Here is my list of questions which I will start a new thread with. Thoughts?
Please rate your static problem on a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being the worst.
Where do you live? Just the State or Province will do.
Do you know your average relative humidity?
How do you store your records? How many do you have?
Do you use anti static sleeves?
Make of turntable , Tonearm and Cartridge? Type of Cantilever? Type of platter?
Do you use a special Mat?
What do you use to discharge your records?
When is your static worse, when you pull the record out of the jacket or when you put it away? How do you tell?
How do you clean your records? Do you use any vinyl treatments such as Last or Groove Glide?
How often do you think of just sticking to digital:)
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Here you go Lewm
https://thelastfactory.com/last-record-preservative/how-do-i-get-rid-of-static-on-vinyl-records-i-e-static-cling/ and Antinin. Lewm you may be right about the probe. I have a very fast meter with a very high impedance. Tonight I will connect the negative lead to house ground and see if I can measure it. Lewm I have to say you have excellent taste in loudspeakers. Have you tried subwoofers yet? What are you using to drive them? The other theory as to how static forms on records is that the spinning record creates "friction" with air generating the charge. This is unlikely as the formation of a static electric charge requires "intimate" contact between two objects at opposite ends of the triboelectric series. Intimate contact such as the belt in a Van De Graaff generator or the stylus in the groove. You can not generate a static charge by waving your feet in the air but you can rubbing your feet on carpet with all your weight on them. Tonight I will put a neutral record on the turntable and let it spin while I check out the news and see if it develops a charge. In surfing the internet on this subject I have noted that there are a plethora of theories and opinions on the generation and management of static electricity on records. They can not all be right. Once you understand how the static electricity is formed all you need is logic to form a management plan. It is not rocket science and I am not a rocket scientist. Static is formed by the stylus rubbing the groove stealing the electrons from air. Here is a decent general article.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/static-science-how-well-do-different-materials-make-static-electricity/#:~:text=Static%20electricity%20can%20be%20created,to%20produce%20a%20static%20charge.Antinin, great article with some aspects I disagree with. He "oddly" dismisses the sorce of static as the rubbing stylus. As measured by who and under what circumstances.The Last Factory also disagrees with this analysis. There are a number of ways you can detect static. Take a neutral record and play it. You will notice a static charge develops. Something about playing a record developes static electricity. Are there circumstances that a charge won't develop? Perhaps high humidity, An arm or turntable grounded in a certain way, a conductive cartridge body that runs very close to the record. Obviously I do not know for sure. Tonight I am going to let a record just spin and see what happens. Put a neutral record in a paper sleeve and nothing will happen. But, if you put a charged record into a paper sleeve the paper will cling to the record and you will even get snapping and maybe even shocked as you pull it out. This is why people think that paper sleeves cause static under normal circumstances. If you take a paper sleeve and rub it briskly over the record you can develop a nice charge and ruin the record in the process. This is an experiment I have done. My records come off the turntable discharged and the ones still in paper sleeves never develop a static charge. He talks about dust and confirms most of what I have said. He "oddly" thinks you need a longer stylus shank to prevent clogging the stylus. Today we use very tiny short styli without any trouble what so ever. This improves tracking and frequency response by lowering the effective mass of the assembly. Lint (large fiber) is easy to remove from a record It is the smaller particles and pollution that are the real problem in terms of record wear. Most people deal with this with various record cleaning devises and methods. I deal with it my not letting my records get dirty in the first place. I never put anything on my records. All I do is the conductive sweep arm and a dust cover. |
Here we go again. Masi, static electricity is created by the stylus rubbing the groove of a material (PVC) that falls at the very bottom of the triboelectric series. Within 30 seconds of the stylus rubbing the groove thousands of volts of static electricity are created. Yes, the Zerostat will neutralize static but you would have to continually squirt the record while it was playing, a bit impractical. The problems with static electricity are that it can discharge into the cartridge causing snaps and pops while playing but worse it pulls dust and pollution deep into the groove where your stylus runs over it and with a total of about 20,000 PSI grinds the stuff right into the vinyl permanently. The absolute best way to deal with this problem is to use a conductive sweep arm that is connected to ground. This discharges the record during play so static does not build up and it clears any incidental dust away from the stylus. Along with the conductive sweep a dust cover that can be used during play is crucial. Most dust covers are unfortunately awful which is why they have such a bad rep. The dust cover can not be attached directly to any structure that the platter and tone arm are attached to. Examples of good dust covers are the SOTA suspended turntables, the Linn and the suspended Thorens tables. The dust covers are attached to the plinth. The platter and the tonearm are mounted on a suspended sub chassis inside. In this case the dust cover makes a sonic improvement as it attenuates the volume of sound getting to the record and tonearm and any resonance from the dust cover can not be passed through to the platter and tonearm. With odd shaped turntables and turntables that are not suspended the best way to create a dust cover is to make a platform of glass or plexi just larger than the turntable and hinge a dust cover to it then just place the turntable inside. This assumes that the turntable has decent feet. There are several companies that will do this for you.
How does this work? I never have to clean a record I bought new and I do not buy used records. The only record cleaning device I have is a spin clean. I use it on records people bring to listen on my system.
I also use anti static inner sleeves on all my records. I never leave records out. There is no smoking anything inside my house. |
Daveyf, many preferences are a result of mythology which is admittedly hard to combat. If you don't mind dust on your records, don't use a dust cover. I got rid of all my Linns a long time ago because they are irreparably defective.
Lewm, in order to transfer electrons from your hand to the record there has to be intimate contact. You have to rub your hand firmly back and forth across the record, a maneuver I can see you doing on a regular basis. Remember rubbing your feet on the carpet so you could shock your brother? Don't use the sweep arm. Destroy your records. Why should I care.
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Antinn, I also have absolutely no static issues But I am going to have to stop telling people that the stylus rubbing the groove is the cause of statuc build up if it is not true. Something is causing static build up and there does not seem to any unity as to the cause but there certainly is one. We are certainly in agreement as to rice paper sleeves and filters. Both my air handlers have high efficiency filters and it helps. I have to wipe off my dust cover once every other month instead of every other week or so. It would be really nice to put your turntable in a clean room.
You could make one in your house. God knows what it would cost.
Almost all of my records are in rice paper sleeves now. Paper sleeve are certainly the worst. But I do not think they cause static in normal use.
Records can hold on to a static charge indefinitely and paper sleeves will stick to a charged record making the problem rather obvious. Rice paper sleeves will not.
Anyway, I know what I do works and is very efficient. We shall see if I can define the problem better. |
Antinn, I prefer 100% IPA for cleaning records. That way the job never gets done.
The elusive disc arm is nicely made but has one fault and that is the brush is camel hair and not near as conductive as carbon bristles. I bought one and checked it with a meter. Carbon registers continuity camel hair does not. I sent it back.
Yes, you will short out one side of the record on a grounded bare metal platter but it does nothing for the side generating the charge and sucking in the dust. I also personally prefer a mat of the proper durometer. It does sound better to me as does either vacuum hold down or a reflex clamping system.
Give the darn $20.00 arm a spin. I'll buy it off ya if you don't like it:) |
A mat will do absolutely nothing to contain static. Lewm you answered your own question. The electrons are coming from the air. The stylus rubbing the groove enhances the transfer of electrons. Because diamond is not conductive there is no path to ground.
I have owned two Linns in the past. All you have to do is put felt pads at the front corners where the cover contacts the base. The cover should not contact the base anywhere except at the hinges and the felt pads. (you can get them at Home Depot.) I suspect the reason why people think things sound better with the dust cover off is because the echo they get adds a tube like distortion and a false sense of space. If you use the dust cover and pay attention to image specificity you will notice that the individual instruments are better defined. Just play a good recording of a string quartet. I use ESLs and subwoofers. The system is very sensitive to just about anything. Now even if you think there is a slight degradation in sound quality, record preservation is more important. When you play a record without a dust cover and no path to ground dust is pulled into the record rapidly where it is ground into the vinyl. This is a great process for the record cleaning industry. A conductive sweep arm costs 20 bucks. If you have trouble setting it up message me. Play some new records with the dust cover on and a sweep arm. Watch what happens. No static build up, no dust, records stay perfectly clean, no build up on stylus. You might have to clean all your old records once to see the same effect on them but you will and you will never look back.
The problem comes with turntables that are not suspended and vibration of the dust cover is passed directly to the structure that has the platter and tonearm attached. Making a usable dust cover for these tables is a bit more complicated and expensive but it can be done as I talk about above. If I ever manage to get a Dohmann Helix I will have to go through that maneuver as the whole darn turntable is suspended.
Another advantage of using a dust cover all the time is limiting exposure of the tonearm to dust. Dust is the enemy of delicate bearings that are not sealed. Interestingly this is the one area where uni pivot arms have a distinct advantage not that I would ever buy another one. |
Woops, I forgot to mention. Putting ANYTHING on your records is plain silly. You will just grind dust into the stuff and make mud. Just watch what happens to your stylus. It will gum up faster than ever unless it is the same hoax perpetrated by Last which is just a type of Freon that evaporates entirely. Great racket. Turns all your money into vapor. |
Thanx Antin, very helpful. I would just like to make several comments in addition. The charge is developed during play. Devices that neutralize the static before play are not useful. The charge develops rapidly and spreads over the surface of the record. The record collects dust during play especially if you are not using a dust cover. You can charge the record by rubbing your hand back and forth across the record, a behavior most of us would cringe to think about. Grounding the platter does not work. Even if you discharged the bottom of the record you are not discharging the top of the record. Static does not make a U turn around a sharp edge. Also very few mats are conductive. Many platters now are not conductive You mention conductive brushes and why handheld brushes do not work. Good conductive sweep arms use the same bristles used in the hand held brushes just a bit longer. The arm I currently use, this one
https://www.sleevecityusa.com/Antistatic-Record-Cleaning-Arm-p/tac-01.htm is quite durable. Mine must be 6 years old at least and shows no sign of giving up. It is admittedly a little flimsy is some ways but with slight modification it stays permanently in adjustment and is a breeze to use. The arm is set up so that the bristles just barely touch the record. This gives the best tracking and clears any incidental dust away from the stylus. I have a felt pad stuck to the left front corner of the turntable which I wipe the brush on before play. I clean the pad every so often with alcohol. I clean the arm maybe twice yearly with alcohol. The arm works perfectly. You can not hear it tracking the record. You can not hear it through the system even if you drop it on the record during a silent groove. If you use the right sleeves the records never hold any static charge, not even a whisper and the records remain perfectly clean. If you do not use a dust cover during play the records won't remain quite as clean but the sweep arm will clear any incidental dust away from the stylus. You will however contaminate the record sleeves with the small amount of dust that falls on the record during play which is way less than what you would have with a charged record which pulls dust in like a magnet. Take an old record and rub it with your hands to create a good charge. Now hold the record up to the light in such a way that you can see dust. Dust from over a foot away will swing toward the record and fly right into it. Now think about 10,000 PSI running over it (20,000 total, 10,000 per contact patch) It is no wonder records get noisy, scratchy and dirty with recurrent play. My oldest records, the ones I had when I was 6 years old are painful to listen to even after cleaning and with a modern stylus. My father's records are not much better. He used an old ESL tonearm with an Empire Cartridge and no anti skate. Who knew? Anyway, with a large collection none of us play the same record over and over so our records can last forever if taken care of. The conductive sweep arm mentioned above is a whopping 20 bucks. If you get one and want to know a few tricks in set up just message me. |
Lewm, just touching a neutral record will not transfer electrons without rubbing. If the record is already charged then sure. You can even see the sparks jump with the lights out.Just picking up a neutral record will in no way, shape or form put a charge on the record so if you want a charge you are going to have to put some elbow grease into it. Take an old record and give it a try. It will help if the air is dry. I'm sure you have record cleaning stuff to touch it up afterwards.
Now a record press closes with about 150 tons of pressure. The surface area of a record is Pi R squared = 36 X 3.14= 113 square inches. This would come out to 2665 PSI. The contact area of a fine line stylus is about 47 um squared. Lets use 2 grams VTF. 2 gm = 0.00440925 lb.
47 um squared = 0.000000071285 square inches. Divide pounds by square inches and you get 60,525.0515 psi or over 30,000 psi per contact patch. So I was a tiny bit off. Sorry about that folks. |
Well he was certainly right about the Linn sounding better than the direct drive. Daveyf, I did not say that the Linn could not sound good, it can. I said that it is irreparably defective which it is. The plinth is poorly constructed, you can twist it in your hands. The suspension is poorly damped and unstable because of it's geometry. The sub chassis sits on its springs like an old AR instead of being hung from them like an SME or SOTA. The ONLY advantage it had (over the AR) was at least you could mount the tonearm of your choice. Now they are trying to take that away as well.
The Linn has long outlived it's usefulness there are too many well designed tables for the money. Plus you said it sounds bad with it's dust cover down. That is certainly a problem I could not live with.
And Daveyf, you'll have to trust me on this one. I can set up a turntable way better than your dealer can. I have much better tools. |
Daveyf, if you think the guy at any Hi Fi store is an expert at setting up a turntable you are more gullible than I thought. I have NEVER seen a turntable come from a store set up perfectly. I was not kidding you when I said I have much better tools. Message me and I will happily send you some pictures. |
ebm, the Furutech Destat is just as worthless as the Zerostat. You would have to hold the thing over the record while it was playing and that will certainly interfere with your enjoyment of the music. Conductive sweep arm 20 bucks, Furutech Destat 325 bucks. What a racket. |
ebm not at all. The Desat 2 and Zerostat do not solve the problem they just delude you into thinking they do. The static is generated by the stylus rubbing the groove. It is regenerated after only a minute of play time. The static attracts dust and pollution and pulls it deep into the groove where you stylus runs over it at 30,000 PSI per contact patch (we just did the math above) grinding it into the vinyl. All this is worsened by not using a dust cover during play. Unless you want to stand over the record and use these devices during play they are worthless. I'm sorry you guys wasted your money on them. I can't do anything about that. But I can keep others from making the same mistake. Don't feel bad. I bought a Zerostat when they first came out. I stopped using it after a week. Live and learn.
You have to discharge the record during play and the only way I know to do that is with a conductive sweep arm providing a path to ground.
Lewm you are right but it has to be done in a nitrogen or argon atmosphere. X ray irradiation will work in air I believe. I'm pretty sure the conductive sweep arm would be more cost effective and less carcinogenic. |
Lewm, it is very easy to measure with a high voltage probe. Building ESLs I just happen to have one. You are not arguing with me Lewm you are arguing with scientific facts of life. All you have to do is get up off your back side and do a little research instead of trying to convince me I am wrong.
The bristles on your brush are conductive and they will lead static away from the record if there is a path to ground. Even if you were holding your house's ground cable in your left had it will not work well because the electrical resistance of you is very high. With me from one index finger to the other is 23.765 mega ohms. (I just measured it) You would have to hold the brush on the record for an hour. Besides, as soon as you put that stylus down the charge is back and the dust is flying into your grooves. If you want to shock someone just rub your feet on a carpet for just 5 seconds. As you go to touch your unsuspecting target you can actually see the spark jump. Just 5 seconds.
Do post that video. I just read that it required a special atmosphere, UV that is. X rays do not require anything. (except everybody hiding.) |
Antinn, another great old article. I can only calculate the PSI the vinyl is subjected to under static conditions which I probably should have mentioned. Playing a record is not a static process (no pun intended) it is a dynamic one with the stylus wiggling all over the place subjecting the vinyl to variations in pressure I certainly have no way of determining. I was Just trying to give everyone the basic picture that the pressure is considerable, in the order of tens of thousands of pounds per square inch. The article mention 10 X 10 to the forth power. That would be 100,000 PSI. But their contact patches were much smaller.
This article was written when we were still using only spherical styli. He mentions 10 gram VTF! Obviously we have advanced consideraby since then. Our styli are tiny in comparison and undoubtedly have a much higher polish. The contact patch with our special shapes is much higher lowering the PSI the vinyl is subjected to and increasing the frequency response to as high as 100 kHz. 30,000 PSI is certainly in the ballpark.
Anyway, thanx for pulling up these articles. They are fun to read given their age and most of these concepts remain true to this day. |
No Lewm, I was talking about measuring the record. I built my own adjustible bias supplies. I maintain a pretty dry environment and can push the panels a bit harder than the stock bias supplies. The only parts I kept are the two power transformers. I have the probe to make sure the bias supplies are putting out exactly the same voltage. I measure between power supply ground and the bias supply output with the panels connected. They are old Acoustat 2+2s which I have had from new. They spend a few years in another friends system while I played around with Apogee Divas. I got them back after I sold the Divas. I also removed the stock interface and replaced it with a 100 to 1 Sowter Transformer. They are driven with JC 1's. I cross to 4 subwoofers which I built at 125 Hz.
I have a better subwoofer design in my head which I will probably make next Winter. They will use a total of 8 Morel 12" drivers in a balanced force configuration. I also plan on getting a pair of 845's in the hopefully not too distant future. The 2+2s are wonderful but selfish. The treble rolls off quickly off axis.
An old trash record is on the turntable spinning now with the dust cover up. We shall see if it developes a charge. Afterwards I am going to play the record without the sweep arm to see what happens. As you probably have noticed there are opinions all over the place as to what does and doen't create static on records. I have read that Shure paper many times. Overall I prefer Antin's article. I would like to get this settled once and for all:) |
Lewm, they called it the Magnetic-Kinetic interface. The Medallion was the last version. Both transformers always drove all the panels. With the 2+2s they used one interface but with the 3+3s and 4+4s they used two.
The 4+4's were about the same size as your 845s.
The two transformer idea originated because it was imposible to get the entire frequency range out of one transformer without saturation. I intensonally had a large transformer built that sacrificed bass for high end because I have always used subwoofers. Boy did that work. Now depending on the length of the wall you have the 845s on, you will need multiple subs. A 16 foot wall requires 4 subs. If you do not like playing over 95 dB and do not care about the bottom octave 10" drivers will do. Otherwise you have to stick with 12" drivers. In sealed cabinets they are not that big and because they are right against the wall and in corners they sort of disappear. But there are other serious considerations when matching subs to ESLs we can talk about another time as we are hijacking this thread.
Antinn, I really do not think they thought of it as an important issue compared with all the others. You are right there are a number of variables that can alter the results. I have some control of humidity as we use AC. It was 54% this morning. My records have no static at all to start. That part is easy. Spinning a record all night with the dust cover open resulted in no noticable static charge. So I think we can say that just spinning a record at 54% humidity will not cause static build up. My mat is not conductive. Tonight I am going to play a record without the sweep arm to see if a charge developes. If it does we can safely say that something about playing a record creates a static charge and since creating a charge requires "intimate contact" we can safely assume it is the stylus rubbing. If no charge developes it gets a bit more complicated. Most likely the stylus rubbing does not create a charge but there could be something about my turntable or environment that is keeping the charge from developing. I have been using a conductive sweep arm since the early 70's and have not had an static build up records. So, I have not thought much about it. The only records I have ever had to clean are the ones I had before sweep arm use. Again, I do not buy used records but they certainly should be cleaned before play.
Triton X100 is a surfactant. Water all by itself is "anti-static" Triton X100, distilled water with a touch of alcohol make a woderful record cleaning solution. Out of the bath the records will be totally discharged and all the solution will evaporate. Any substance that stays on the record is bad news antistatic or not. |
With subwoofers you won't need the bass transformer. I plan on bypassing those controls also. I use full range digital "room control" which is really speaker control. I can make the speakers do whatever I want in the digital domain where there is much less distortion. Use subs and you will increase your headroom by 10dB and noticably lower distortion in your 845's.
This is not very scientific but hey neither was the Kite. I can only tell if there is a charge there or not. I can't measure it. It is a qualitative test and the most sencitive I have available to me. Everybody is going to laugh at me now. When charging the record to see if I could measure anything with my meter I noticed that the charged record had a strong attraction to the hair on the back of my fingers so strong that I could feel it. Testing with multiple levels of charge it became obvious that the attraction to my hair was more sencitive than the attraction to the paper sleeve. All I have to do is move the back of my hand close to the record and I can see the hair flexing towards the record. With no charge the hair does not move at all. With a highly charged record the hairs stand at full attention.
Anybody with hair fingers can try it at home. You could also borrow a gorilla from the zoo.
The baseline was set by running the grounded brush over both sides of the record shorting it out. Hair does not move. At the end I held a finger over the record, no attraction at all. I took the record off the turntable and checked it again. Still no attraction. I rubbed the record with the paper sleeve and hairs stood straight up. Tonight I will short out the record again, play a side without the brush and and see if the record developes any charge. By the way and interestingly, holding the record does not dissipate the charge. Pulling a record out of a paper sleeve does not create a measurable charge at 54% humidity. Rubbing the record firmly with the paper sleeve 10 times back and forth creates a sizable charge pulling the hair straight. I don't have an anti static brush to test but my guess is just holding it over the record will not work well. They should make these brushes with a connection to ground. Then they would work great. |
Lewm, you certainly would not run subwoofers up to 300 hz. I do not know about your transformers but my Sowter is down 3 dB at 40 Hz and flat up to 20 kHz. I cross over at 125 hz. I cross that high for several reasons. First is any good Subwoofer driver can easily run that high. Breakup usually does not occur until well over 500 Hz. Next is removing as much of the bass load as possible from the stats. Low bass requires long excursions even for large panels. Those long excursions doppler distort all the higher frequencies. Removing those excursions cleans up the pannels in a noticable way. The Higher cross over makes it easier to integrate the subwoofers. This is just my experience. Subwoofers go down lower effectively. You only have to listen to my system for a minute to get the idea. But again there are consideration that require capabilty beyond what most systems offer such as digital bass management and Room control. Many audiophiles are digital phobes and trying to explain this to them is like running into a brick wall. It is not my problem. But you as a fellow ESL user, who understands these speakers and what they can do really should experience this. If I could blind fold you you would never guess there were subs in the room until a really low not can along.
You would know right away that you werer listening to tall ESLs. Nothing else sounds like that.
Now back to static and some interesting results. dcarwin above has it right, conductive brushes attached to ground.
As you recal just spinning a record for hours with the dust cover up does not create a static charge at 54% relative humidity. Neither does playing the record at 55% relative humidity! So under what conditions does a record develop a static charge and what is the immediate cause? It appears I do not have a static problem because under the conditions I play records static charges are not formed. What are those conditions?
We would need everyone who has a static problem to tell use the spec of their record playing set up and the conditions under which it is used, relative humidity etc. Maybe we can find a common denominator. If humidity is the main problem I will not be able to test for that until well into the winter when I can drop the humidity to 20%. I took a record and slipped it out and into it's paper inner sleeve 10 times over two hours and it did not develop a static charge. But, if I rub the record aggressively with paper I can generate sparks. I'm sure Antinn is laughing. |
Thanx Neil, but we are not done yet. The only thing we know for sure is that vinyl is at the bottom of the triboelectric series and loves to attract electrons. We can intentionally charge the vinyl by rubbing it with paper. The question is how does vinyl collect electrons under normal use. The answer to this question will tell us how to stop it. All I have shown is that at a humidity of 55% I can not charge the record under normal circumstances, on my turntable by either spinning it or by playing it. Obviously we are missing something here. I think we need to approach this from a different angle. We need to ask people with an obvious static problem a set of questions to see if we can find a common denominator. I think this calls for a new thread. Please encourage everyone to participate! The power is in numbers. I will work on a set of questions and start the thread when they are ready. I will publish them right here for comments and modification before I do. |
Exactly. It seem that some people have more trouble than others and we may be able to pick up on certain factors that are more important.
It is funny, in analysing the situation I looked up the conductivity of boron. It is not. I was thinking that a conductive cantilever like aluminum might actually lead electrons down to the record. But the opposite is also true
Once the charge gets high enough on the record it will start discharging to whatever is closest and conductive. Lewm for certain knows this. When us ESL guys get the bias voltage too high you hear snapping as the diaphragms arc to the grids. Fortunately this does not hurt modern ESLs at all.
The baseline condition is the hardest variable to account for because in the absence of a path to ground static charges can last indefinitely. Indeed it is possible for the effect to be additive until it becomes obvious.
I think the vinyl is not as important a factor. The anti static vinyls of the 60's were essentially marketing. My dad's old Rec O Kut/ESL/Empire table created static like crazy and it did it to all the records. He had a large classical collection full of London's, RCA's and Columbia's. The treatment back then was to wipe the record with a damp cloth. They had "anti Static" felt cloths impregnated with something which felt like an oil but they were messy and got contaminated fast. Once you washed the any anti static effect they had was lost. That was about it for record cleaning back then. All records are at least 98% vinyl and I really do not think there is much difference between them as far as static is concerned. Also, people do not only play one type of vinyl so I think any effect would average out.
so, I think we can boil it down to Location (weather),seasonality, The severity of the problem, Turntable, cartridge and arm, type of mat, Anti static methods used, How do you store your records. How would you rate your static problem.
This is just to give us an idea where to look. Further work will have to be down to nail the causes down.
Like you I think humidity is going to be a big determinant and I do plan on rerunning my experiment next winter. But humidity is not the only factor it is just a coenzyme if you will. The electrons are coming from somewhere along one of maybe multiple paths.
Why solve the problem? Static electricity is great for business. Record don't get dirty because people throw them in the dirt. |
jro1903, yes the Zerostat works but the trick is eliminating static formation
period. Any time your record develops a static charge it is drawing in dust and pollution like a magnet.
Interesting orthomed. Isolating the record from the platter stopped the static formation. Can you fine out what the platter is made of? Both cartridges use a non conductive boron cantilever. I do not think the Achromat is discharging the record. I think it is isolating it from the platter. If the material the platter is made from is high in the triboelectric series that would explain your problem.
Most of my records are in rice paper sleeves but I still find an occasional one in paper. Last night I pulled out Dylan's Nashville Skyline. I have not played it for several years. Sure enough it had a pretty decent charge on it. All my records are discharged during play. They always go back in the sleeve in neutral condition but this one developed a charge over two years just sitting in my collection!! My records are stored in a special compartmentalized record cabinet. They are packed in so there is always some compression but not so tight that they are hard to remove. This Keeps the records flat. I know that putting a record into a sleeve then pulling it out at a humidity of 54% does not create a measurable static charge. This would leave me to believe that under pressure for a prolonged period of time paper will transfer electrons to PVC without rubbing.
The conclusion is there are multiple ways records collect static leading to multiple solutions. The first is put all your records in anti static sleeves. Sleeves that will not transfer electrons to vinyl. I just ordered another 50 from Sleeve City to get the stragglers. |
Lewm, sorry I missed your last post. 1:250 is a huge transformer. The 1:100 Sowter transformer is very large and is +- 3 dB 50 Hz to 18 kHz.
I cross over to subs at 125 Hz which is quite high. 500 Hz is well into the midrange. 256 Hz is about middle C.
I have not had the chance to open up a Sound Labs interface yet. Can you just wire around the controls to eliminate them from the circuit without modifying the cross over network? I do not like pots in speakers signal path. Bi amping the transformers is an interesting approach. If I do Sound Labs I will try to wire past the controls and use one big amp like an Atma- Sphere MA 2. I will be able to correct any response aberrations with room control.
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Sure blueranger but what values do you want to maintain? Humans are uncomfortable below 40% and above 80%. |
Interesting, I have a UV light at the office. I'll check it out.
That patent was issued in 1974 during the decline of RCA. I do not know if they sold compound to other companies. Methylammonium Methosulfate was added as an anti static agent. Fabric Softener!
I can not find any reference of it being added to PVC for records today but compounds are usually guarded secrets.
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Uberwaltz, curiosity has no end. I have proved myself wrong on several occasions. |
Orthomead and Uberwaltz, it may be the way the record is stored. The record may be coming out of it's sleeve already charged. Check your records before play. Just wave the back of your hand slowly across the record. If there is static there you will feel and see your hairs stand up. This is actually a very sensitive way of detecting static in a qualitative sense. Note what kind of sleeve the record came out of. I suspect that electrons will transfer from paper to vinyl under pressure without rubbing. Uberwaltz, where do you live? Very Dry?
Yes, orthomead. Ground your bearing. Graphite is conductive so that should do it.
Antinn, I do not think modern vinyl has any anti static additives. Not entirely sure of this.
The best way to discharge the record is with a conductive brush wired to ground. I use a sweep arm. You could take a conductive hand held brush. drill and tap the handle and wire it to ground. Holding it will not work well even if you are holding a ground wire in the other hand. The resistance from one hand to the other is 23 megaohms! You can have the brush wired to ground and keep it right next to the turntable ready to use. Keep a felt pad adhered to a flat surface nearby to wipe the brush on. The sweep arm does this during play and sweeps any dust away from the path of the stylis. Set up correctly it will track right along with the tonearm. |
I pulled out a bunch of older records I have not played in a while and checked the ones in paper sleeves for static. None of them were charged. The one that was was an outlier for some unknown reason.
So, transfer of electrons from paper to PVC by pressure only does not appear to happen.
Antinn, the grounded sweep are is still a very valuable device. It sweeps any incidental dust away from the stylus and discharge any static the record has collected for whatever reason. I have not had either a static or cleanliness problem in the 40 years I have been using one. It would have to be grounded anyway. If it were not just brushing the record might create static. I'll be taking my black light home for the weekend:) |
@lewm , I looked into static electricity meters. The ones used in industry are very expensive and hard to justify. Charge levels that are not painfully obvious are of little consequence. I have found subjective findings good enough for our purposes.
I am fortunate to have a wonderful static generating machine, the vacuum clamping mechanism of my turntable. On removing untreated records from the platter you can see the sparks jump if the lights are down as well as hear them. The grounded sweep arm will discharge to upper surface but not the lower one. This led me to develop a record cleaning solution that prevents the formation of static. It works a treat as the British would say, but it is only appropriate for use with vacuum cleaning machines. Air drying will leave too much residue on the record and you will see it collect on the stylus. Vacuum drying leaves so little the stylus remains clean. I also think the records are quieter after treatment. Once I get my act together I'll make before and after files for comparison.
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