using a multi-meter).
The toughest part for me was sourcing a good quality conductive carbon fiber brush at a reasonable price. If you are blessed to have old computer printers laying about you might be able to disassemble one and cannibalize the brush that most printers have built in. I ended up ordering my brush from Amstat Industries. Four inches was the smallest size I could order and cost was twenty four dollars for the brush and twelve for shipping for a total of thirty-six dollars for the brush to my door. I know that in the UK there are similar manufacturers of anti-static brushes one could source.
This DIY version has a good number of conductive carbon bristles in play across a large surface area, and I can have it making direct contact with both sides of the LP at the edge - or I can back it off to keep it silent at a 1-2 mm gap distance.
Mijo, You wrote, "With subwoofers you won't need the bass transformer." Since you did not hear my speakers without the bass transformer, how can you possibly know that? First of all, with the single full range transformer, the deficiency was at frequencies well above those of a subwoofer supplement. More like in the 50 to 300Hz range and very noticeable. I am not going to mate an ESL with a dynamic woofer (not subwoofer) that has to do significant work up to ~300Hz. With the added bass transformer in parallel, now I get full range ESL bass that goes down to about 30Hz and gradually tails off below that, due to the huge physical size of an 845PX panel. I'd rather have very low distortion ESL bass than bass that needs augmentation with a dynamic woofer (not a subwoofer when used above 80Hz or so, IMO), but that's me.
Antinn, I also have absolutely no static issues But I am going to have to stop telling people that the stylus rubbing the groove is the cause of statuc build up if it is not true. Something is causing static build up and there does not seem to any unity as to the cause but there certainly is one. We are certainly in agreement as to rice paper sleeves and filters. Both my air handlers have high efficiency filters and it helps. I have to wipe off my dust cover once every other month instead of every other week or so. It would be really nice to put your turntable in a clean room. You could make one in your house. God knows what it would cost. Almost all of my records are in rice paper sleeves now. Paper sleeve are certainly the worst. But I do not think they cause static in normal use. Records can hold on to a static charge indefinitely and paper sleeves will stick to a charged record making the problem rather obvious. Rice paper sleeves will not. Anyway, I know what I do works and is very efficient. We shall see if I can define the problem better.
With subwoofers you won't need the bass transformer. I plan on bypassing those controls also. I use full range digital "room control" which is really speaker control. I can make the speakers do whatever I want in the digital domain where there is much less distortion. Use subs and you will increase your headroom by 10dB and noticably lower distortion in your 845's. This is not very scientific but hey neither was the Kite. I can only tell if there is a charge there or not. I can't measure it. It is a qualitative test and the most sencitive I have available to me. Everybody is going to laugh at me now. When charging the record to see if I could measure anything with my meter I noticed that the charged record had a strong attraction to the hair on the back of my fingers so strong that I could feel it. Testing with multiple levels of charge it became obvious that the attraction to my hair was more sencitive than the attraction to the paper sleeve. All I have to do is move the back of my hand close to the record and I can see the hair flexing towards the record. With no charge the hair does not move at all. With a highly charged record the hairs stand at full attention. Anybody with hair fingers can try it at home. You could also borrow a gorilla from the zoo. The baseline was set by running the grounded brush over both sides of the record shorting it out. Hair does not move. At the end I held a finger over the record, no attraction at all. I took the record off the turntable and checked it again. Still no attraction. I rubbed the record with the paper sleeve and hairs stood straight up. Tonight I will short out the record again, play a side without the brush and and see if the record developes any charge. By the way and interestingly, holding the record does not dissipate the charge. Pulling a record out of a paper sleeve does not create a measurable charge at 54% humidity. Rubbing the record firmly with the paper sleeve 10 times back and forth creates a sizable charge pulling the hair straight. I don't have an anti static brush to test but my guess is just holding it over the record will not work well. They should make these brushes with a connection to ground. Then they would work great.
This is way off topic for the OP, and for that I apologize. When I removed the passive crossover components from the 845s, I replaced the OEM treble transformer, because that unit could not have handled full range input, and replaced it with a massive full range EI type transformer, with a 1:90 step-up ratio. So now the bass transformers, which work up to about 2kHz before pooping out, are in parallel with that full range one. I experimented with using the full range tranny alone to drive the 845s, but it doesn't have the cojones. The bass tranny is needed for good LF response.
Here we go again. I have used distilled deionized water + triton X100 + isopropyl alcohol forever in my RCM. Although it does a good job, I was eventually motivated to try rinsing the LP surface after a good cleaning with the above mix, because there was word on this forum and others that especially triton X100 could leave a residue. (This is using a VPI HW17 RCM.) I found that a rinse with distilled water, using a clean wand on the HW17, made a noticeable improvement in my results. Ergo, this suggests there IS a residue left behind after evaporation or in this case vacuum suction. I would guess that passive evaporation would leave even more of a residue than suction. I was a laboratory chief at NIH or FDA in those days, and I had access to lab grade chemicals for making the solution. (Retired now, so no such luck, but I still have some high quality ingredients left.) What instrument did you use to measure electrostatic charge on your LP, before vs after the experiment with room air?
Lewm, they called it the Magnetic-Kinetic interface. The Medallion was the last version. Both transformers always drove all the panels. With the 2+2s they used one interface but with the 3+3s and 4+4s they used two. The 4+4's were about the same size as your 845s. The two transformer idea originated because it was imposible to get the entire frequency range out of one transformer without saturation. I intensonally had a large transformer built that sacrificed bass for high end because I have always used subwoofers. Boy did that work. Now depending on the length of the wall you have the 845s on, you will need multiple subs. A 16 foot wall requires 4 subs. If you do not like playing over 95 dB and do not care about the bottom octave 10" drivers will do. Otherwise you have to stick with 12" drivers. In sealed cabinets they are not that big and because they are right against the wall and in corners they sort of disappear. But there are other serious considerations when matching subs to ESLs we can talk about another time as we are hijacking this thread. Antinn, I really do not think they thought of it as an important issue compared with all the others. You are right there are a number of variables that can alter the results. I have some control of humidity as we use AC. It was 54% this morning. My records have no static at all to start. That part is easy. Spinning a record all night with the dust cover open resulted in no noticable static charge. So I think we can say that just spinning a record at 54% humidity will not cause static build up. My mat is not conductive. Tonight I am going to play a record without the sweep arm to see if a charge developes. If it does we can safely say that something about playing a record creates a static charge and since creating a charge requires "intimate contact" we can safely assume it is the stylus rubbing. If no charge developes it gets a bit more complicated. Most likely the stylus rubbing does not create a charge but there could be something about my turntable or environment that is keeping the charge from developing. I have been using a conductive sweep arm since the early 70's and have not had an static build up records. So, I have not thought much about it. The only records I have ever had to clean are the ones I had before sweep arm use. Again, I do not buy used records but they certainly should be cleaned before play. Triton X100 is a surfactant. Water all by itself is "anti-static" Triton X100, distilled water with a touch of alcohol make a woderful record cleaning solution. Out of the bath the records will be totally discharged and all the solution will evaporate. Any substance that stays on the record is bad news antistatic or not.
The original zerostat gun (red) by discwasher is an effective tool, as well as a leather mat. Also the audioquest carbon fiber brush with the brass colored metal in the handle (newest version) seems to be effective. Also the use of anti static record sleeves is a good start.
"I would like to get this settled once and for all" My only response is good luck. There are so many variables. The ambient humidity; the various ground potentials, the record material (which is a complete wildcard), the record mat, the record liner, you - what is your hydration level; just to name a few. If there was an answer, I would like to think the RCA engineers from years past would have figured it out - they spent quite a bit of effort developing anti-static records with carefully bended formulas. But, one always has to admire those that try. But, there appears to be a significant risk with just removing the record from the sleeve and lifting it from the platter mat. So, there 'could' be an accumulation effect from the end of play platter lift-off to sleeving; and this will be influenced by the ambient humidity and the hydration status of the human. Personally, I do not have any major static issues - but dust/lint that is only visible with black-light is often in the air. Use of room HEPA filter can help. Otherwise, all my records have been deep-wet cleaned and anit-static sleeves are used, and I have good luck with the
Kinetronics Anti-Static Microfiber Cloth, Tiger Cloth wetted with about one drop of atomized DI water (from a nasal spray device).
If you read the MSDS for Hepastat 256 - its an alkaline cleaner with non-ionic surfactant and cationic surfactant - the quat, and ethanol (alcohol) and other ingredients. Why add Triton X100 non-ionic detergent? Why add alcohol - what are they doing? Otherwise, the likely reason you are experiencing continued anti-static performance its because the quat - the cationic surfactant left a thin film These quats (
Quaternary ammonium cations) aside from killing viruses, have as a film absorb moisture from the air and form a thin water film on the record that changes the record to dissipative - ergo anti-static. They will wear away eventually. However, be careful, once you have cleaned with a cationic surfactant - if there is a film and you apply an anionic surfactant - any dish detergent - the anionic surfactant and the cationic surfactant are not soluble and a sticky paste can form. Being in the groove you are unlikely to see it - but you will see a buildup of gunk on the stylus. Personally, as I have written in the paper Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Record (you can download a free copy here -
https://thevinylpress.com/precision-aqueous-cleaning-of-vinyl-records/), I am not a fan of any cleaning process that leaves a residue. But, as my paper says - its A way, not THE way - just make an informed decision, and know and accept any associated risk.
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