What types of music do you favor Farersre? Cables? Speakers? Placement? Amp(s)? Concert level listening or easy listening? Reviewer...ooops, forget that one, they are like A-- holes, everybody has one ! |
So the 'best' does not exist? I have a challenge for you then.
I can easily point out an area where preamp performances differ- and where listening preferences will favor the preamp that measures better: the ability to drive interconnect cables.
I think it is fairly well agreed that interconnect cables affect the sound. But what if you could create a way to eliminate the interaction that the cable has in the system in such a way that the cable would perform even better (this also means that you could use a cheaper cable, BTW)? Now add the ability to drive long distances, such that you can place the front end of the system where you want it, and yet place your monoblocks as close to your speakers so as to keep the speaker cable length down, and you get the idea.
The system for doing all that was created nearly 60 years ago. It was introduced to high end audio about 1989. Most high end preamp manufacturers have not grasped what it is about, and so there is a lot of variance in this area. This is the ability to drive low impedance balanced lines.
Since the high end has had such a problem understanding what the benefits of balanced lines are, the result has been a fair amount of mediocrity, price no object.
So- in the face of that, is the 'best' something that does not exist (and thus denying the meaning of the word)? Or is it simply the case that not everyone has heard everything, and that combined with so much mediocrity has caused none to stand out?? |
06-28-07: Atmasphere
So the 'best' does not exist? Well I think 'the best' does exist in many different forms. What is 'the best' to one may not be 'the best' to another. So I would say there is no 'absolute best', that is one that everyone WILL agree on, but there are many preamps out there that some will SAY is the best. Synergy, room interactions, and musical preferences probably have a lot to do with the reason why there is no one absolute best. Same way with most things in life, different tastes in people, cars, vacation spots, or even ice cream flavors. There is no absolute best on any of these items, why should preamps be any different? John |
So- if there is no 'best', doesn't it seem that there are a lot of manufacturers *saying* they have the best? I agree they can't all be right :)
Seems to me also that this got covered in another thread.
But still I find myself wondering- if someone in fact had a genuine breakthrough in preamp technology, something that was so much better that it would be obvious to anyone in 5 seconds of listening, what would that look like? Would that be the best then? or is it still subject to the 'versions of vanilla' phenom?
This would appear to allow someone in my position to make all sorts of claims about gear that could not be quantified- or denied. And a manufacturer like say, Sony, for example, could make the identical claims on a preamp that is no-where near the same capability.
So I guess what I am saying is there is no integrity in throwing up one's collective hands and saying there is no 'best'. I think to handle the situation with integrity one would have to admit that there is the *possibility* that this or that preamp is the best, whereas in the same breath there will be other preamps that *cannot possibly* be best.
Would that be a more accurate statement? |
06-28-07: Atmasphere
So- if there is no 'best', doesn't it seem that there are a lot of manufacturers *saying* they have the best? I agree they can't all be right :) Seems to be an awful lot of pizza manufacturers saying 'You've tried all the rest, now try the best', no? They can't all be right can they? Anyone can make a claim, as no one owns the copyright to the word 'Best', AFAIK. So go ahead and make the claim Ralph, maybe it'll even boost sales. ;^) As for your last statement, I don't know. I'm sure somewhere there is a Sony preamp owner that feels his preamp is the best. I don't think it's safe to assume that you can find anything in audio that someone, somewhere won't claim is the 'best'. I think the word 'best' is really overused and meaningless at this point. Just like there is no one 'Best' man, only many different folks opinions of who the 'Best' man really is. 8-) Cheers, John Cheers, John |
The absolute best preamp does not exist any more than the absolute sound does, with the exception of the magazine that owns that title. Too many variables interact to produce countless impressions and outcomes. With all of the colorations out there---especially those of every instrument and component---the most meaningful scenario of best comes in the form of a question: "What will constitute the best match for my system in terms of the kind of sound that satisfies me most ?" And that doesn't even come close to a definitive and/or collective notion of best. |
Still in my opinion and after 50 years in this hobby starting out in tubes in 1957 and going solid state in 1977.And having worked in the music industry for 30 years I think I have a little knowledge in this area. The FM Acoustic brand is the pinnacle of the audio arts and has been so for some thirty years or more. All cutting edge studios world wide and artist alike own this gear and they would own nothing else. It is the most expensive audio gear on the planet, their client list is a literal whos who of the industry.
No I don't own it , cannot justify that expenditure at my age now. But I am familiar with FM Acoustics gear and I have heard it many times in studio settings as well as in private homes. FM Acoustics is nothing short of totally mesmerizing and a sonic signature that will leave you immersed in each note. Once you hear this gear, you will never forget the experience. Yes their is a best and it is FM Acoustics, nothing and I mean nothing else is even remotely close. But this type of excellence is not for the weak of heart, and for those of us that have to ask how much. If any the respondents to this thread get a chance to audition this gear or actually hear it in its own environment, do so at your own risk. For those of you that harbor the notion the best does not exits. Then you must keep that belief until you hear FM Acoustics. |
The "best" is discernible in so far as one can reproduce music in the home that delivers the hallmarks of a live performance: Wide dynamic range, undistorted frequency extension, wide deep tall soundstaging, timbral accuracy (a viola sounds like a viola etc...). Instruments have certain identifiable sounds and sonic charachteristics, great halls portray instruments in a certain way...the best audio gear should allow one to enter the moment of creation and suspend belief! This is not ice cream, it is music and should be easily identified as such through a great hi-end system with as few limitations and or artifacts as possible...great gear can do this better than other conventional designs. FM acoustics sounds like a professional brand. It has been my experience that individuals "in the business" of making music are usually the worst judges of hi-fidelity equipment...counter-intuitive I know, but they seem to value aspects of sound re-creation that is askew of us mere mortals who savor their labors! |
If cost is no object I'd buy one ss preamp (Gryphon Mirage) and one tube preamp (CAT Legend or Shindo top) and change my sound accordingly. |
I recall FM Acoustics now...it's a swiss boutique manufacturer catering to the exclusive "money is no object/sound is second" club. A tube preamp is a must, amplification is getting better for both camps. |
We just revamped our MP-1 at the beginning of the year and we do think its the best thing out there. FWIW its turned into our best seller- outselling our cheaper preamp 10:1 and outselling the amps too.
I think its better than anything I've heard, including fm acoustics :), *but-* I found that some people want something darker, especially if they are running bad digital, or they want something simpler (our stuff is fully differential and balanced and although works quite well with single-ended amps, its an uphill battle...), and we don't have any transformers in the circuit and there are actually those who will not accept an audio piece if it has no transformers (which I regard as a filter). Then there are those that want remote control, and are willing to sacrifice sound quality to get it.
And finally- I've not heard everything out there. There would then be the question: would I allow that something else is better, given my predisposed position as a designer and manufacturer? I'm not sure I can answer that, and the fact that I've not heard any better over the years can't be evidenciary, as I could be biased or our gear really could be that much better.
So the bottom line seems to be that even if you *know* in your heart of hearts that you have the best, that the reality of the culture is in fact that the best cannot exist! God could have made the preamp, and there would be those to accuse it of being too dark, too bright, too boomy, too bass shy, etc. The "best" does not exist in that world, it only exists by individual declaration.
It would seem to be a hopeless case, as there is therefore no meaning in making improvements, but I have found that when situations arise that seem to have no meaning, you have to play the game all out so as to be a player rather than a mere occurrence, IOW even if the best does not and cannot exist that I choose to try to make the best and do that best I can anyway. Sort of like Sisyphus... |
Atmasphere has a good point, in so much as we all have built in pre-conceptions of what we expect to hear from our home systems. I'll say again however that live music is identifiable as such by even the non-audiophiles among us. The "BEST" gear will allow those "LIVE" characteristics to shine through...micro and macro dynamics, full range extension, large deep airy soundstaging, palpability of solid images, accurate timbre etc... I can appreciate alot of gear, but my ref 3 and HD220 in my system re-creates the live event so well that one can suspend belief that it is in fact a live performance. Reality is of course real and is therefore something we can experience...live music is clearly unique in it's balance of sound and unrestrained nature. Music is clear but not overtly so, it is dynamic as hell but hangs together. it is full of expression and life, it has dimension. Many high end brands try to get it right but most do not pull it all together...they are not the best!! I've gone to the BSO, the Kimmel, the Curtis Institute etc....when I go home I am not totally disappointed. Of course if one has no appreciation of well recorded important music and/or has no live reference point one can find bliss around every corner....ah, ignorance truly is bliss!! |
If God sold a preamp, Tara would be the dealer, and it would be the best without question. Of course, no tubes would be found inside the divine box ;)
Regards, |
Why not take up NAP's and VSO Marketing's offer to try the P12-R in your system on a 30 trail. Yes, now you don't have to wait weeks to get your pre. VSO has them instock. They take CC's and would be happy to end your preamp decisions by allowing you or anyone else to audition this magnificent peice of gear. You can reach VSO at moltz@vsomarketing.com or 201-874-8108.
Hearing what the P12-R can do in your system is the RIGHT way to discover what all those who have already bought this pre now! |
I really think that the First Sound Paramount is worthy of mention and is built like a tank to boot. Anything that has 500,000 microfarads and weighs inat a paltry 120lbs and is only a preamp, may have something going for it. This is a tube beast and I still remember the sonic signiture of my lesser MKII. The 16000 dollar sticker is a slight kicker, but if you want to own the best? E.Go is also a real gentleman and gives amazing service to boot. Hope this helps Dennis |
Jmaldonado, if God made a preamp it wouldn't have transistors in it either :) |
Atmasphere is more correct as it pertains to divine intervention regarding preamps ... I've had tons of both gear (includng the new Krell Evo rig), musc is not made without a great tube preamp involved! |
Dave b, I just wonder if the role of hifi should be to "make music" or to convey the music that is made by the musician/s!? The accuracy of this conveyance (transit...) being a fundamental requirement of achieving high fidelity: the truth/fidelity residing with the musician/s and their performance
Just a thought |
The music which resides on the media of choice for home listening should be re-created to it's fullest measure. Comparison can only be made with live music. Getting the most expression of the artists intent will follow....IMHO tubes in at least the preamp stage are required! |
I think you should audition the latest Spectral reference preamp first to use as a benchmark in your evaluations. |
You might want to look at and listen to the Joule Electra LAP 150 Mk2, which has line and phono stage capabilities for most low output moving coils. I'm extremely impressed with its combination of dynamics and musicality + asking price. I've owned or home auditioned the Supratek Cortese, Shindo Masseto and Audio Note M3, all very fine preamps, but, up to this point, the Joule is the one that has truly won me over. |
Dave b, I'm surprised that preamps such as those from FM Acoustics and other state-of-the-art SS brands, such as the Essential 3150, are not more emphatically praised by you. Your criteria for valuation seem to be spot on and, IMHO, these devices could definitely help you in your drive to realise them. They are not cheap but if you get a chance, do give them a whirl. |
I've heard most of the preamps mentioned in this thread and have owned quite a few others. Also, I've had great results with ARC long term .... not to mention my dealer treats me very nice $$$$$$ SS can sound great on some material but tubes imbue life like no other designs I've experienced. System synergy and musical preferences will drive the results more so than any individual component however...I owned totem forests with a krell 400xi and sony dvd player which sounded freakin amazing in a small room..go figure!! |
I have owned the VTL 7.5 and currently own a cj ART and it sounds sublime.
If I had unlimited budget I would buy the cj ART 3 and compare it to my original ART. would be interesting as the ART is likie a musical instrument. |
Downunder, what is the rest of your system comprised of ? Cables ? CJ seems to be floundering lately...website is not updated, new products come and go in the blink of an eye or they never materialize at all. Balanced connections need not apply as well....value has gone out the window on top of all this. The ART 3 is obviously in response to a failed series of ACT product (1, 2, 3..your out!). ARC is hitting their stride lately and after buying the ref 3 and the hd220 I can understand why. At one time CJ was the new kid on the block, so isn't it ironic that ARC seems to be besting them in design and pricing. |
Dave_b, click on Shane's (Downunder) 'System' link, right next to his moniker, to find out what the rest of his system is.
I also own a ARC Ref 3, but there is no need to belittle the CJ ART preamp. There are many different flavors for many different tastes. Enjoy what you have and be happy.
Cheers,
John |
Yeah, I have great respect for CJ..owned a bit and loved it! I just get the sense that the company is loosing it's focus. |
How about the TRON Syren?
Charlie |
Hi Dave
I agree with you re the cj ACT2. I had it at home and it did not do it for me. Same with the CT5. hence me going back to the ART, which is musically wonderful. I guess that is why its s/h value is more than the ACT2.
I don't think having 3 versions of a pre amp in 10 years is excessive - do you??
ARC have gone thru triple that with the ref pre.
I have heard the PH7 and it is a honey.
That is the great thing about audio, they are so many different routes to personal music satisfaction. |
Hi John
Been a while.
What do you have these days, besides a ref3 pre which by all accounts is a luvely pre amp and easily ARC's best.
have you heard the PH7, sounds wonderful. me i am just a little worried about the 57.5db gain but now I have the ART with quite a bit of gain I will try the PH7 again.
You should put your system on gon.
cheers Shane |
Hi Shane,
Yeah, I guess it has been awhile. I got tired of making all of the changes so I stopped posting my system a couple years ago. It seemed that my 'System' was always obsolete. 8-)
John
PS: I'll PM you with the latest boring details. |
If price is not a major factor, you might want to try the new CAT legend. I have not heard it, but knowing Ken Stevens work, which I highly respect, I would be amazed if it wasn't a world beater. |
I recall FM Acoustics now...it's a swiss boutique manufacturer catering to the exclusive "money is no object/sound is second" club. Hardly. It's a pro equip manufacturer, it's not priced over all others, and the sound quality is superb. Nice quote however. Likewise, atma's pre is also superb sounding, and the latest CAT is also nice. Many nice products out there -- to little money. |
Shane,
Which CJ Art do you have? What do you like about the ART that the ACT lacks? Bob |
If Andrew the author of this thread hasn't found a preamp by now, he is not likely to do so. In the past seven months of this post, we have flogged this to death, and has turned more into a blog than anything else. All have made valid points in regards to personal choices, based hopefully on real ownership and/or have actually heard thier recommendations in real world environments. I believe it is time to move on or at least get back to the solid substance of this thread, although I belive that Andrew by now has made his choice. Well done to all the respondents of this post. |
I do believe that the person that initiated the thread fully expected us to chime in with what we feel is the best preamp money can buy. This being based on our own personal experience. Therefore, my uphill climb has led me to believe that my Messenger preamp that I currently own is the best. |
I would buy an Audio Aero with analogue inputs and volume control. |
I'll bet you sell AA sounds real.
What say you? |
I do sell Audio Aero!!!!! Probably better than most of the preamps he is looking at. Plus he upgrades his CD Player as well. Is that a problem for you?????? |
Hi Barayni
Good question. I have series 1 ART.
I would suggest if you have never heard the prem 16/17 or ART one would be very happy with the ACT2/CT5.
For me the prem16/ART series has a more organic musical presentation.
the ACT2 does the hifi aspects of music better like tight bass, more extended treble.
But the ART to my ears is just more natural sounding and lets the natural tonal qualities of instruments become easier to hear. Soundstage is just huge with the ART as well. A Bad recording will still sound bad, however the ART seems to make it easier to listen to, without making everything slow and veiled.
I would luv to hear the ART3, however I may end up preferring the original - who knows thou. |
>>Is that a problem for you??????<<
When you fail to disclose your affiliation with AA, it is a problem for everyone reading this thread.
Got it?
Regarding your assertion that the AA linestage is better than the others under consideration you appear to have much to learn as it pales in comparison to all of them.
Got it? |
Downunder,
Thanks for the comparison. Let me ask you if you have compared the ARC REF 3 to the ART. I was wondering if you have heard any of the Supratek preamps since you are Downunder? Thanks Bob |
I have audio aero capitole mk2 cd player , direct in my amplifier, I have tryied 3 pre amplifiers before - Audio research reference 3, audiopax model 5 and gamut d3, the AR ref 3 was a little better than the preamplifier that comes with cdplayer , the others did not add nothing, but I think in buy another cd player with SACD so I will need one preamplifier,my list became small: joule 150 mk2, wyetech opal or pearl, supratek . But now there is a MBL dealer in my country , what about the MBL preamplifiers 6011D or 5011. |
NO Baranyi, I have not heard the ref 3. I have heard the previous ref series and for my tastes a little too forward and closer to SS sound than I would like.
An audio buddy of mine in Melb owns a suptratek and he likes it a lot, however I live in Sydney, so have never heard it. They suptratek guy, Mick is based in Perth, which is 4000 miles away, so he might as well be in the USA :) |
Hi Downunder,
I have not heard the Ref. 3 in my own system, but, I've heard it at shows and dealerships. It is much less analytical, dry and lean sounding than prior ARC linestages (other ARC linestages sounded more "solid state" than almost any solid state gear to me). I don't know how the Ref. 3 compares to the CJ ACT 3, but I bet the sound is now much closer than in the past. |
But now there is a MBL dealer in my country , what about the MBL preamplifiers 6011D or 5011 In absolute terms, the 6011 then the 5011. But, I really can't tell what you need: i.e. both are very versatile and practical with lots of functionalities and... good. So, you may not need a 6011. Both are exquisitely engineered by the way. I would also *assume* both are better than the Capitole's embedded pre... but don't know. Really, you must try them. |
HI Larry
I would hope the cj ART3 at $25k would bring something unique to the musical equation that the original ART or REF3 don't currently bring :-) |
Hi Downunder, there are at least 5 other tube preamps I can think of that will do that. If I think about it, I can probably name more. Any reason why you limit yourself to the CJ? |
I am not sure what your point is Atmasphere.
I can think of plenty of tube pre amps as well. I have tried VTL7.5, ARC ref 1 & 2, CAT, cary 98P and new cj ACT2 / CT5.
I much prefer the musical presentation of the original ART/prem16. That is why I have come back to cj pre amp after 3 years of not limiting myself to cj. |
Dave b, excuse my long delay but I only just read your responses. Have you heard the FM Acoustic pre's or the Essential 3150 and, if so, which FM Acoustic pre's and what were your impressions of these and the Essential - particularly in comparison with your tubes pre?
I'm just curious because I feel that these really do bring something quite unique to the table. |
